lillamy

So one of my kids doesn't want anything to do with AXH. He doesn't care. He just wants to "exercise his right" under the divorce agreement. He doesn't even like her. He uses her as his babysitter.

I just got the kids back from 24 hours with their father (using the term loosely) and the oldest one (the one who HAS TO go there against her will) is being a complete a**. Yes, I know you can't say that about your own children but the way she is after spending time with him? I'd like to put her out on the curb with a sign saying "Free to a Good Home"...

I know it's her hurt. I know she's pushing and pushing me to see if I will abandon her emotionally like her father did (emotional abandonment followed by forcing her to spend time at his house -- it's a brilliant form of torture that the courts unfortunately allow. Unless I can prove he beats her, they don't give a flying f*** about what she wants until she turns 14). I know it's her hurt speaking and nothing else. But I'm so effing exhausted after just a few hours with her that I wish I could run away to Peru or something.

Of course I don't. Of course I'm patient and loving and set up firm boundaries and cry in the shower. But [insert long string of expletives here] this is hard. This is so, so, so, so hard.

DesertEyes

Hey there lilamy,

Feel free to "dump and run" anytime. That's what we are here for.

I'm glad to see that you are crying in the shower, that's what I did too. There were days I was the cleanest person in town from all the "showers"

and yes it is hugely hard. That's why there's al-anon and CODA and parents anonymous and this place on the web and therapist and shelves full of books at the bookstore. It is _very_ hard.

I'm just guessing here, but it seems to me like "codies" are the strongest people in the world. Maybe that is why the HP gives us children to look after, because He knows we're up to the task.

Mike

LaPinturaBella

How old is she now, lilamy? I can understand why she'd be so deeply hurt. And it's good you recognize the why of it because when they are being little a**es I can imagine you'd want to put them on the curb. Is AXH her bio dad? I don't know what can be done, except to love her and let her know that you totally understand how crappy this is for her and that YOU won't ever abandon her.

Hugs to you both. And Mike...I agree with you. I also think codie's are the strongest people on the planet!

outonalimb

Sending a big hug to you lillamy...Yes it IS hard. yes it absolutely sucks sometimes.
My son (age 12) absolutely REFUSES to see or talk to his dad.
Fortunately, I have sole physical custody and exah hasn't pushed the visitation issue.
My heart goes out to you.
My counselor told me to be prepared for the fact that my son will direct his anger at me because I'm a safe place for him to do so.
Some days I can take it in stride and others...well..I just want to scream.
Understanding hugs...
Mary

Tuffgirl

lillamy - although I live here I was not divorced here, so my custody arrangements are through another state. However, do we have a court appointed special advocate program here? And if so, could that help in regards to your daughter being allowed to determine her visitation?

Seems to me that if visitation is detrimental to a child, they should be allowed to determine whether or not to go themselves. When did we start discounting children as people?

Hope your day gets better. I hear you on the crying behind the scenes...I can't show a moment of weakness to my teenagers these days!

lillamy

I don't think so, Tuffgirl. Basically, from what I've understood, courts here look at a list of about 10 things, the wishes of the child being one of them. But the wishes of the child starts out at the bottom of the list and moves up -- so by the time they're 14, they almost always get what they want. That's part of what makes her so angry -- that she's in the situation she's in (the child of an A, the child of a divorce) and that nobody asks her what she wants. Or that nobody cares what she wants.

And I know it's the classical thing -- she takes it all out on me because she feels safe with me.

My option is to pay for a custody investigation (between us, AXH and I make too much money for the state to pay for it) - it's about $10K to have one done. And I can't pull that out of a hat, unfortunately.

We had a really, really good rest of the day. But sweet corn, that was a doozy. She's pushing every button all the way from the ground floor to the top.

Oh, and I forgot to add -- she's 12.

barb dwyer

LaPinturaBella

Oy vay! Having a Dad that has emotionally abandoned you as a kid is damaging enough. Having one that doesn't really even like you and uses you as his babysitter for your siblings so HE doesn't have to be "inconvenienced" is even more damaging. Plus the fact that she is on the brink of puberty, if not already into it, is even worse because she also has all of those hormones raging.

I have a bad gut feeling about this...it will color how she relates to boys/men for years to come. Can you talk to your lawyer to see if the custody/visitation can be revised for her. It sounds like the best interests of THIS child are not really in HER best interests at all.

Hugs again to you both. This is a tough one. But she's got a really good Mom who gets what's going on, and that is a huge help!

kittykitty

I'm sorry you and her are going through this.
Is there any alateen in your area? Maybe some alanon meetings would help her to accept the things she cannot change, and give her the courage to change the things she can.

There doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about the situation, so she is getting angry about it, and then treating you like crap makes her feel better. Are the other kids around when she does this? Do they know it's unacceptable? Does she?

Now is a great opportunity for her to learn that things don't always go her way, and sometimes in life we have to do things we don't want to do, but that doesn't mean she has to let it ruin her. There are healthy ways of coping with these types of situations, ways she will use for the rest of her life, not just with her father. The earlier they learn the better, imo.

*This post was not meant to judge, demean, or belittle in any way. I am offering my ESH to shed possible new light on a difficult situation. Take what you like and leave the rest.

-my new disclaimer

laurie6781

I can't remember, is there Alateen by you? Would she agree to trying just 1 meeting to see if she likes it or not.

You can promote it by telling her that she will find 'peers' others going through what she is going through and that maybe they can help her a bit. She also may find some new and pretty great friends.

I think you did say that she was flat out refusing to see a therapist also.

I know she needs to feel that you 'love' her and that she is 'safe' with you, but she also needs to know that what MOM SAYS is the rule of the land. So, I understand you are walking a very 'fine' line here on a gal that is just about a teenager.

Also, it won't help for the summer, but if she could get involved in extra school activities, ie sports, debating club, chess club, choir, etc she would have some 'built in' excuses (a game, a debate, etc) to avoid visitation with her dad to some degree, and I do not believe the 'courts' would say a word as the 'child' is doing academic things and does have 'commitments' now, if you get my drift. This is something you could discuss with her, as to what extra curricular activities she would like to become involved in.

In the meantime, you are definitely correct, she is 'acting out' with you after a visit because she knows it is 'safe' to do so, and in the process sounds like she is getting past her initial feelings rather quickly.

Good thoughts and prayers winging Northward to you and your family.

Oh and before I forget, you are doing a GREAT JOB!!!!!!

Love and hugs,

Thumper

I'm so sorry. What a difficult situation. It is so hard to absorb all those emotions when they are pushing our buttons so.

I bought and read this book to my older boys.

Divorce Is Not the End of the World: Zoe's and Evan's Coping Guide for Kids by
Zoe Stern

It would not address her specific issue with her dad (and doesn't talk about alcoholism at all) but it is full of strategies for kids to use when they feel stuck with other people's decisions. It frames things in a way that gives them some personal power over their own happiness. It gives specific strategies about how to start conversations with parents. I read it out loud to them and was hoping it would trigger some discussion but they are not talkers. I think my oldest (11 at the time) really got a lot out of it.

IMO the philosphy of the book mirrors a lot of what we talk about here on SR (just kid style) so I liked it.

ETA: I read Laurie's post. Getting involved in lots of things improved things greatly with my middle aged son. He was 9yo then. Also - I struggle greatly with the line between allowing them to off load their feelings and not allowing them to treat me with total disrespect. I did not do a good job of that at all with one of mine and the disrespect is atrocious and very difficult for me to handle now.

outonalimb

Laurie mentioned alateen...

My son is 12. He refuses to have anything to do with his dad right now.
He's dealing with alot of anger right now over his dad's continued drinking and the effect it has had on our family.
I took him to his first alateen meeting about a month ago.
He loved it.
He says his meeting is the highlight of his week.

I can't say enough about the alateen program. It's really helped my son alot in just the short time he's been going there. In August he's going to a 3-day alateen conference at a university in our state and he's so excited about it.

And an added bonus...I can attend an alanon meeting while he's at his.

Why not give it a shot??

Hugs
Mary

Tuffgirl

Lillamy - curious (for a variety of reasons, one of which is that my crazy sister wants to divorce her husband and she has 3 boys under 11) what would happen if she refused to go?

My girls have been making that decision since they were your daughter's age and their Dad has been gracious enough to let them choose. But my philosophy has been how can I force them to go to their Dad's? Duct tape only goes so far, ya know. At one point do I say I can't physically remove this kid from my home and force her to his home? Would you end up in trouble if her Dad complained if she refused to go and you didn't "make her"?

And shoot on the custody investigation. That sucks. I know up here it is its own separate case versus divorce, but I don't understand why kids don't have any rights at age 12. In other countries, kids at age 12 are almost full grown adults. Bugger on our state.

lillamy

Well, I think we're about to find out. She had an utter and complete meltdown over it over the weekend, but she says she is too afraid of her father to tell him she doesn't want to be there.

She will get her way, one way or the other. She's a little bit like the proverbial 500 pound gorilla, you know -- the "where does a 500-pound gorilla sleep? whereverthehe** it wants to" -- I just wish it could be done amicably and without her running away from his house. Because that's what she's threatened to do.

m1k3

Out of curiosity. Would you and your daughter be ok with you speaking to AH about this? My daughters' teen age years are long behind me and all I remember is a screaming drama fest. 2 teenage daughters at the same time, my wife starting menopause and her beginning to drop into alcoholism and xanax abuse, all over the same time frame.

