What my counselor told me (long)
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What my counselor told me (long)
Many months ago, I had a particularly productive session with my counselor, and came home and wrote down what she had said. I don't know if I shared this with you then -- if I did, I apologize (I couldn't find it when I did a search).
So maybe some of this applies to you and maybe some of it doesn't. But I thought there was so much wisdom in what she said that it would be sort of criminal to keep it to myself.
~ Minimize communication. A person like your AXH doesn’t so much care that he’s unhappy as long as he can still make you unhappy, or, indeed, trigger you to express any emotion of any kind. If there’s something that drives a manipulator bonkers, it’s when they can’t manipulate. When they can’t make you angry, sad, happy, or behave in the way they want, they get frustrated. In some cases, an ongoing fight is the last remainder of a marriage that they hang on to. When they give you a tirade, they want a reaction. If they don’t get one, they’ll eventually stop. So communicate only necessary facts. Be as boring as you can.
~ Dogs that get intermittent treats at the table beg for longer, and are harder to retrain, than dogs who ALWAYS get treats at the table. This applies to all mammals; this is the driver behind gambling – that "sometimes, someone wins, and it could be me, this time." So any time you feel like “but I have to react to this,” remember that. Don’t ever react. Just the facts. Straight up.
~ When you feel yourself reacting emotionally to something he communicates, ask yourself:
1) Am I in danger?
2) Is anyone else in danger?
3) Is he in danger?
If you can answer “no” to all three questions, go on to these:
1) What is the emotion he’s expressing?
2) Is that an emotion that human beings occasionally have? (Ignore whether his emotional reaction is well-founded or not)
3) Is it dangerous for him to have that emotion?
Since the answer to 2) and 3) are usually “yes” and “no” respectively, then you can move on with your life. Use the same method when the kids relay that “Dad is really upset because [fill in the blank].” Ask them if they can identify his emotion, if it’s normal for people to feel that emotion sometimes, and if they answer “yes,” tell them “well, so he’s feeling X and that’s normal for people to do every once in a while, so that’s not our problem, then, is it? He’s doing what people do sometimes, feeling X. How was school today?”
~ EXPECT, with no doubt, that when you stop reacting to his direct communications, that he will start indirectly communicating through the kids.
Use the same principle there: Do not react. Say something non-committal like “that’s interesting” and then redirect: “Hey, I ran into your old Kindergarten teacher on the street today; she was wondering how you were doing!” If they really, really push you, say, “I don’t think I have an answer to that right now. I will have to think about it.” And then change the subject.
He WILL try to get to you through the kids. Count on it. Remember that kids like to get approval (don’t we all?) and if they learn that mining you for information or reaction and bringing it back to him earns them trips to the ice cream stores or movie theater, they will very quickly become expert spies.
Your job is not to set him straight through them; your job is to model healthy relationships and parenting for them. And the way you protect them from his manipulation is by not playing along. Remember that manipulation takes a manipulator and someone who allows themselves to be manipulated. If you don’t play along, the manipulation attempts fall flat. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
~ People tend to shy away from sick behaviors and thinking patterns and move towards healthier ones, if both are modeled in their lives. Pathologia isn’t a friendly inviting place; the land of healthy thinking is.
Don’t waste time explaining to them how his thinking is diseased, focus on modeling healthy thinking. When they come home and say “Dad says you’re a filthy dirty ***** because you’re dating again,” don’t even let them see you twitch. Your response should be, “Well, I guess that’s one way of looking at it – here’s how I look at it, because I think this is a healthier way to see it: People like to be with other people who treat them with respect and make them laugh. I like people around me that are fun to be with and who are nice to me. Don’t you? So [insert offending boyfriend’s name here] is nice to me, and he’s nice to you, and we do fun things with him, and he makes me laugh – and that’s why I like to spend time with him.”
~ She said she’s had kids as clients who grew up with two addict parents who basically left the kids to fend for themselves – and when she was surprised at how “normal” the kids were, one of them said “we watch a lot of TV and we really wish our parents were more like the Huxtables in the Cosby Show, so we try to be more like the Huxtable kids, because even if our parents aren’t like the parents on TV, we feel better when we behave like those kids.” (Who’d have thunk that TV could be a role model???)
~ STOP FEELING GUILTY! Guilt doesn’t travel alone: Guilt comes with resentment (against people for “making me feel guilty”) and also usually drags shame along with it. Guilt (“I must have done something wrong”); resentment (“They’re making me feel guilty”); shame (“I’m an awful person”). When you feel guilty, ask yourself “Did I do something wrong?” and if the answer is “No,” then you need to drop the guilt. Just because someone else feels wronged and hurt doesn’t mean you did anything wrong.
So maybe some of this applies to you and maybe some of it doesn't. But I thought there was so much wisdom in what she said that it would be sort of criminal to keep it to myself.
~ Minimize communication. A person like your AXH doesn’t so much care that he’s unhappy as long as he can still make you unhappy, or, indeed, trigger you to express any emotion of any kind. If there’s something that drives a manipulator bonkers, it’s when they can’t manipulate. When they can’t make you angry, sad, happy, or behave in the way they want, they get frustrated. In some cases, an ongoing fight is the last remainder of a marriage that they hang on to. When they give you a tirade, they want a reaction. If they don’t get one, they’ll eventually stop. So communicate only necessary facts. Be as boring as you can.
