Will it EVER get better?
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hungary
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Will it EVER get better?
I'm losing hope...I realized that anxiety has been with me from my early childhood, practically all my life. Can something that is so strongly attached to me ever go away completely? I'm tired of fighting. 
Some things help for a while but only for a while. And I don't have the strength to fight this fight anymore...
What do you think, is complete recovery even possible?
Some things help for a while but only for a while. And I don't have the strength to fight this fight anymore...
What do you think, is complete recovery even possible?
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
I don't know that complete recovery is possible but I do believe that the anxiety can get to a manageable place where it doesn't rule our lives.
That said, I am still seeking to find that place. It is quite elusive and very frustrating and discouraging. There are days when I too am ready to just give up. But I can not lose hope that things can get better. Life has to be more than this constant struggle. I see people who have overcome this and learned to manage it so I know it is possible. I have felt that control at times in my own life, unfortunately those times were short lived.
I guess what I am trying to say is don't lose hope. Anything is possible and given time, the right mental health interventions I believe you can get to a place of manageability.
That said, I am still seeking to find that place. It is quite elusive and very frustrating and discouraging. There are days when I too am ready to just give up. But I can not lose hope that things can get better. Life has to be more than this constant struggle. I see people who have overcome this and learned to manage it so I know it is possible. I have felt that control at times in my own life, unfortunately those times were short lived.
I guess what I am trying to say is don't lose hope. Anything is possible and given time, the right mental health interventions I believe you can get to a place of manageability.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by nandm 
It is quite elusive and very frustrating and discouraging.
Now that i don't mask those awful feelings, i still have the same issues. I'm almost shut down from this. It's very, very physical. It's not a mental problem, it's a physical problem.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
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It's very, very physical. It's not a mental problem, it's a physical problem.
Can I ask why if you feel this is a physical problem that you posted your question in the mental health forum?
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 178
I agree w/ nandm. While everyone's situation is specific to themselves, I think it is clear that there is definitely an inter-relationship between the physical/mental aspect of anxiety.
For me, my mental issue was being constantly worried, particualary in school and at work. I managed to finish college, but not before I tried to arrange classes w/ a friend or two on courses I would struggle with, like speech and presentation ridden capstone courses. Oddly, I aced my speeches and got an A. Isn't that odd? I grew up being shy, quiet, and was constantly reluctant to speak up. To put it into perspective, I had an easier time doing group speeches as opposed to individual speeches. Oddly, I aced my speech course. At that time I had no insurance, and did not seek medical/doctor help as I didn't think too much of it. But I recall starting to drink heavy on weekends.
However, in the work environment, everything changed. In the real world, pressure and stress levels grow by a lot. I would sweat during quick meetings, feel extremely anxious during meetings and presentation. Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say. Feeling these thoughts led to uncontrollable physical reactions, like sweating. It was embarassing and I seeked help. I naturally sweated more than others, but when you mix that w/ anxiety and embarassment phobia, you get a bad combination.
I'm at the point now of trying to stay clean off alcohol and use medication if I need to. So far it has helped. Ultimately I don't want to rely on medication, but they do help.
Good luck. Quitting stimulants like coffee, and what not takes time.
They say to give it a good 6months- 1 year and then go from there.
For me, my mental issue was being constantly worried, particualary in school and at work. I managed to finish college, but not before I tried to arrange classes w/ a friend or two on courses I would struggle with, like speech and presentation ridden capstone courses. Oddly, I aced my speeches and got an A. Isn't that odd? I grew up being shy, quiet, and was constantly reluctant to speak up. To put it into perspective, I had an easier time doing group speeches as opposed to individual speeches. Oddly, I aced my speech course. At that time I had no insurance, and did not seek medical/doctor help as I didn't think too much of it. But I recall starting to drink heavy on weekends.
However, in the work environment, everything changed. In the real world, pressure and stress levels grow by a lot. I would sweat during quick meetings, feel extremely anxious during meetings and presentation. Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say. Feeling these thoughts led to uncontrollable physical reactions, like sweating. It was embarassing and I seeked help. I naturally sweated more than others, but when you mix that w/ anxiety and embarassment phobia, you get a bad combination.
