Al-Anon and Religion and a rant.
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Al-Anon and Religion and a rant.
Morning everyone.
I have been running into an issue lately and it my be just me. It just seems to me that recently that going to Al-Anon has been feeling less like group therapy and more like going to church. It feels like Al-Anon is non-religious only in the sense that it welcomes all different types of Christians.
There has been a lot of sharing that is very heavy God and even Jesus related that no one comments on other than to agree yet when I share experience about how the first 2 steps tie very tightly to the first 3 noble truths of Buddhism I am shut down and told there is no religion in Al-Anon. Even though up to a few months ago we closed both meetings I go to with the Lord's prayer.
I can handle people sharing how their faith ( a religious term) helps them to cope but I it really ticked me off when Buddhism is mentioned that it gets shut down. It was a gentle reminder but it was clear that my experience is not valid for the rest of the group.
Also there are things going around about how the World Service is looking at delisting meetings that do not follow what they consider to be the Al-Anon standard.
All in all I would highly recommend Al-Anon to people who consider themselves some sort of Christian or who are in crisis but beyond that I'm not so sure.
Thanks for letting me rant and BTW all comments are welcome.
Your friend,
I have been running into an issue lately and it my be just me. It just seems to me that recently that going to Al-Anon has been feeling less like group therapy and more like going to church. It feels like Al-Anon is non-religious only in the sense that it welcomes all different types of Christians.
There has been a lot of sharing that is very heavy God and even Jesus related that no one comments on other than to agree yet when I share experience about how the first 2 steps tie very tightly to the first 3 noble truths of Buddhism I am shut down and told there is no religion in Al-Anon. Even though up to a few months ago we closed both meetings I go to with the Lord's prayer.
I can handle people sharing how their faith ( a religious term) helps them to cope but I it really ticked me off when Buddhism is mentioned that it gets shut down. It was a gentle reminder but it was clear that my experience is not valid for the rest of the group.
Also there are things going around about how the World Service is looking at delisting meetings that do not follow what they consider to be the Al-Anon standard.
All in all I would highly recommend Al-Anon to people who consider themselves some sort of Christian or who are in crisis but beyond that I'm not so sure.
Thanks for letting me rant and BTW all comments are welcome.
Your friend,
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
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Rant heard and understood!
I have heard many 12 step people talk about this issue. It's not uncommon. It can lead to a lot of dissention in a group, but most often it seems to lead to the people who feel as you do leaving the group often without saying anything about it to the group, or mentioning it in passing to a few friends.
The only way it is likely to change is if you bring it up. If the subject of HP comes up, you can express your feelings, or do so at the next business or groups conscience meeting.
I can understand why people are hesitant to do this, and often choose to keep quiet over it or occasionally rant to friends. It's a situation that might be met with resistance, anger or shunning, but it is also likely that many people will agree and have been quietly fuming over it, INCLUDING some Christians.
It's a touchy topic but ultimately is best for the group as a whole if specific religion and concept of HP are not "preached" in the rooms.
In my shares I tried to be generic by saying "The HP of my understanding" or a certain manner in which my faith or spiritual practice supported my recovery but keeping the details to myself.
It is critical to follow the steps and traditions to keep recovery available to everyone. Though confrontation feels risky, addressing this issue is a gift given to the group and the newcomer.
I have heard many 12 step people talk about this issue. It's not uncommon. It can lead to a lot of dissention in a group, but most often it seems to lead to the people who feel as you do leaving the group often without saying anything about it to the group, or mentioning it in passing to a few friends.
The only way it is likely to change is if you bring it up. If the subject of HP comes up, you can express your feelings, or do so at the next business or groups conscience meeting.
I can understand why people are hesitant to do this, and often choose to keep quiet over it or occasionally rant to friends. It's a situation that might be met with resistance, anger or shunning, but it is also likely that many people will agree and have been quietly fuming over it, INCLUDING some Christians.
It's a touchy topic but ultimately is best for the group as a whole if specific religion and concept of HP are not "preached" in the rooms.
In my shares I tried to be generic by saying "The HP of my understanding" or a certain manner in which my faith or spiritual practice supported my recovery but keeping the details to myself.
It is critical to follow the steps and traditions to keep recovery available to everyone. Though confrontation feels risky, addressing this issue is a gift given to the group and the newcomer.
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Originally Posted by m1k3 
I have been running into an issue lately and it my be just me. It just seems to me that recently that going to Al-Anon has been feeling less like group therapy and more like going to church.
Originally Posted by m1k3
It feels like Al-Anon is non-religious only in the sense that it welcomes all different types of Christians.
