asking for help in 12 step programmes
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asking for help in 12 step programmes
I do have an occasional difficult time--and I admit it. But as far as I can tell in 12-step programs you are not supposed to help someone having problems with cravings because their problem started long before the actual cravings. Good to know, but not very useful.
It makes no sense to me. Its like asking for water a half-hour before you are thirsty because you know that the request will be refused the moment you actual are thirsty.
Fortunately, non-addicts have less rules about when to help, so I can always talk to a friend when I am going through a rough time. Not sure if that counts as "help," but then again, it works for me.
It makes no sense to me. Its like asking for water a half-hour before you are thirsty because you know that the request will be refused the moment you actual are thirsty.
Fortunately, non-addicts have less rules about when to help, so I can always talk to a friend when I am going through a rough time. Not sure if that counts as "help," but then again, it works for me.
Last edited by Dee74; 11-27-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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This may be a stupid question, but what exactly does help mean in this context? I never really understood what one is supposed to be asking for. I know it is not "help getting through the night." I know it is not help with the steps (since that is supposed to be coming from a sponsor). So what exactly are people in 12-step groups supposed to be asking for from other group members?
Looking back at my post from yesterday I can see I felt angry. But I realized that I am also ignorant.
Looking back at my post from yesterday I can see I felt angry. But I realized that I am also ignorant.
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There are two reasons AA's call other AA's. First it is good to make contact with someone who understands what your really saying and feeling. Normal drinkers CAN'T.
Second, when we feel like drinking, by calling another AA, they can help us think it through, give us support, and overcome the insanity of picking up. That's why it's important to have a lot of numbers in case the first (couple) of people don't answer. Also, by calling when we don't have a craving it gets us into the habit of calling making it easier to call when we have an urge.
Second, when we feel like drinking, by calling another AA, they can help us think it through, give us support, and overcome the insanity of picking up. That's why it's important to have a lot of numbers in case the first (couple) of people don't answer. Also, by calling when we don't have a craving it gets us into the habit of calling making it easier to call when we have an urge.
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The whole calling when you want to drink/use seems to be a question. I was always told NOT to do that since it could endanger others to hear something like that. Or is that only something you are not supposed to do at meetings?
I have to admit that in all my years in the rooms, I never got all the rules straight. This is probably weighing particularly heavily on me now since I am having trouble this holiday and all my friends have gone off this year to be with family so I am really on my own for the first time in years.
I have to admit that in all my years in the rooms, I never got all the rules straight. This is probably weighing particularly heavily on me now since I am having trouble this holiday and all my friends have gone off this year to be with family so I am really on my own for the first time in years.
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Tough day. I thought I was over these. I do know that you are not supposed to ask for short term solutions for getting through a day like today. (The usual answer was "work the steps"--to which I said "In the next hour?")
But I wish you could. I think it is great that 12-step programs have a long-term solution. But I just wish someone had some short-term solution to staying clean for the next 12-hours.
But I wish you could. I think it is great that 12-step programs have a long-term solution. But I just wish someone had some short-term solution to staying clean for the next 12-hours.
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I have not seen any of this thread in the Big Book (basic textbook for AA). What the Big Book promises me is a daily reprieve contingent on fit spiritual condition...btw-it gives me precise, clear cut directions on staying in fit spiritual condition. Today I go to AA to give it away...I have to give it away to get it!!! Perhaps consider trying some other meetings and reading the first 164 pages of our text book. 
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I spent over 7 years in a number of meetings in two towns. And true there was little consistency to what was said, there was also very little in the way of practical help. In fact, handholding someone through cravings was always frowned upon.
Even here, I need help getting through today and someone says I should "work the steps" one moment at a time. Okay.....what exactly does that mean? How do you do that? It is a nice koan to contemplate. But it is not something that translates into practical action. Maybe it is being suggested that I sit and making a list of my personality flaws? Is that what is meant by working the steps right at this moment? Maybe that helps some people, but it does not work for me.