I'm at the point now of trying to stay clean off alcohol and use medication if I need to. So far it has helped. Ultimately I don't want to rely on medication, but they do help.
Good luck. Quitting stimulants like coffee, and what not takes time.
They say to give it a good 6months- 1 year and then go from there.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 525
Thanks for your responses.
I say it's physical, because my stomach feels like worms are gnawing inside it, and the rest of my body is shooting/tingling in an awful way. So, what is the cause, and what is the effect? Is the mental anxiety caused by the physical gnawing stomach?
Or is the physical gnawing stomach caused by the mental anxiety?
If i stop eating for a few days, it will cause stress on my body. That body stress will then send signals to my brain. My brain will slowly become focused on the body. In this example, the overwhelming, obsessive mental thoughts are caused by the physical body.
Ultimately, i want to find the solution, i want to rid myself of anxiety. I'm not sure what the cause is, and what the effect is, but my stomach & body are certainly not a temple of peace and calm. I feel sick.
nandm, thanks for sharing that you've stopped alcohol for 10 years and you still suffer from anxiety. I've been off alcohol for about 16 months, and this anxiety is peaking right now. This anxiety is scary, scary stuff. My mom had it bad, and she self-medicated it, and it was an affliction her whole life. One part of me says "mom used wine & whiskey for most of her life, and it allowed her to participate in life (sort of)". But i'm not listening to that logic. I know of multiple examples of people who were hit very hard with anxiety after years of drinking, when the alcohol stopped working, and then it devastated them.
Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say.
I have this problem too froglet. A year ago, i was very confident, and i was getting a lot of positive feedback from coworkers. But now, i feel frightened and slow to talk. Ironically, i used to make comments that i felt were self-evident, but i felt the need to join the blustering scrum of the meeting. Now, i pause too long before speaking, so my verbal timing is way off. I'm too self-conscious, tired, and lack stamina and energy.
I say it's physical, because my stomach feels like worms are gnawing inside it, and the rest of my body is shooting/tingling in an awful way. So, what is the cause, and what is the effect? Is the mental anxiety caused by the physical gnawing stomach?
Or is the physical gnawing stomach caused by the mental anxiety?
If i stop eating for a few days, it will cause stress on my body. That body stress will then send signals to my brain. My brain will slowly become focused on the body. In this example, the overwhelming, obsessive mental thoughts are caused by the physical body.
Ultimately, i want to find the solution, i want to rid myself of anxiety. I'm not sure what the cause is, and what the effect is, but my stomach & body are certainly not a temple of peace and calm. I feel sick.
nandm, thanks for sharing that you've stopped alcohol for 10 years and you still suffer from anxiety. I've been off alcohol for about 16 months, and this anxiety is peaking right now. This anxiety is scary, scary stuff. My mom had it bad, and she self-medicated it, and it was an affliction her whole life. One part of me says "mom used wine & whiskey for most of her life, and it allowed her to participate in life (sort of)". But i'm not listening to that logic. I know of multiple examples of people who were hit very hard with anxiety after years of drinking, when the alcohol stopped working, and then it devastated them.
Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say.
I have this problem too froglet. A year ago, i was very confident, and i was getting a lot of positive feedback from coworkers. But now, i feel frightened and slow to talk. Ironically, i used to make comments that i felt were self-evident, but i felt the need to join the blustering scrum of the meeting. Now, i pause too long before speaking, so my verbal timing is way off. I'm too self-conscious, tired, and lack stamina and energy.
He who seeks, will find
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Galway Ireland
Posts: 35
Yes, I truly believe this to be physical problem in its origin, I believe at least in my case that I have some form of birth defect or deficiency in my nervous system, I don't think that my nervous system is capable of handling everyday messages from my brain in the same way a 'normal' persons nerves would react. I suppose what Im saying is my nerves are always hypersensitive. I like what I heard in AA, that some alcoholics seem to have left the factory without getting the final protective coating on their nerves, I can relate here.