~ Dogs that get intermittent treats at the table beg for longer, and are harder to retrain, than dogs who ALWAYS get treats at the table. This applies to all mammals; this is the driver behind gambling – that "sometimes, someone wins, and it could be me, this time." So any time you feel like “but I have to react to this,” remember that. Don’t ever react. Just the facts. Straight up.
~ When you feel yourself reacting emotionally to something he communicates, ask yourself:
1) Am I in danger?
2) Is anyone else in danger?
3) Is he in danger?
If you can answer “no” to all three questions, go on to these:
1) What is the emotion he’s expressing?
2) Is that an emotion that human beings occasionally have? (Ignore whether his emotional reaction is well-founded or not)
3) Is it dangerous for him to have that emotion?
Since the answer to 2) and 3) are usually “yes” and “no” respectively, then you can move on with your life. Use the same method when the kids relay that “Dad is really upset because [fill in the blank].” Ask them if they can identify his emotion, if it’s normal for people to feel that emotion sometimes, and if they answer “yes,” tell them “well, so he’s feeling X and that’s normal for people to do every once in a while, so that’s not our problem, then, is it? He’s doing what people do sometimes, feeling X. How was school today?”
~ EXPECT, with no doubt, that when you stop reacting to his direct communications, that he will start indirectly communicating through the kids.
Use the same principle there: Do not react. Say something non-committal like “that’s interesting” and then redirect: “Hey, I ran into your old Kindergarten teacher on the street today; she was wondering how you were doing!” If they really, really push you, say, “I don’t think I have an answer to that right now. I will have to think about it.” And then change the subject.
He WILL try to get to you through the kids. Count on it. Remember that kids like to get approval (don’t we all?) and if they learn that mining you for information or reaction and bringing it back to him earns them trips to the ice cream stores or movie theater, they will very quickly become expert spies.
Your job is not to set him straight through them; your job is to model healthy relationships and parenting for them. And the way you protect them from his manipulation is by not playing along. Remember that manipulation takes a manipulator and someone who allows themselves to be manipulated. If you don’t play along, the manipulation attempts fall flat. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
~ People tend to shy away from sick behaviors and thinking patterns and move towards healthier ones, if both are modeled in their lives. Pathologia isn’t a friendly inviting place; the land of healthy thinking is.
Don’t waste time explaining to them how his thinking is diseased, focus on modeling healthy thinking. When they come home and say “Dad says you’re a filthy dirty ***** because you’re dating again,” don’t even let them see you twitch. Your response should be, “Well, I guess that’s one way of looking at it – here’s how I look at it, because I think this is a healthier way to see it: People like to be with other people who treat them with respect and make them laugh. I like people around me that are fun to be with and who are nice to me. Don’t you? So [insert offending boyfriend’s name here] is nice to me, and he’s nice to you, and we do fun things with him, and he makes me laugh – and that’s why I like to spend time with him.”
~ She said she’s had kids as clients who grew up with two addict parents who basically left the kids to fend for themselves – and when she was surprised at how “normal” the kids were, one of them said “we watch a lot of TV and we really wish our parents were more like the Huxtables in the Cosby Show, so we try to be more like the Huxtable kids, because even if our parents aren’t like the parents on TV, we feel better when we behave like those kids.” (Who’d have thunk that TV could be a role model???)
~ STOP FEELING GUILTY! Guilt doesn’t travel alone: Guilt comes with resentment (against people for “making me feel guilty”) and also usually drags shame along with it. Guilt (“I must have done something wrong”); resentment (“They’re making me feel guilty”); shame (“I’m an awful person”). When you feel guilty, ask yourself “Did I do something wrong?” and if the answer is “No,” then you need to drop the guilt. Just because someone else feels wronged and hurt doesn’t mean you did anything wrong.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by lillamy 
~ STOP FEELING GUILTY! Guilt doesn’t travel alone: Guilt comes with resentment (against people for “making me feel guilty”) and also usually drags shame along with it. Guilt (“I must have done something wrong”); resentment (“They’re making me feel guilty”); shame (“I’m an awful person”). When you feel guilty, ask yourself “Did I do something wrong?” and if the answer is “No,” then you need to drop the guilt. Just because someone else feels wronged and hurt doesn’t mean you did anything wrong.
I met an old friend for lunch today. She commented on how good I look - "lighter" is how she phrased it. Several other people recently have commented on the same thing. Folks, I JUST GOT DIVORCED! Kinda tells us something, eh?!!
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Use the same method when the kids relay that “Dad is really upset because [fill in the blank].” Ask them if they can identify his emotion, if it’s normal for people to feel that emotion sometimes, and if they answer “yes,” tell them “well, so he’s feeling X and that’s normal for people to do every once in a while, so that’s not our problem, then, is it? He’s doing what people do sometimes, feeling X. How was school today?”
Thank you Illy
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Thank you so much for that! My AM hasn't been able to talk to my kids since an incident about a month ago that made me go NC, but I have no doubts that she'll keep trying to find ways. She's been known to say, "Well, they love me more than you!" in front of all of us, so at least now I have an idea of what to say that's not angry or inappropriate (and generally unhealthy!).
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