Tommyh

I used to be,but not anymore,thanks to AA
freedom,not just relief,but freedom
there is a big difference



On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.


that does not mean I can drink sucessfully again

Mark75

A psychic change did happen for me... It's funny, it's so fundamental and pervasive that I only see it when I look at where I was. I don't think about it anymore, and if I do, I am detached from the pull it had, the angst, all that.... Which is what I take as the freedom you speak of.

Yea, if I pick up again I will be back there again.

Alcohol is powerless, not me. I had help

laurie6781

Yes, ................ But (yep there is that 'but' again) ..................... the physic change only continues to work,

We have a Daily Reprieve contingent on our Fit Spiritual Condition.

Ergo I have the power not to pick up a drink today, however, should I get into 'stinkin thinkin' and allow King Alcohol to 'inch' back in, I LOSE THE CHOICE and once again would become POWERLESS.

I have seen it happen too too many times to others over these many years, others who 'seemed' to have 'good solid sobriety' working a strong program.

I cannot become complacent.

There are NO GUARANTEES.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

EricL

I feel like there is a guarantee though. As long as I continue to grow in my relationship with, and continue to have an ongoing experience with, god then I will stay in that wonderful place called "recovered". My book tells me that as the result of this relationship that my alcohol problem will be removed from me, that I'll be placed into a position of neutrality "safe and protected" from alcohol-as long as I continue to foster this relationship with god. That sounds like a guarantee to me.

laurie6781

Yes Eric. That is the "Daily Reprieve Contingent on my Fit Spiritual Condition."

However, let me give you two examples, True Stories.

One of my friends had the following happen to them in the following order:

They had to put a dear and beloved pet down that was suffering.
Then Father had a massive heart attack and died.
Then Son was T-Boned by a 'drunk driver' had massive injuries, some brain damage and will never walk again.
Then she was let go due to downsizing.

All the above happened in a period of 8 days.

She struggled. King Alcohol started talking to her, she did get through it all, never did pick up a drink or 1000 but came close. She stayed close to those she knew could give her strength, she ASKED for help, she kept some sort of 'Fit Spiritual Condition.'

Another friend:

Lost his job.
Wife file for divorce.
House went into foreclosure.
Practicing Alcoholic Adult daughter went into rehab of her own volition.
He got 2 great job offers both in his field.

All the above in 2 1/2 weeks.

King Alcohol whispered to him long and hard. He went out and it took him 4 years to get back and he only lived another 8 months.

Both of these folks had what they and everyone else thought was was really Great Sobriety. They walked the way they talked. The first person had 12+ years and 'ramped up' her meetings, phone contact and face to face contact with others in recovery, continuing to find time for her sponsees.

The second person had almost 16 years, and although having been through some previous hard times in recovery, this time stepped away from those in recovery in his life, contacted no one, didn't call, etc

Again, "Daily Reprieve contingent on my Fit Spiritual Condition."

We must be 'ever vigilant.'

There are NO GUARANTEES, the KING lies patiently in wait.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

24hrsAday

this sums it up nicely right here. you are so right laurie. it is a daily reprieve.. (contingent) on my staying out of the $hitty stinkin thinking!

SteppingItUp

What are promises?

My book is full of those. And so far, every promise I work for comes true.



Then again, I also like the word "miracles."

SteppingItUp

I do walk free, but not on my own power.

Tommyh

me too,and definitely not on my own power
glad i do not have to live like that anymore
I do need to stay on top of things to remain that way and not get to resting on my laurels
soberiety is good

GettingStronger2

[QUOTE=bballdad;3153301]me too,and definitely not on my own power
glad i do not have to live like that anymore
I do need to stay on top of things to remain that way and not get to resting on my laurels
soberiety is good[/QUOTE

Amen to that.

EricL

Clearly your second friend was not walking her talk. Its easy to put on a good show for people in the rooms or even outside the rooms. Harder to actually live by spiritual principles-I've been there.

There has never been a question in my mind, the book is pretty clear that if we do these things, if we live these principles then we recover from our disease, our problem is removed from us, and we never have to worry about alcohol.

Yes, we must be ever vigilant, but not in regards to alcohol-once I found the power offered through the work then going forward had little to do with alcohol. The vigilance comes in maintaining my spirituality, tending to the fertile spiritual condition so that god can grow what he will.

If I have to be ever vigilant against alcohol then I am pretty self reliant, as opposed to god reliant. However, if my days go as they have for a while where alcohol in my life is a non-issue and my focus is on living by spiritual means and growing in understanding of my god, then I am living in the solution and guaranteed to not drink-or suffer from the character defects and resentments that accompanied my alcoholism.