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Mike, I prefer to come here and talk to my sponsor rather than go to meetings bc of that very issue...
I was raised Catholic, am very spiritual etc... BUT I dislike immensely that EVERY meeting I have been to has way too much God talk and ends with the Lords prayer. I know I can take what I like and leave the rest, but I simply don't want that in a meeting-- it doesn't work for me.
So, I don't have any wisdom per se... I just wanted to tell you I understand and can relate.
I think that the 12 steps are great. I benefit from them a great deal. I just think that the emphasis on religion is something that individuals in the groups make far bigger than it needs to be. The Big Book certainly doesn't focus obsessively on God. And I wish that al anon didn't either. I thought it was just me who found this frustrating but I don't think it is. It's every meeting in my area and it makes me think it's pretty common.
So, my solution is that I seek out people and forms of the program that work better for me... SR works well as does my sponsor.
Thanks for your post Mike...
I was raised Catholic, am very spiritual etc... BUT I dislike immensely that EVERY meeting I have been to has way too much God talk and ends with the Lords prayer. I know I can take what I like and leave the rest, but I simply don't want that in a meeting-- it doesn't work for me.
So, I don't have any wisdom per se... I just wanted to tell you I understand and can relate.
I think that the 12 steps are great. I benefit from them a great deal. I just think that the emphasis on religion is something that individuals in the groups make far bigger than it needs to be. The Big Book certainly doesn't focus obsessively on God. And I wish that al anon didn't either. I thought it was just me who found this frustrating but I don't think it is. It's every meeting in my area and it makes me think it's pretty common.
So, my solution is that I seek out people and forms of the program that work better for me... SR works well as does my sponsor.
Thanks for your post Mike...
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Mike,
IMO maybe this is something that could be handled initially with a word to the groups management, and see how they handle it.
I would not be shocked if it did not do a bit of goo and I understand your frustration. I have not considered myself a christian for a long time, I try to be respectful of all religions, but many times I have felt that it's a one way street.
Big hugs,
Bill
IMO maybe this is something that could be handled initially with a word to the groups management, and see how they handle it.
I would not be shocked if it did not do a bit of goo and I understand your frustration. I have not considered myself a christian for a long time, I try to be respectful of all religions, but many times I have felt that it's a one way street.
Big hugs,
Bill
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In most of the groups and meetings that I have attended, most people refer to their "higher power" or "the god of my understanding". The focus is more spiritual and NOT about religion. My current group has a few atheists who continue to attend, and they seem to use the group itself as their higher power.
I had to go to a variety of meetings until I found one that "fit" for me. The WSO (world service organization) and even the regional representatives are tasked with making sure that meetings and groups adhere to the Al Anon principles, but they cannot be everywhere at once.
What worked for me: going to one or 2 meetings to see if I heard some strong recovery in the room. At first I wasn't sure what that sounded like, but over time I learned I wanted to be at meetings where (1) the people who spoke kept the focus on themselves and not their Alcoholic and (2) where it seemed everyone was allowed to speak without being interrupted (no cross talk) and (3) where it seemed people were respected and (4) where it didn't seem that one or 2 people ruled or lorded over the meeting.
Again, that's what worked for me. As I grew in my own self esteem and recovery, I found that some meetings were better for me than others.
I wish you well on your recovery journey.
I had to go to a variety of meetings until I found one that "fit" for me. The WSO (world service organization) and even the regional representatives are tasked with making sure that meetings and groups adhere to the Al Anon principles, but they cannot be everywhere at once.
What worked for me: going to one or 2 meetings to see if I heard some strong recovery in the room. At first I wasn't sure what that sounded like, but over time I learned I wanted to be at meetings where (1) the people who spoke kept the focus on themselves and not their Alcoholic and (2) where it seemed everyone was allowed to speak without being interrupted (no cross talk) and (3) where it seemed people were respected and (4) where it didn't seem that one or 2 people ruled or lorded over the meeting.
Again, that's what worked for me. As I grew in my own self esteem and recovery, I found that some meetings were better for me than others.
I wish you well on your recovery journey.
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I'm really sad to hear that, Mike. My group meets in a church, but so does Weightwatchers, and there's about the same level of Christianity in both groups.
One thing I have done in the past is bring up issues with the group as a topic of conversation. "What do you do when people run roughshod over your experiences and try to force their own solutions on you?" for example.
I know there is always a risk when you get a group of people with the same faith or even experience in a group that they tend to take over. My group turned into a support group for spouses with terminal cancer for about six months. But that was OK because there was still things to learn. I could still practice the "take what you can"...
