1 stp. Question for the AAs
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
1 stp. Question for the AAs
Here is my question, I've read the Big Book and am still not clear, do you believe that you are powerless over alcohol all the time or only after you take that first drink?
Please I am not trying to start a flame war. I've been reading and it seem a lot of very sober people on here use AA so I am just asking what you all think, or perhaps AA has spoken this issue in their literature.
Thanks to anyone that chooses to respond!
Please I am not trying to start a flame war. I've been reading and it seem a lot of very sober people on here use AA so I am just asking what you all think, or perhaps AA has spoken this issue in their literature.
Thanks to anyone that chooses to respond!
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
I am POWERLESS over alcohol. As long as I don't pick up that first drink I have a chance.
It is still my choice to pick up a drink. Haven't found it necessary to do that for a very LONG time. However, if I were to pick up that 'first' drink, my life would again become UNMANAGEABLE.
It is very 'simple' now for this alkie. Took me a while to get Step 1. Had to ACCEPT to the very core of my being that I am POWERLESS over alcohol and that took some time, but I wanted to be able to 'build' on Step 1, therefore, Step 1 had to be set in concrete and granite and not sand.
J M H O
Hope the above helps.
Love and hugs,
It is still my choice to pick up a drink. Haven't found it necessary to do that for a very LONG time. However, if I were to pick up that 'first' drink, my life would again become UNMANAGEABLE.
It is very 'simple' now for this alkie. Took me a while to get Step 1. Had to ACCEPT to the very core of my being that I am POWERLESS over alcohol and that took some time, but I wanted to be able to 'build' on Step 1, therefore, Step 1 had to be set in concrete and granite and not sand.
J M H O
Hope the above helps.
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,493
it is a good idea to sit down with somebody who has been through the programme and go through the book together.
i am powerless over alcohol period...not after i lift the first drink,i am powerless over the thought.
the doctors opinion,bills story,there is a solution and more about alcoholism talk about the illness and give us the necessary information we need to decide wether we need a power greater than ourselves.
unfortunatly in a lot of meetings we are told to just stay away from the first drink.in fact our big book tells us that this IS NOT POSSIBLE for a real alcoholic.
it has been said so many times but i will say it again anyhow,in the hope that it may help someone...if we had the power of choice over the first drink then we wouldnt need AA,wouldnt need the programme and wouldnt need a power greater than ourselves...we would just "choose" not to drink.
all the tradgedies,losses,shame guilt and remorse were never enough to stop me drinking.....i had NO CHOICE"....POWERLESS....we start off the physical craving once we lift a drink...but before that comes the mental obsession...for me wether i had sworn off for a little while...or not...wether things were good or bad,or indifferent..my head would always tell me it would be different this time...i would manage better...or sometimes i just didnt think at all.
before the mental obsession comes the "spiritual malady" the book talks about...am i restless,irritable and discontent with my lot?...that is where my illness starts and that is why i need a new outlook on life and a higher power to guide me.i have to be convinced i have no power....AT ALL.not just once ive started drinking...which is gona happen wether i want it to or not.
i am powerless over alcohol period...not after i lift the first drink,i am powerless over the thought.
the doctors opinion,bills story,there is a solution and more about alcoholism talk about the illness and give us the necessary information we need to decide wether we need a power greater than ourselves.
unfortunatly in a lot of meetings we are told to just stay away from the first drink.in fact our big book tells us that this IS NOT POSSIBLE for a real alcoholic.
it has been said so many times but i will say it again anyhow,in the hope that it may help someone...if we had the power of choice over the first drink then we wouldnt need AA,wouldnt need the programme and wouldnt need a power greater than ourselves...we would just "choose" not to drink.
all the tradgedies,losses,shame guilt and remorse were never enough to stop me drinking.....i had NO CHOICE"....POWERLESS....we start off the physical craving once we lift a drink...but before that comes the mental obsession...for me wether i had sworn off for a little while...or not...wether things were good or bad,or indifferent..my head would always tell me it would be different this time...i would manage better...or sometimes i just didnt think at all.
before the mental obsession comes the "spiritual malady" the book talks about...am i restless,irritable and discontent with my lot?...that is where my illness starts and that is why i need a new outlook on life and a higher power to guide me.i have to be convinced i have no power....AT ALL.not just once ive started drinking...which is gona happen wether i want it to or not.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Here is what AA says:
Many people that visit this site resist this notion entirely. So did I. I resisted until I had experienced the powerlessness the book is talking about.