You have my sympathy. I can give you hope also. While my AW is still my AW my daughters have grown up to have wonderful families of their own and since my separation from my AW we have grown even closer.

((((hugs))))

lillamy

She is fine with me talking to him about it. The problem is his paranoia. In his universe, everyone is out to get him -- me especially -- and he cannot see beyond that.

When I found out that he had started drinking again, I gave him an honest offer: I said "Look -- I have learned over the past year that the first year of sobriety is hard. As much as you are out of my life, it would clearly benefit our children if you stayed sober. So here's my suggestion: Forget courts and child support payments and all of that -- leave all the legal documentation as it is, and just let the kids stay with me full time as a default, and then you can see them when you have the energy to and want to. And when you've been sober for 18 months or 2 years or feel that you've gotten in the groove of your new life -- we'll go back to them spending half the time with you."

All he sees is "you're trying to establish a precedent so you can take my children away from me."

So when I talk to him about this, his interpretation is that I'm turning the children against him...

m1k3

Try anyway for the sake of your daughter IF you are comfortable that you can remain detached. The answer to the unasked question is always no.

One other thing, my one daughter handled her relationship with her AM by writing. We would often find notes slipped under the bedroom door the morning after a fight. Perhaps a letter from her would be a less traumatic way for her to communicate with him. It would let her take a deep breadth and present all her issues without being interrupted and without the drama of a face to face confrontation. it was surprisingly effective with my AW.

(((hugs)))

Tuffgirl

This is an excellent idea! That way, you (lillamy) can come at this in as neutral as possible. I understand your daughter not wanting to talk with him directly, but she really needs to. I made it very clear with my daughters that their relationship with their Father was theirs, not mine. I do not step in unless either asks me specifically to and usually as a pass-through communicator. But...as you pointed out...even the most rational of offers turns into a power struggle (as usual with an A) so having something in writing that your daughter does not want to see her Father would be a good thing to have.

I would also consider consulting with your lawyer on how to handle this. I know its expensive every time we pick up the phone to call those guys...but having an idea about what to expect if she refuses to go would probably ease your mind and hers.

Keep us posted. It still chaps me that a 12 yr old is not able to make her own decisions regarding visitation.

m1k3

One of the things my daughter told me, she's almost 31 now, is that a lot of the notes were never given to her AM, she simply felt better for writing them.

Seeking Wisdom

Lillamy - My heart goes out to you. We try our hardest to be the best parents we can be given the circumstances we sometimes unfairly have thrust upon us.

I personally feel one of the biggest failings of our court systems is letting parents with alcohol or drug addiction issues have unsupervised custody.

As more information becomes available about the true nature of addiction ... such as how difficult it is to overcome and the high likelihood of the addict lying to conceal their ongoing usage. Fortunately, exposure due to the never ending relapses of famous people captured by the media all while they claim sobriety ... has greatly increased the public's awareness regarding the sobriety and honesty when dealing with addicts. Hopefully someday severe limits will be put on custody arrangements for parents with alcohol and drug addictions.

I speak as someone who was married to an alcoholic and as a child of an alcoholic. Both my alcoholic husband and father thought nothing of driving around impaired with young children in the car. I still have vivid memories of my husband being left for just 15 minutes with the care of my sick youngest child requiring constant supervision when even a small injury could cause hemoraging ... and then coming home and finding my husband passed out on the floor and my 4 year old running around the house unsupervised. This is something he never would have done sober - which of course he had tried to convince me he had been. I never left my young children alone with him again - only because I was still married, if I had been divorced and he had custody I would not have had that right.

As a young child, I can still remember one of the rare times my brother and I were left under the supervision of my father. He was a binge drinker and once, when my mother was in the hospital, he started drinking as soon as she was out of the house. He then drove us to visit a friend of his with more to drink ... and while during back home, my father was pulled over by the police due to erractic driving. When we got to our house the police quickly looked around and found vodka hidden in the kitchen before leaving us in the care of my drunken father. This was a long time ago - but at what level is it ever acceptable to have a drunk supervising young children. Yet even today the courts allow this all the time.

Maybe as awareness increases, our legal system will come to terms that those with addiction issues are not easily reformed and will most likely secretly continue their addiction ... all while claiming soberiety and putting our children in danger - both physically and emotionally. Other options for custody need to be considered while acknowledging the likely reality of ongoing addiction. Turning childrens’ care over to an active acoholic or drug addict needs to be regarded as a form of court sanctioned child abuse and endangerment. Hopefully changes to protect our children will come as awareness increases ... it is long overdue.