I can see how that would be harder if my experience would have been shushed and discounted...
One thing I have done in the past is bring up issues with the group as a topic of conversation. "What do you do when people run roughshod over your experiences and try to force their own solutions on you?" for example.
I know there is always a risk when you get a group of people with the same faith or even experience in a group that they tend to take over. My group turned into a support group for spouses with terminal cancer for about six months. But that was OK because there was still things to learn. I could still practice the "take what you can"...
I can see how that would be harder if my experience would have been shushed and discounted...
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On a bit of a separate note, I have found that the meetings with the greatest amt of overt religion talk ALSO are made up of a lot of members who focus 99% of their attn on the behavior of their Alcoholic vs themself. Talk about "I will pray for my alcoholic w, h, sister, brother etc... so that they can be as enlightened as me".
I think there's a direct correlation between the pompous attitudes like that one I describe above and a lack of recovery... Maybe the focus on religion is a way to avoid looking at ones self?
I think there's a direct correlation between the pompous attitudes like that one I describe above and a lack of recovery... Maybe the focus on religion is a way to avoid looking at ones self?
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I think the point that annoyed me the most was not that some people came up to me after the meeting and pointed out my error but that I was interrupted in the middle of my sharing. As an ACOA that was something that happened to me so much growing up that my opinion would be discounted before I even got to finish.
I know this is a trigger of mine but still grrrrrrr.
I go for help and support. I don't go to be put in my place.
I know this is a trigger of mine but still grrrrrrr.
I go for help and support. I don't go to be put in my place.
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That actually surprises me more than that there were people focused on their God... I have never, ever heard someone's sharing be interrupted because it was deemed "inappropriate"... And believe me, there have been times when I've prayed that someone WOULD ask a person to stop... (usually because someone cpletrly hogs the airspace for way too long to allow everyone to speak).
Do you have other meeting options?
Do you have other meeting options?
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Originally Posted by m1k3
I think the point that annoyed me the most was not that some people came up to me after the meeting and pointed out my error but that I was interrupted in the middle of my sharing.
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Originally Posted by traceydixon
I am Buddhist.... finding my way through all this too.
You will appreciate this. What I was going to share was how the first 3 of the four noble truths were almost identical to steps 1 and 2.
1. There is a problem and it is suffering/discontentment (dukkha)
2. The problem has a cause.
3. There is a cure for the problem.
That was all I was going to share and I didn't even get that far because I was promoting "religion". And this was raised by someone, an old timer, who didn't have a clue about Buddhism.
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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I agree with you that this is an issue. I was at a meeting last week, where we read from "Alanon approved literature," (not sure which book) and in it, someone read a bible verse ("Lord, make me an instrument . . .") . . .AA and Alanon derive from Christianity.
At the higher levels they should be addressing this. I understand why they don't want you to discuss Buddhism in a meeting, the same way they would probably not allow someone to promote Christianity. But I do believe they should be actively working to update the program to make it more generic.
At the higher levels they should be addressing this. I understand why they don't want you to discuss Buddhism in a meeting, the same way they would probably not allow someone to promote Christianity. But I do believe they should be actively working to update the program to make it more generic.
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I'm sorry for the experience you had, Mike, and what they did was wrong.
Perhaps if there are other groups in the area, it's time to give them a try?
I had a huge falling out with my home AA group last year, and although I still do attend off and on, it's not the same. Unfortunately it's the only group in town.
Many new AA and Alanon groups have formed because members have become dissatisfied with the loss of the true purpose, and have started their own.
Pray for those people who were so rude to you. They need it.
Sending hugs of support.
Perhaps if there are other groups in the area, it's time to give them a try?
I had a huge falling out with my home AA group last year, and although I still do attend off and on, it's not the same. Unfortunately it's the only group in town.
Many new AA and Alanon groups have formed because members have become dissatisfied with the loss of the true purpose, and have started their own.
Pray for those people who were so rude to you. They need it.
Sending hugs of support.
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Thankfully we don't get all of that here, just the 'God as we understand him' phrase. I don't think I would feel obliged to say the prayer anyway. If I were in your position Mike I would make a point of speaking out for your own beliefs, which are the only valid ones for you and therefore essential to your own recovery. For me there is a spiritual dimension to life-but I find it more in art and music I suppose. I don't want someone else's beliefs thrust upon me-so I can see exactly why you feel this.