I look at my results, not what I think about those results. The facts were, I kept picking up a drink after I decided and promised I wouldn't do that any more. My interpretation of those events was that I made a conscious choice to pick up that drink. But the result (the fact) was that I picked up the drink. I obviously didn't have the power to NOT pick up that drink. If I did, I wouldn't have picked it up.
I see hundreds of people relapse every year who believe that they have the power to choose whether or not they pick up that drink. The result is, they pick up a drink. Now, if picking up a drink after you've proclaimed that you wouldn't pick up a drink makes you feel good about having some power, then you are welcome to that power. The result is, those folks still end up drunk and demoralized and pitiful.
This topic gets brought up all the time by people who repeat the cycle of not drink for a few months, and then get drunk. Funny definition of power.
Originally Posted by AA BB 1st
The tragic truth is that if the man be a real alcoholic, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
I look at my results, not what I think about those results. The facts were, I kept picking up a drink after I decided and promised I wouldn't do that any more. My interpretation of those events was that I made a conscious choice to pick up that drink. But the result (the fact) was that I picked up the drink. I obviously didn't have the power to NOT pick up that drink. If I did, I wouldn't have picked it up.
I see hundreds of people relapse every year who believe that they have the power to choose whether or not they pick up that drink. The result is, they pick up a drink. Now, if picking up a drink after you've proclaimed that you wouldn't pick up a drink makes you feel good about having some power, then you are welcome to that power. The result is, those folks still end up drunk and demoralized and pitiful.
This topic gets brought up all the time by people who repeat the cycle of not drink for a few months, and then get drunk. Funny definition of power.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by ru12 
Please I am not trying to start a flame war. I've been reading and it seem a lot of very sober people on here use AA so I am just asking what you all think, or perhaps AA has spoken this issue in their literature.
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem."
(page 45)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Wow! Thanks so much for all the input. So far I just don't drink. That is working now, but I think I would like done fellowship with people like me. I'm going to do some more reading. Really, thanks for taking the time to address me.
Strive to be alive!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Better place than where I came from
Posts: 549
ru12 - Keep in mind that although reading is a good thing. Anything to futher educate yourself certainly cannot hurt. But just reading is not going to "solve" anything nor is "just not drinking".
It's the "action" you take and changes that you make that move a person forward. You cannot just read about recovery you have to participate in it.
Keep posting and if yourself is telling you AA seems like a good idea. Listen to yourself and at least attend one meeting. Mark my words - YOU WILL NOT BE SORRY!
It's the "action" you take and changes that you make that move a person forward. You cannot just read about recovery you have to participate in it.
Keep posting and if yourself is telling you AA seems like a good idea. Listen to yourself and at least attend one meeting. Mark my words - YOU WILL NOT BE SORRY!
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
It was explained to me (and this is just one person's es&h)...
That we were, past tense, the step is written in past tense...
We were powerless...
Without power was described to me as without God who is the source of all power...(not about control).
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. Past tense again.
Once we have the power, we are not power-less. Can't have it both ways, have the power, and be powerless.
This works for me.
May not work for others, and that's okay.
I believe alcohol had me turn away from God which is the source of all power, and that I was without God, or powerless when it came to alcohol. When I hit bottom, and go through the process which turns me back to God, the power is restored, and I am no longer without power, or powerless.
I have power (God) against the drink. I have tools of the AA program.
I am not powerless over alcohol, I was powerless over alcohol, I have recovered from a state of powerlessness.
This is just the way I see it.
Hope that is somewhat helpful as to another point of view.
Right or wrong...don't know for sure, but works for me.
It was explained to me (and this is just one person's es&h)...
That we were, past tense, the step is written in past tense...
We were powerless...
Without power was described to me as without God who is the source of all power...(not about control).
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. Past tense again.
Once we have the power, we are not power-less. Can't have it both ways, have the power, and be powerless.
This works for me.
May not work for others, and that's okay.
I believe alcohol had me turn away from God which is the source of all power, and that I was without God, or powerless when it came to alcohol. When I hit bottom, and go through the process which turns me back to God, the power is restored, and I am no longer without power, or powerless.
I have power (God) against the drink. I have tools of the AA program.