I have met a number of terrific people on this site. I think the more positive tone here and lack of blaming keeps me coming back here. It is genuinely helpful. After realizing that most of my relapses happened within a half-hour of leaving a meeting and most of the times when I made it through, happened when I wrote here--well that told me that I needed a more positive path.
But I have to admit that the loneliness and isolation I felt in 12-step meetings may not be as great here---but it is there a little. I am feeling it today.
Even here, I need help getting through today and someone says I should "work the steps" one moment at a time. Okay.....what exactly does that mean? How do you do that? It is a nice koan to contemplate. But it is not something that translates into practical action. Maybe it is being suggested that I sit and making a list of my personality flaws? Is that what is meant by working the steps right at this moment? Maybe that helps some people, but it does not work for me.
I have met a number of terrific people on this site. I think the more positive tone here and lack of blaming keeps me coming back here. It is genuinely helpful. After realizing that most of my relapses happened within a half-hour of leaving a meeting and most of the times when I made it through, happened when I wrote here--well that told me that I needed a more positive path.
But I have to admit that the loneliness and isolation I felt in 12-step meetings may not be as great here---but it is there a little. I am feeling it today.
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I'm sorry if you feel alone here, even slightly.
Like I said I'm not in AA so I really have no answers to your questions.
I do know you've felt this way about AA for a long time though - have you explored other recovery schools of thought like SMART, LifeRing, RationalRecovery etc. MF?
D
Like I said I'm not in AA so I really have no answers to your questions.
I do know you've felt this way about AA for a long time though - have you explored other recovery schools of thought like SMART, LifeRing, RationalRecovery etc. MF?
D
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I have read the first 164 pages of the BB. And strangely enough, I have come to realize the principles on which my recovery is built today, (brutal honesty with self, rigorous self-examination, service to others, and connection to something greater than myself) are pretty close to what 12-step programs and their literature profess to be aiming for.
But I found little of this in meetings. There was too wide a distance between the theory and practice. In practice I found that it was all about honesty about the faults of others--not oneself, service to my buddies, connection to something I can exclude others from. I felt able to defend myself, but seeing people in trouble attacked along with the self-indulgence, pettiness, and backbiting--it became too much for me. I realize now that the words and ideas got inside me.
But I found little of this in meetings. There was too wide a distance between the theory and practice. In practice I found that it was all about honesty about the faults of others--not oneself, service to my buddies, connection to something I can exclude others from. I felt able to defend myself, but seeing people in trouble attacked along with the self-indulgence, pettiness, and backbiting--it became too much for me. I realize now that the words and ideas got inside me.
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Originally Posted by miamifella 
Even here, I need help getting through today and someone says I should "work the steps" one moment at a time. Okay.....what exactly does that mean?
Find a Big Book based sponsor and let the sponsor guide you through the program.
And listen to some of the speakers on here:
XA-Speakers - The lights are on!
In the early days when I was craving for a drink, I'd tell myself I could go drink, but first I had to listen to one of these shares from XA Speakers (the link I stuck up).
By the time I'd listened through a share, the mental moment had past.
But seriously, be kind to yourself, find a sponsor and do the 12 Steps. They cost nothing in financial terms, and will change your life.
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I did try smartrecovery online but found it far too dogmatic for me. The other organizations that you mention were not available locally when I was looking for a program.
At this point I am not searching for a program. What I have cobbled together is working for the most part. I guess I just wish I had more close friends or knew other people in recovery.
At this point I am not searching for a program. What I have cobbled together is working for the most part. I guess I just wish I had more close friends or knew other people in recovery.
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I have had a number of sponsors. But I just had problems with belief. Many people made suggestions about making a rock or the group or whatever my higher power. But that just seemed dishonest to me.
My last sponsor waited years for me to get to the fourth step so he could work the steps with me. But I just could not get there in a way that I had any integrity. I could lie and say I believed in a higher power--but I did not think it was right to build recovery on dishonesty.
My last sponsor waited years for me to get to the fourth step so he could work the steps with me. But I just could not get there in a way that I had any integrity. I could lie and say I believed in a higher power--but I did not think it was right to build recovery on dishonesty.