So yes, I am guaranteed to never drink again so long as I maintain this. Its the difference for me between recovered and cured.

laurie6781

No he DID walk the way he talked, until one day, he let his 'guard' down a wee bit, and King Alcohol started talking again. He was human, we are not perfect.

BULL. I have been sober and clean a very very long time. Your time will come to be TESTED, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, and unless you are a 'saint' and 'perfect', then through the 'stinking thinking' you will have to manage to at least pick up a phone and call, or you could end up right where I have seen MANY end up.

No it is not Ever Vigilant against alcohol it is EVER VIGILANT against the OLD WAYS, OLD THINKING sneaking in, because those start LONG BEFORE WE PICK UP A DRINK.

It can start by 'skipping' doing a 10th Step every evening, getting irritated at a co worker or a family member and letting it stew, or someone 'cutting you off on the street, etc They only happen once in a while, but then they happen again, and again. Complacency can and does set in on most of us from time to time in our ongoing recovery.

Oh my friend stay Vigilant. It takes years and years for the 'old ways' to completely leave and they can still pop up now and then.

And yes I AM RECOVERED from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body, however, I am still recovering in how I act and react with my fellow man.


J M H O

Love and hugs,

RobbyRobot

Yeah, it's the journey that's the thing, yes?

Sobriety is not a destination finally reached, and a claim staked; not a fought-out daily bustling struggle maintained by self-powered delusions of the grandness of Self versus the forgivness and morality of a tolerant HP or God.

I enjoy sobriety today not because I must struggle to not become complacent, as described in this thread. I'm sober today because my arrested alcoholism can't get me drunk. My struggle with alcoholism is over now, and has been for many years. There is no "struggle." It has been removed.

Complacency kills alcoholics, there is no doubt to that reality. However, complacency comes into play after alcoholism is again reactive in spirit and mentality, in psyche and emotions, in purpose and morality, and finally in ego and desire. Awakened alcoholism, again empowered, surely plays our complacency like a Pied Piper to our sorry undoing, and if not checked by a renewed sobriety, all will be lost.

A sobriety well lived, can only spring from and be nourished ongoing from the "spiritual death or spiritual arrestment" of the illness of alcoholism within the alcoholics who choose living freely and spiritually proactively throughout their daily lives. I have so chosen such a free life, of course, and why not?

Sobriety is a guaranteed proof against complacency leading us back to drunkness. We do not need to be perfect in all ways to be sober day after day ongoing. We need to be living a sober spiritual life within a few simple rules, and thats the end of our struggle with alcohol and alcoholism.

The rest of the story is simply our lives unfolding without fears of once again finding ourselves drunk. It's all behind us, the drunkeness, and not before us. That's the whole point of experiencing living sobriety. It's not a crap-shoot. It's a sure thing!!

Cheers!

EricL

I'm sorry you disagree with my experience, that must be hard for you?

I know I am not unique in that though. My experience has been that if I need to stay vigilant about alcohol then I'm still using self reliance as a way to stay sober and need to revisit the work. This program has never taught me how to avoid a drink, it clearly states its purpose as leading me to a god that will remove my problem. And by doing the work repeatedly, and having an active prayer and meditation life, that promise has come true in my life and the lives of many others. If my solution to my problems is nothing more than geting to a meeting or picking up a phone then its only a matter of time till I drink again. Drinking placed me in a position where I was beyond human aid, its foolish of me to believe that relying upon humans will resolve my problems. Do I talk to my sponsor? Of course, a solitary self appraisal is seldom sufficient. Do I go to meetings? Yes, to find people to share my experience with. Do these two things keep me sober? Absolutely not. They help guide me, show me how to access that god I need but are not-and can never be- my solution.

What happens if the phone isn't answered or the meeting is cancelled? Do I whimper and become fearful that I might drink? No of course not, I have a spiritual solution that is between god and myself.

Time means absolutely nothing, its an arbitrary marker we choose to use to somehow gauge "success". The friend you mention is a great example of this. I've seen plenty of people with extraordinary quantities of time who clearly have not lived this solution and who's solutions are middle of the road solutions-90 in 90, think the drink through, stay away from drinking places, cleaning coffee pots keeps ya sober, don't drink and go to meetings, no mention of the only solution AA offers-and as the result are living a life totally reliant on self and other humans. And then people wonder why they finally drink again. On the flip side I've also seen people have that lightening bolt spiritual experience and within a matter of weeks or months their life is changed, revolutionized, and then i get the pleasure of seeing their life progress as they go on and share that experience.