I am not powerless over alcohol, I was powerless over alcohol, I have recovered from a state of powerlessness.
This is just the way I see it.
Hope that is somewhat helpful as to another point of view.
Right or wrong...don't know for sure, but works for me.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Veritas1
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
It was explained to me (and this is just one person's es&h)...
That we were, past tense, the step is written in past tense...
We were powerless...
It was explained to me (and this is just one person's es&h)...
That we were, past tense, the step is written in past tense...
We were powerless...
ALL the steps were written in past tense because they described what they did or what happened. To assume they (we) WERE powerless but are no longer because the step was written in past tense would also mean we'd seek once in step 11 and not seek again......since it was "sought" in the step - also past tense -or- that we only "come to believe" once because it was "came"...past tense, -or- .....you get the idea.
Let's say I get aids today 2/27/11......there's no known cure, right? right. Let's also pretend that 6 months from now there's a miracle in my life and the virus just disappears. I'm the recipient of a miracle and I'm cured. When asked after I'm cured what happened, I'd say that on 2/27 I admitted I had aids and that I was powerless over it. That in no way would mean that on 2/28 I suddenly had power over aids. In fact.....I was powerless over it up until the time the miracle happened....and I was powerless over the miracle....and I'm still powerless over it (if I were to get it again) --I'm just describing what I did in the past so all the verbs have to be past tense....that, however, has nothing to do with whether that particular thing or event continues to be true.
Everyone on this board, today, could "admit" that we're powerless to control the temperature of the sun - obviously. If tomorrow, if someone asked you "what did you guys do yesterday?" You'd respond, "We admitted we were powerless over the sun." ..... that in no way means we today have power over the sun.
......just offering a literary explanation. I believed I had power over booze so long as I didn't put it into my body........until I offered that thought up to God and "considered" it with His direction for several months. Turns out, I was delusional on that subject and I didn't/don't have power over alcohol drunk or sober......the best I can do on my own power is start drinking and keep drinking.
I love this place.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 329
I am powerless over it, all the time. I can't take a drink, ever again. If I do, the snowball starts again, each time getting worse. That's been my personal experience and many others I have learned.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Trenches, Texas
Posts: 778
pg 43 talks about that at certain times the person from page 21 has no effective mental defense against the first drink. I wonder what the definition of "certain times" is??? Certain times are described quite well on pg. 32, pg.36, and pg. 41 is my favorite, not a cloud on the horizon...
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Never given it a lot of thought really...i'm staying in a Hotel and have minis, beers and other alcohol in the mini bar...they don't jump out and get me at night nor do i feel my "power" sapping lol
Seriously though when i came in it was an admission or powerlessness over alcohol in the respect that i couldn't stay away from it for long and i couldn't just have one drink...after having a spiritual awakening and other realisations i realised that i was powerless over many other things other than alcohol and as i grew alcohol didn't feature anymore in my life...
Don't know if that helps? I suppose you can keep alcohol in your life, keep it at the forefront of your mind and continue whatever battle of will...or just do the work suggested in AA and move on?!
Seriously though when i came in it was an admission or powerlessness over alcohol in the respect that i couldn't stay away from it for long and i couldn't just have one drink...after having a spiritual awakening and other realisations i realised that i was powerless over many other things other than alcohol and as i grew alcohol didn't feature anymore in my life...
Don't know if that helps? I suppose you can keep alcohol in your life, keep it at the forefront of your mind and continue whatever battle of will...or just do the work suggested in AA and move on?!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by DayTrader
On a side note......and not to offend Veritas or derail this thread.......allow me to offer a different point of view to consider.
ALL the steps were written in past tense because they described what they did or what happened. To assume they (we) WERE powerless but are no longer because the step was written in past tense would also mean we'd seek once in step 11 and not seek again......since it was "sought" in the step - also past tense -or- that we only "come to believe" once because it was "came"...past tense, -or- .....you get the idea.
.
ALL the steps were written in past tense because they described what they did or what happened. To assume they (we) WERE powerless but are no longer because the step was written in past tense would also mean we'd seek once in step 11 and not seek again......since it was "sought" in the step - also past tense -or- that we only "come to believe" once because it was "came"...past tense, -or- .....you get the idea.