I believe that the mind makes the situation worse, for it knows in advance how the body will react to certain stimuli and it will create a thought process prior to an event and this of course will make the situation worse. As they say "you can only fear something that has already happened"
Im nearly 3 years sober, nearly 2 smoke free and I suffer from tingling and pins and needles which is called paraesthesia. I got neuropathy from drinking, lucky me!! The tingling is unbearable at times and often I do think of having a drink to end it or a smoke as it got way worse after I quite smoking. I won't take drugs for it, I was told to up my Vitamin B and calicum levels and to dramatically reduce my sugar intake, I must say that this is indeed doing some good, but it comes and goes, can stay for a few weeks and then be gone for a few weeks, but again, in my opinion, the nervous is compromised in the first place, like electrical wires with cracked insulation, current is not travelling smoothly to where it is mean't to go, instead it is arching, the mind is aware something is wrong so it panics, sending more signals and a vicious circle is created.
I had scans done on my hands and feet a few years back and they could detect damage from the images, so that is indeed physiological damage.
May be worth a mention that the brain is also a fundamental part of the nervous system, so I would be thinking that anything a miss in the rest of it should also be applied to the brain
I believe that the mind makes the situation worse, for it knows in advance how the body will react to certain stimuli and it will create a thought process prior to an event and this of course will make the situation worse. As they say "you can only fear something that has already happened"
Im nearly 3 years sober, nearly 2 smoke free and I suffer from tingling and pins and needles which is called paraesthesia. I got neuropathy from drinking, lucky me!! The tingling is unbearable at times and often I do think of having a drink to end it or a smoke as it got way worse after I quite smoking. I won't take drugs for it, I was told to up my Vitamin B and calicum levels and to dramatically reduce my sugar intake, I must say that this is indeed doing some good, but it comes and goes, can stay for a few weeks and then be gone for a few weeks, but again, in my opinion, the nervous is compromised in the first place, like electrical wires with cracked insulation, current is not travelling smoothly to where it is mean't to go, instead it is arching, the mind is aware something is wrong so it panics, sending more signals and a vicious circle is created.
I had scans done on my hands and feet a few years back and they could detect damage from the images, so that is indeed physiological damage.
May be worth a mention that the brain is also a fundamental part of the nervous system, so I would be thinking that anything a miss in the rest of it should also be applied to the brain
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by AcceptingChange
Thanks for your responses.
I say it's physical, because my stomach feels like worms are gnawing inside it, and the rest of my body is shooting/tingling in an awful way. So, what is the cause, and what is the effect? Is the mental anxiety caused by the physical gnawing stomach?
Or is the physical gnawing stomach caused by the mental anxiety?
If i stop eating for a few days, it will cause stress on my body. That body stress will then send signals to my brain. My brain will slowly become focused on the body. In this example, the overwhelming, obsessive mental thoughts are caused by the physical body.
Ultimately, i want to find the solution, i want to rid myself of anxiety. I'm not sure what the cause is, and what the effect is, but my stomach & body are certainly not a temple of peace and calm. I feel sick.
nandm, thanks for sharing that you've stopped alcohol for 10 years and you still suffer from anxiety. I've been off alcohol for about 16 months, and this anxiety is peaking right now. This anxiety is scary, scary stuff. My mom had it bad, and she self-medicated it, and it was an affliction her whole life. One part of me says "mom used wine & whiskey for most of her life, and it allowed her to participate in life (sort of)". But i'm not listening to that logic. I know of multiple examples of people who were hit very hard with anxiety after years of drinking, when the alcohol stopped working, and then it devastated them.
Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say.
I have this problem too froglet. A year ago, i was very confident, and i was getting a lot of positive feedback from coworkers. But now, i feel frightened and slow to talk. Ironically, i used to make comments that i felt were self-evident, but i felt the need to join the blustering scrum of the meeting. Now, i pause too long before speaking, so my verbal timing is way off. I'm too self-conscious, tired, and lack stamina and energy.