DayTrader

Eric, I think you're missing her point. She's (Laurie) suggesting that there's more to alcoholism than just the drinking issue and while it's entirely likely and possible to have, as the book describes, our drinking problem removed yet still run into old behaviors - behaviors that if left unchecked can and will lead to that next first drink.

ie - NObody is 100% resentment free....nobody. Would not each "new" resentment be considered like a new "test?" I sure see it that way.... another chance for me to choose recovery or choose relapse...and relapse doesn't necessarily JUST involve picking up a drink again. Any one of us can engage in thoughts and behaviors that are 100% in line with our old insanity without ever getting drunk or getting high.

Drinking was just part of the deal......and while my never-ending and unstoppable compulsion to drink has been removed just as it has for many/most of us, I'm don't believe for a minute that anyone's completely free of defects, fear, selfishness, self-centered thinking, never has issues with any of the seven deadly sins, can adhere to the 4 absolutes - absolutely.......so on and so forth. It's safe to say we all have experience not being perfect and while we aim for / shoot for perfection, we'll not attain it.

Given the lack of wiggle room with my alcoholism, I can't afford to be less than perfect.......unless I'm able to enlist and apply additional power that comes from God. So am I "tempted?" sure am.....and so is everybody. Maybe not to go get loaded but, as I'm using the term, we're all tempted, or seduced if you like that term better, to rest on laurels, to break rules, to leave the spiritual path from time to time..... Hell, if we weren't there would be NO NEED FOR GOD in the first place. If I was able to be fully self sufficient, never screw up and never need His power, then I, obviously, wouldn't NEED God. Reality is we all need God because we're all tempted at one time or another and we all fall short of our ideal from time to time.

I'm recovered.......no question about it.....but that doesn't mean I'm perfect....and I'm no longer victim of the delusion that I need to be perfect to be recovered.

EricL

I agree that, again, if I don't maintain my spiritual condition, old behaviors may return. I don't buy the whole "I'm still sick" excuse though. Either god is everything or he isn't, either I'm doing the work and my character defects have been removed or they haven't. If I slip into believing I can manage certain aspects of my life-as I clearly have-then yes trouble arises. But these are things I am powerless to control, just like alcohol, and neither my sponsor, an AA group, or any other human can reel these in. Selfishness, resentments, defects of character are things that "I" do not try to control, they come under control as a by product of seeking god and carrying his message, not through anything I do to control them.

My only argument with her post is this idea that I have to be ever vigilant. Like its some life long battle against the first drink. That's simply not true. This is a lasting solution, a solution where I surrender, there is no more fighting, alcohol has already won. The only thing I need to be vigilant about is my spiritual disciplines, and growing my relationship with god.

EricL

I would argue that we all, as long as we are seeking god, do attain perfection at times-however fleeting they may be. I know for certain I have had days where I could feel the presence of god the entire day. Where I didn't have expectations, and was of service where I was presented the opportunity. Obviously, I still have the ability to "fall asleep at the wheel" though and run astray from this ideal. But luckily the book gives me a way to deal with that :-)

RobbyRobot

Yeah, Amen!

Brothers and sisters all, amen.

RobbyRobot

Not experienced as a "new test" for me since proactively living a spiritual sober life. My present experience with resentments is akin to having another go at the same original core issues that although I could allow the whole sorry mess of resentments to be dismissed by justifying my success at sobriety and just get above it all, I choose to use again the simple tools that have always served me so well in sorbriety today same as day one way back at the beginning.

Honesty. Humility. Surrender. Forgiveness. Service. Thankfulness. Joy. Sharing. Caring. Integrity. Peace of mind. Study. Prayer. Spiritual Awareness and Descipline. Childishness. Love.

Those tools, and more, keep me working on the original problem: Alcoholism. It was a great joy when I finally realized i did not have to drink or be drunk to work on a solution to my alcoholism. It all seems so simple now. I don't and won't ever forget from whence i have come, but in all honesty, It clearly nowadays happily baffles me why I ever decided it was worth getting deluded and drunk over....

That's a good thing, hahahaha.

So yeah, I don't see it as a new "test." And so, after time works its own magic, things continue to get not only better, but easier as well, cause it is just like riding a bike now, or falling off a log...



My alcoholism is perfectly arrested. It is dead to me. The aftermath of my alcoholism is of course still in play with my body, my emotions, my past. My psyche though is forever changed. The alcoholic mind I can still hear, but it is sooo verrry clearly alcoholic, that no mistake could possibly be made in my identifying whatever from my alcoholic mind. It is so wounded, so defeated, it is shutup and boxed in. Spiritually it is dead. No power. Gone. What remains are just shades and whispers. If perfection exists, and I do believe it so, than a spiritual sobriety is surely a perfect remedy to fatal alcoholism.

Cheers!

sugarbear1

In a place of neutrality.