.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
I have no idea what "at certain times" looks like. That is one of the characteristics of powerlessness. Others on this site think they do and call them "triggers". They seem to delight in the thought that if they manage their "triggers" well they will not return to drink, therefore keep themselves sober. The nature of powerlessness is that when take a drink, the drink takes me. It sets off a madness to continue drinking until it lets go. And then once I'm separated from booze, I have a madness that invariably takes me back to a drink. I'm caught in a trap that I can't spring. What I've found is that if I don't know what "at certain times" looks like, and I don't, because it has come for me at the end of a perfect day, not a cloud on horizon, I need to work diligently to maintain spiritual fitness. That IS my only defense.
Ch5 HOW
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by ru12
Wow! Thanks so much for all the input. So far I just don't drink. That is working now, but I think I would like done fellowship with people like me. I'm going to do some more reading. Really, thanks for taking the time to address me.
not so fast...
powerless over it in an unfit spiritual condition because i have suffered from "strange mental blank spots" where i am drunk and i didnt mean to be. i said i was done drinking for good many times, and meant it, but always went back to that which was killing me.
it is important to see the insanity in Step One (that i commit the most insane thing stone cold sober-- which is taking the first one with overwhelming knowledge and experience that it is a bad idea).
Seeing that insanity in Step One will bring me to believing that a Power can restore my sanity in Step 2.
Hope this tidbit helps
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
I thought of one more idea, could be right, could be wrong.
I was taught that powerless is only mentioned one time in the book.
Whereas power is mentioned over 60...can't recall exact number, I will check to be sure.
Power is the deal, not powerless...
We get the power back to resist the alcohol, so we are not powerless anymore.
Interesting thread, and all good things to consider.
I was taught that powerless is only mentioned one time in the book.
Whereas power is mentioned over 60...can't recall exact number, I will check to be sure.
Power is the deal, not powerless...
We get the power back to resist the alcohol, so we are not powerless anymore.
Interesting thread, and all good things to consider.
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,452
[QUOTE=DayTrader;2880303] To assume they (we) WERE powerless but are no longer because the step was written in past tense ...QUOTE]
Hey DT...
I think what was taught to me was not so much about the past tense...but that...
They were powerless, without God
Now they had God, thus not powerless.
Had been without God, now have God through the steps...so not without power, or powerless anymore.
Lack of power that was our dilemma, but we get the power through the steps, so we are not without power anymore...
Like Boleo added from the book...
The main object of the book is to find the power which solves the problem.
Once we find the power, we are not without the power, not power-less.
I hope that makes some sense...
This is how it was explained to me.
Hey DT...
I think what was taught to me was not so much about the past tense...but that...
They were powerless, without God
Now they had God, thus not powerless.
Had been without God, now have God through the steps...so not without power, or powerless anymore.
Lack of power that was our dilemma, but we get the power through the steps, so we are not without power anymore...
Like Boleo added from the book...
The main object of the book is to find the power which solves the problem.
Once we find the power, we are not without the power, not power-less.
I hope that makes some sense...
This is how it was explained to me.
Ch5 HOW
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Veritas1
I thought of one more idea, could be right, could be wrong.
I was taught that powerless is only mentioned one time in the book.
Whereas power is mentioned over 60...can't recall exact number, I will check to be sure.
Power is the deal, not powerless...
We get the power back to resist the alcohol, so we are not powerless anymore.
Interesting thread, and all good things to consider.
I was taught that powerless is only mentioned one time in the book.
Whereas power is mentioned over 60...can't recall exact number, I will check to be sure.
Power is the deal, not powerless...
We get the power back to resist the alcohol, so we are not powerless anymore.
Interesting thread, and all good things to consider.
So our founders spend a large part of the working text in the problem (Step One), they have a Chapter (We Agnostics) where they give us the answer (Step Two) and then the rest of the text has specific directions on how to get the Power.
They may say powerless only once, but i think words and phrases like hopeless, real alcoholic, alcoholic of our type, etc are synonymous with powerless.
Also the short form of step 1 is we admitted that we WERE powerless over alcohol......"were" in the past tense, meaning that we arent anymore. The first promise of hope is that we RECOVER so if we are in a recovered state, how can we always be powerless?
The truth for me is that I have tapped into great POWER and I know longer suffer from alcoholism....and I believe that to be true for many of the posters that post in this 12 step forum, judging by your posts because your posts sound like recovered people have written them.
Sorry for my rant, I will go to sleep now
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