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Originally Posted by miamifella
I have had a number of sponsors. But I just had problems with belief. Many people made suggestions about making a rock or the group or whatever my higher power. But that just seemed dishonest to me.
My last sponsor waited years for me to get to the fourth step so he could work the steps with me. But I just could not get there in a way that I had any integrity. I could lie and say I believed in a higher power--but I did not think it was right to build recovery on dishonesty.
My last sponsor waited years for me to get to the fourth step so he could work the steps with me. But I just could not get there in a way that I had any integrity. I could lie and say I believed in a higher power--but I did not think it was right to build recovery on dishonesty.
Step 2 = "Came to believe" - it's a process; it does not say, "I believe right now!"
Step 3 = Turn you will and your life over to the Group of Drunks (God) who want you to do Steps 4 to 9, and live under the guidance of 10, 11, and 12.
It's not that difficult.
Do the inventory; that's where the magic starts, share it with another human being; that'll open up the connection; make your amends - you cannot make a difficult amend without it having a serious 'spiritual' affect on you.
But fear makes us procrastinate. Do this thing, or don't do this thing; it's your choice. But the magic isn't in what you believe, the magic happens from the actions.
It's a program of action; not beliefs.
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I have not yet come to believe--which is why I could not say that I had.
I agree that recovery is more in action than belief. That is why I think that I have done better after leaving 12-step programs than I did during the time I was in them. As you point out, belief is embedded in the second and third step. I needed a program in which action did not depend on belief.
I am happy in my recovery program now. I am in therapy with a shrink who is himself a recovering addict and he has been a great help in finding my path.
My issue now is just getting through today. That is something that no 12-step program ever addressed and that I cannot address myself. I started calling my friends when I had cravings because I thought it would help--in spite of what I was told at meetings. And it did. But I do not have them available tonight and I am alone.
I have been completely clean in the years since I left the 12-step programs--so my feelings today are a bit of a shock to me. Its not as bad as when I was still going to meetings--I made many a desperate posting on various sites after getting home from meetings. I think it must be two years since I felt any cravings and just started assuming that I was safe. While in the rooms I was relapsing every couple months and I do not want that to happen ever again.
I agree that recovery is more in action than belief. That is why I think that I have done better after leaving 12-step programs than I did during the time I was in them. As you point out, belief is embedded in the second and third step. I needed a program in which action did not depend on belief.
I am happy in my recovery program now. I am in therapy with a shrink who is himself a recovering addict and he has been a great help in finding my path.
My issue now is just getting through today. That is something that no 12-step program ever addressed and that I cannot address myself. I started calling my friends when I had cravings because I thought it would help--in spite of what I was told at meetings. And it did. But I do not have them available tonight and I am alone.
I have been completely clean in the years since I left the 12-step programs--so my feelings today are a bit of a shock to me. Its not as bad as when I was still going to meetings--I made many a desperate posting on various sites after getting home from meetings. I think it must be two years since I felt any cravings and just started assuming that I was safe. While in the rooms I was relapsing every couple months and I do not want that to happen ever again.
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Miamifella,
You don't have to believe in any magical deity to do the 12 Steps. There's plenty of A.A.ers who're atheists.
The 12 Steps address you staying sober, by you actually DOING the 12 Steps.
We stay sober by staying spiritually fit.
If you think there's any 'magic 12 Step phrases' that'll keep you sober, you've dipped out, I'm afraid. Can you phone anyone? Anyone; it need not be an A.A. member; a close friend, and just tell them how you're feeling?
That may take some of the power out of your feelings?
And I suggest that you do actually do the 12 Steps; as I have said, an atheist can do them no problems, just as effectively as someone who has a belief. I know this from experience.
You don't have to believe in any magical deity to do the 12 Steps. There's plenty of A.A.ers who're atheists.
The 12 Steps address you staying sober, by you actually DOING the 12 Steps.
We stay sober by staying spiritually fit.