I say it's physical, because my stomach feels like worms are gnawing inside it, and the rest of my body is shooting/tingling in an awful way. So, what is the cause, and what is the effect? Is the mental anxiety caused by the physical gnawing stomach?
Or is the physical gnawing stomach caused by the mental anxiety?
If i stop eating for a few days, it will cause stress on my body. That body stress will then send signals to my brain. My brain will slowly become focused on the body. In this example, the overwhelming, obsessive mental thoughts are caused by the physical body.
Ultimately, i want to find the solution, i want to rid myself of anxiety. I'm not sure what the cause is, and what the effect is, but my stomach & body are certainly not a temple of peace and calm. I feel sick.
nandm, thanks for sharing that you've stopped alcohol for 10 years and you still suffer from anxiety. I've been off alcohol for about 16 months, and this anxiety is peaking right now. This anxiety is scary, scary stuff. My mom had it bad, and she self-medicated it, and it was an affliction her whole life. One part of me says "mom used wine & whiskey for most of her life, and it allowed her to participate in life (sort of)". But i'm not listening to that logic. I know of multiple examples of people who were hit very hard with anxiety after years of drinking, when the alcohol stopped working, and then it devastated them.
Part of it was the subconsious awareness that I am working w/ people w/ more experience and therfore felt out of place and stupid. I feared embarassment, I feared not knowing what to say.
I have this problem too froglet. A year ago, i was very confident, and i was getting a lot of positive feedback from coworkers. But now, i feel frightened and slow to talk. Ironically, i used to make comments that i felt were self-evident, but i felt the need to join the blustering scrum of the meeting. Now, i pause too long before speaking, so my verbal timing is way off. I'm too self-conscious, tired, and lack stamina and energy.
After doing the blood work, everything was fine and it gave me relief. I now am on a quarterly blood testing schedule, so long as I have insurance.
I've read about stomache anxiety reactions before. I've actually came across this w/ some people during exam week. It's definitely a case that can happen.
When our bodies feel threatened to that degree, we give off a reaction. For me, as you know, the physical aspect is my sweating. Perhaps for you, it is the stomache discomfort.
Aside from that, eatting well is crucial. NO fast food, no soda, low sugar and sweets. Try to eat well, eat frequently and NEVER EVER STARVE.
Try that, and pay attention to foods that might trigger upset stomache. For myself I"m careful not to put milk in my coffee, or eat ice cream late at night. Over time being excessively cautious has made me so. (EX: I would avoid sushi the night prior to a meeting on the next day, but I would eat sushi on a Friday).
Good luck. Please update us. =)
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by AcceptingChange
nandm, thanks for sharing that you've stopped alcohol for 10 years and you still suffer from anxiety. I've been off alcohol for about 16 months, and this anxiety is peaking right now. This anxiety is scary, scary stuff. My mom had it bad, and she self-medicated it, and it was an affliction her whole life. One part of me says "mom used wine & whiskey for most of her life, and it allowed her to participate in life (sort of)". But i'm not listening to that logic. I know of multiple examples of people who were hit very hard with anxiety after years of drinking, when the alcohol stopped working, and then it devastated them..
polyaddicted cocanut
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dixie
Posts: 781
Well, I firmly believe anxiety is a behavioral condition that through repetition becomes a part of the subconscious habit. It can have triggers... but how it all began isn't important. It's a cycle that once you get "stuck" in it becomes hard to break... like, forgetting how to do something you've already learned, like driving... anxiety is a natural reaction, the problem for those of us with an anxiety condition is that this anxiety response is stuck "on"... causing symptoms, causing sensations, causing thoughts, causing more anxiety, causing more sensations... (physical and mental)
I went from having slight generalized anxiety and social anxiety as a kid, to developing full blown 24/7 panic... I literally thought I had reached a point of no return. Fortunately, I have seen much improvement in my life, and I'm not 100% better, but if I had to rate it, I'd say I am about 90% better. So yeah, it does get better- but it certainly takes a lot of work, and it isn't easy. It starts with recognizing the symptoms/sensations of anxiety, and then constantly putting your attention on other things. It takes time, but I am so grateful to have made it this far, like I said I never thought I'd get better.