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I am with Freedom on this one - find a new group. Interrupting you in a share was wrong. Pointing out the religious tie to you and not acknowledging it to others was wrong. That said, there are plenty of "sick" people in Al-Anon, just as there are everywhere. My home group was (is) heavy on the religion and meets in a church. It didn't bother me until I started getting pressure to attend services from some old-timers who mistook my comments about religion (or lack thereof) and spirituality (which I have plenty of) as a request for religious guidance. I started going to other meetings around town after that.
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Great topic!
With 20 people in a room it isn't even possible to agree on a place to go out to eat. IMO AA and Alanon has to be open enough for everyone. So, how do you not run people off that aren't religious and keep the ones that are... No easy answer except balance and respect. IMO with groups, keep things to a personal level and talk in general terms as to welcome everyone. Quoting from the bible has it's time and place. Not everyone in their journey knows average balance or even has a clue. Acceptance is key!!! That goes for me and the other guy who isn't saying or doing what I want..
With 20 people in a room it isn't even possible to agree on a place to go out to eat. IMO AA and Alanon has to be open enough for everyone. So, how do you not run people off that aren't religious and keep the ones that are... No easy answer except balance and respect. IMO with groups, keep things to a personal level and talk in general terms as to welcome everyone. Quoting from the bible has it's time and place. Not everyone in their journey knows average balance or even has a clue. Acceptance is key!!! That goes for me and the other guy who isn't saying or doing what I want..
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Mike I am sorry you had to experience that, however, yes there are some meetings like that in both Alanon and AA.
You know that most new meetings are started on a resentment and a coffee pot? Well they are. I have started several that way, one AA meeting in particular titled "God as WE understand him/her." And over 24 years later I understand it is still going strong. lol
My point is this, I truly feel sorry for folks like that, that their reality is so limited. I personally talk about my HP and intentionally make 'slips' about The Great Spirit. Am I looking for a reaction? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
When I attend a meeting a few times, be it AA or Alanon, and I start hearing things, like:
"in the name of Jesus, amen."
bible versus
etc
I don't go back. I cannot abide 'bible thumpers'.
AA and Alanon are not about me foisting my belief/religion on another. AA and Alanon are about 'like' (same problems) folks coming together to use 12 beautiful steps to change themselves.
So, I would suggest you either find some other meetings, or start one of your own. You will be far from the first to do that, and I suspect far from the last also.
I guess I really do not give a 'rat's azz' about what other people think of me, because the last time something like that was 'pulled' on me in a meeting, I thanked the person, when they were done, for their opinion and continued with my share, roflmao.
The person tried to 'engage' me after the meeting and I politely replied that we could discuss this further at the 'business meeting' after the meeting at the end of the month. She never showed up for the business meeting and missed about 6 weeks of meetings before she returned and never said another word about my or anyone else's HP again.
AA and Aanon have both given me the courage to 'share' what I feel in any given moment whether anyone 'gets it' or not. Sometimes what i share, when I share is because I NEED to hear it.
So again I am sorry that this happened to you. Just remember AA and/or Alanon meetings are just 'mini' versions of that Big Wide World we live in, there are all 'kinds' of folks in both.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
You know that most new meetings are started on a resentment and a coffee pot? Well they are. I have started several that way, one AA meeting in particular titled "God as WE understand him/her." And over 24 years later I understand it is still going strong. lol
My point is this, I truly feel sorry for folks like that, that their reality is so limited. I personally talk about my HP and intentionally make 'slips' about The Great Spirit. Am I looking for a reaction? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
When I attend a meeting a few times, be it AA or Alanon, and I start hearing things, like:
"in the name of Jesus, amen."
bible versus
etc
I don't go back. I cannot abide 'bible thumpers'.
AA and Alanon are not about me foisting my belief/religion on another. AA and Alanon are about 'like' (same problems) folks coming together to use 12 beautiful steps to change themselves.
So, I would suggest you either find some other meetings, or start one of your own. You will be far from the first to do that, and I suspect far from the last also.
I guess I really do not give a 'rat's azz' about what other people think of me, because the last time something like that was 'pulled' on me in a meeting, I thanked the person, when they were done, for their opinion and continued with my share, roflmao.
The person tried to 'engage' me after the meeting and I politely replied that we could discuss this further at the 'business meeting' after the meeting at the end of the month. She never showed up for the business meeting and missed about 6 weeks of meetings before she returned and never said another word about my or anyone else's HP again.
AA and Aanon have both given me the courage to 'share' what I feel in any given moment whether anyone 'gets it' or not. Sometimes what i share, when I share is because I NEED to hear it.
So again I am sorry that this happened to you. Just remember AA and/or Alanon meetings are just 'mini' versions of that Big Wide World we live in, there are all 'kinds' of folks in both.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
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