If you think there's any 'magic 12 Step phrases' that'll keep you sober, you've dipped out, I'm afraid. Can you phone anyone? Anyone; it need not be an A.A. member; a close friend, and just tell them how you're feeling?
That may take some of the power out of your feelings?
And I suggest that you do actually do the 12 Steps; as I have said, an atheist can do them no problems, just as effectively as someone who has a belief. I know this from experience.
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I don't think feeling cravings is a failure of any kind myself - none of us have to act on our cravings....
it's indicative that something is going on today though, MF and I hope you find the source of your disquiet.
D
it's indicative that something is going on today though, MF and I hope you find the source of your disquiet.
D
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If you read, I have said a few times that I am not able to reach any friends today. That is my problem. I do not know anyone in 12-step programs to call. And honestly, I do not think I need anyone to do a critique of my life. I just need some friendly support.
I am sorry, but do not at this time have any reason to do the 12-steps. I think it is wonderful that they work for you, but they are not magical. They are not a magic process that leads everyone to the same result. There are a number of people with good recovery without them. If you read my posts, you will see that 12-step programs were counterproductive for me. I relapsed more the more involved I got with the program. Since leaving, I have been untroubled by cravings until today.
Principles not programs is my mantra now. The principles of my recovery are pretty much the same as those of people in 12-step programs. I just got there by a different route.
My issue today is that I think I am feeling the same loneliness and disconnection I felt when I was involved with 12-step programs. I know that this is not good for me.
While I do have a problem with the hazing and the lashing out at newcomers, I think in the balance 12-step programs do a lot of good. In my work, I often have to advise young addicts (I teach). I always send them to 12-step programs since they do work for most people--and even if they do not, they help addicts find a vision for their future.
You do not see many people sticking around much after a few years. After a year or two or three, most go away to check in every couple months. I think that is because 12-step programs are a great training ground. But eventually, you need to find something else that matters to you enough that you want to stay clean and sober. I stuck around for over seven years, thinking that there must be something wrong with me. But I realize now I just needed a purpose for my life.
But as I am learning now, that does not mean that I do not occasionally have a bad day. And as I recall, oldtimers in 12-step programs said the same thing happened to them too.
I am sorry, but do not at this time have any reason to do the 12-steps. I think it is wonderful that they work for you, but they are not magical. They are not a magic process that leads everyone to the same result. There are a number of people with good recovery without them. If you read my posts, you will see that 12-step programs were counterproductive for me. I relapsed more the more involved I got with the program. Since leaving, I have been untroubled by cravings until today.
Principles not programs is my mantra now. The principles of my recovery are pretty much the same as those of people in 12-step programs. I just got there by a different route.
My issue today is that I think I am feeling the same loneliness and disconnection I felt when I was involved with 12-step programs. I know that this is not good for me.
While I do have a problem with the hazing and the lashing out at newcomers, I think in the balance 12-step programs do a lot of good. In my work, I often have to advise young addicts (I teach). I always send them to 12-step programs since they do work for most people--and even if they do not, they help addicts find a vision for their future.
You do not see many people sticking around much after a few years. After a year or two or three, most go away to check in every couple months. I think that is because 12-step programs are a great training ground. But eventually, you need to find something else that matters to you enough that you want to stay clean and sober. I stuck around for over seven years, thinking that there must be something wrong with me. But I realize now I just needed a purpose for my life.
But as I am learning now, that does not mean that I do not occasionally have a bad day. And as I recall, oldtimers in 12-step programs said the same thing happened to them too.
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Miamifella,
It sounds like you are doing a good job of finding what works for you.
I also was painfully aware that I needed to find a purpose for my life when I stopped drinking. I needed to reconnect with my spiritual self and believe that I had a purpose in this lifetime, that there was a reason that I was here and going through everything I went through.
It sounds like you are doing a good job of finding what works for you.
I also was painfully aware that I needed to find a purpose for my life when I stopped drinking. I needed to reconnect with my spiritual self and believe that I had a purpose in this lifetime, that there was a reason that I was here and going through everything I went through.
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