Most people that suffer from this behavioral condition have nothing wrong with them, but they do share some of the same traits- creative intellect, sensitivity, deep and analytical thinking... these traits are a recipe for anxiety. That doesn't mean that if you have all of these that you have to have anxiety, or that you will always have anxiety issues. There is hope...
I went from having slight generalized anxiety and social anxiety as a kid, to developing full blown 24/7 panic... I literally thought I had reached a point of no return. Fortunately, I have seen much improvement in my life, and I'm not 100% better, but if I had to rate it, I'd say I am about 90% better. So yeah, it does get better- but it certainly takes a lot of work, and it isn't easy. It starts with recognizing the symptoms/sensations of anxiety, and then constantly putting your attention on other things. It takes time, but I am so grateful to have made it this far, like I said I never thought I'd get better.
Most people that suffer from this behavioral condition have nothing wrong with them, but they do share some of the same traits- creative intellect, sensitivity, deep and analytical thinking... these traits are a recipe for anxiety. That doesn't mean that if you have all of these that you have to have anxiety, or that you will always have anxiety issues. There is hope...
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 525
i was writing in my journal today about how i don't feel any different than when i was 14. At that age, i noticed how anxious i was to be doing something different than whatever it was i was doing. If i was alone, i wanted to find people. If i was with people, they'd frustrate me and i'd want to be alone. The only time this problem stopped was when i drank. Then, suddenly, i was completely comfortable with whatever i was doing. Well, i ran with that solution for about 20 years. I wouldn't recommend it, since i feel there are more effective medications. But i didn't know nuttin bout no fancy brain drugs back then.
Now that i don't have that solution in my life anymore, i'm back to be 14, anxious, nervous and wanting to be doing whatever i'm not doing. I spent decades trying to be someone. And i accomplished the primary goals (except the goal to be independently wealthy :-) ). Before these accomplishments, i thought the anxiety was because i felt inadequate compared to others. But now i see it wasn't because of my thoughts. I just have anxiety. And then i try to formulate a theory of "What causes this anxiety? It must be my thoughts". But i don't feel it's my thoughts anymore. I feel it's my body.
I heard something last week about introverted vs extroverted people. The old theory was "Introverts don't like people, and extroverts do." The new theory is "Introverts are seeking calm by wanting to be alone, because they take in so many sensations when they are with other people. Extroverts don't take in so much, so they like the stimulation of being with others. Introverts are basically over-stimulated when with people, so they seek some quiet to calm down the thoughts."
That makes a lot of sense.
Now that i don't have that solution in my life anymore, i'm back to be 14, anxious, nervous and wanting to be doing whatever i'm not doing. I spent decades trying to be someone. And i accomplished the primary goals (except the goal to be independently wealthy :-) ). Before these accomplishments, i thought the anxiety was because i felt inadequate compared to others. But now i see it wasn't because of my thoughts. I just have anxiety. And then i try to formulate a theory of "What causes this anxiety? It must be my thoughts". But i don't feel it's my thoughts anymore. I feel it's my body.
I heard something last week about introverted vs extroverted people. The old theory was "Introverts don't like people, and extroverts do." The new theory is "Introverts are seeking calm by wanting to be alone, because they take in so many sensations when they are with other people. Extroverts don't take in so much, so they like the stimulation of being with others. Introverts are basically over-stimulated when with people, so they seek some quiet to calm down the thoughts."
That makes a lot of sense.
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For whatever the causes of anxiety, server GAD for me, it has been the best to manage it. Some days are better than others and the bad days can be debilitating.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hungary
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by AcceptingChange
i don't feel any different than when i was 14
Good to hear that many of you think that it can get better. Maybe one day it will
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by AcceptingChange
i was writing in my journal today about how i don't feel any different than when i was 14. At that age, i noticed how anxious i was to be doing something different than whatever it was i was doing. If i was alone, i wanted to find people. If i was with people, they'd frustrate me and i'd want to be alone. The only time this problem stopped was when i drank. Then, suddenly, i was completely comfortable with whatever i was doing. Well, i ran with that solution for about 20 years. I wouldn't recommend it, since i feel there are more effective medications. But i didn't know nuttin bout no fancy brain drugs back then.
Now that i don't have that solution in my life anymore, i'm back to be 14, anxious, nervous and wanting to be doing whatever i'm not doing. I spent decades trying to be someone. And i accomplished the primary goals (except the goal to be independently wealthy :-) ). Before these accomplishments, i thought the anxiety was because i felt inadequate compared to others. But now i see it wasn't because of my thoughts. I just have anxiety. And then i try to formulate a theory of "What causes this anxiety? It must be my thoughts". But i don't feel it's my thoughts anymore. I feel it's my body.
I heard something last week about introverted vs extroverted people. The old theory was "Introverts don't like people, and extroverts do." The new theory is "Introverts are seeking calm by wanting to be alone, because they take in so many sensations when they are with other people. Extroverts don't take in so much, so they like the stimulation of being with others. Introverts are basically over-stimulated when with people, so they seek some quiet to calm down the thoughts." That makes a lot of sense.
Now that i don't have that solution in my life anymore, i'm back to be 14, anxious, nervous and wanting to be doing whatever i'm not doing. I spent decades trying to be someone. And i accomplished the primary goals (except the goal to be independently wealthy :-) ). Before these accomplishments, i thought the anxiety was because i felt inadequate compared to others. But now i see it wasn't because of my thoughts. I just have anxiety. And then i try to formulate a theory of "What causes this anxiety? It must be my thoughts". But i don't feel it's my thoughts anymore. I feel it's my body.
I heard something last week about introverted vs extroverted people. The old theory was "Introverts don't like people, and extroverts do." The new theory is "Introverts are seeking calm by wanting to be alone, because they take in so many sensations when they are with other people. Extroverts don't take in so much, so they like the stimulation of being with others. Introverts are basically over-stimulated when with people, so they seek some quiet to calm down the thoughts." That makes a lot of sense.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by Froglet
Do you recall where you got this? Pretty true if you ask me. I notice myself being more observant as I'm quiet. I suppose they are parallel personalities.
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 335
I have had anxiety since childhood also. You will never be completely free of anxiety and some anxiety in life is normal. Stop fighting anxiety as this will make it worse I think its called the fight or flight response. Anxiety goes hand in hand with depression in regards to treatment I was told so I got on anti-depressants and I'm really good now although I have my bad days. That's the best advice I can give hope it helps.
heartofamama
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 70
so true what you all say, and thank you for being here-- cause i finally know i'm not the only one.
it's impossible to explain to family members--i never even tried. hell, they're a lot of the reasons i'm so fearful in the first place.
really maims to speak terrible words over children, cause they grow up & fulfill that word without knowing how it happened. (bad marriages, addictions, can't hold a job, ect.)
i understand now how i got this way, & it helps me find my way back.
truly, not being angry at whatever person hurt u is very healing.
even though they caused u 2 think you're a loser or worthless, you can still decide to change your own mind about it see yourself the way God sees you--as precious.
it takes time to reform your thinking, but the thoughts of God are peaceful, never harmful...
so begin there, & take His Word for it-- just agree with God that you're precious & that person who ragged on you was simply wrong & nasty. Amen
it's impossible to explain to family members--i never even tried. hell, they're a lot of the reasons i'm so fearful in the first place.
really maims to speak terrible words over children, cause they grow up & fulfill that word without knowing how it happened. (bad marriages, addictions, can't hold a job, ect.)
i understand now how i got this way, & it helps me find my way back.
truly, not being angry at whatever person hurt u is very healing.
even though they caused u 2 think you're a loser or worthless, you can still decide to change your own mind about it see yourself the way God sees you--as precious.
it takes time to reform your thinking, but the thoughts of God are peaceful, never harmful...
so begin there, & take His Word for it-- just agree with God that you're precious & that person who ragged on you was simply wrong & nasty. Amen
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