Kassie2

Hi, new on this section of the forum. I came to this site because my spouse is A. However, in all of the reading and talking to people I realized that my experience of living with and dealing with a family member was not a new one. When I first came here, I was devastated by my experience thinking that this was something I have never been through before and was looking for answers or support. Only recently did I recognize the denial I had been living with for an entire life.

I was raised by at least one A parent (to my knowledge) the other one died when I was young so I don't know about their usage. That parent is also deceased. But I am here because I am amazed that I kept that secret so long. I only spoke up my entire life when she was dying- first when I discovered that the hospice nurse had stored up a lot of drugs in the home "to ease her pain" and the second time when she entered the hospital for the last time screaming for her pocketbook "because that is where she kept her pills" -yes even in the hospital. I was so afraid that she would accidently overdose. AT the time I didn't think twice about informing the doctors and nurses and didn't realize that those words never came out of my mouth my whole life. It was the first time I noted that I kept the secret for 47 years.

But she died and I forgot it again. Ten years later I am here and wondering how I got here. The readings on this section are very enlightening. I plan to go through the list of characteristics one at a time and sort out the secrets of a lifetime.

So I may be posting here as sort of a journal for my thoughts as go on this journey and if you like, lend me your comments and support.

This week I am focusing on loyalty beyond the call. I stayed loyal to my mother when all others in my life told me it was ok to walk away and never look back. I took care of her when others told me that she threatened my life and was determined to crush me. I kept this secret for so long and I don't even know why?
I made many decisions that affected my life negatively just to maintain that loyalty. I let go of people and opportunities that would have helped me to be cared for equally and to find satisfying compensation for my work.
I made decisions to be loyal to my husband when it is clearly undeserved and has caused so much pain and chaos in my life. Again, I was warned to leave as the burden was killing me but I thought I had to stay.
I made decisions to stay in jobs, worked hard for little return, worked long hours unpaid for, worked a schedule that interrupted a normal life, worked for difficult people and clients.

I always believed the best of others and that part of it i don't want to lose. So I will believe in the best of others, begin to believe in the best of me, look for signs whether my loyalty is warranted or not and to what degree.

Oh, I already know this will be hard. I have taken baby steps in some areas and it so unsettling.

lc1972

Good Morning Kassie

I find it so strange how much we have in common. I just ordered two books to help me discover more about myself with regards to growing up with an addict. I truly have only just begun to connect the fact I married an addict to growing up with one. Though my story is a bit different everyone knew about my fathers drinking and knew my mom was crazy. They just never thought it was all that bad in our home. It was not till now that I have family members calling me and asking how I held it together, I am the oldest of 4 kids.

If I come across any good reads I will let you know. I am reading "It will never happen to me" right now. I have only gotten past two chapters and so far it is pretty good. I ordered it through NOOK PC so I got to download it immediately.

tromboneliness

This is what got my attention. Sometimes, co-dependency/enabling/fixing/controlling can look a lot like loyalty. "I can't leave, he/she will drink him/herself to death without me" is easy to fall into. It's not strictly black-and-white, either -- the program teaches us that we can't fix alcoholics/druggies and that they're going to do what they're going to do, no matter how we might try to fix them. But there are cases (I'm thinking of a couple I know IRL) where one spouse is -- by sheer force of will and constant monitoring -- able to intimidate her husband into staying sober (obviously, he wants to stay sober, otherwise he'd find a way to drink despite her efforts). As far as I'm concerned, if that's how they want to live, who am I to gainsay that?

Sometimes, though, the motives behind loyalty are more self-directed, e.g., if I cut off contact, the person will drink/drug him/herself to death, and it will be my fault because I could have prevented it. Or just, if I cut off contact, the person will drink/drug him/herself into a bad state, and I'll feel really bad because I could have prevented it. I hear this a lot at Al-Anon meetings... and it happened to me at times in the "Bad Old Days," when my wife was drinking/ill. Someone at a meeting said that they'd left an alcoholic, and a week or two later, the alkie committed suicide -- the Al-Anon member felt that it was her fault. At the time, my wife was very ill, and I felt that if I left her because of her refusal to get sober, she'd end up dead and it would be my fault, and I'd have to live with that for the rest of my life. Some long-timers at the meeting helped me to understand that what she did was her doing, not mine, and that I was neither capable of nor responsible for fixing her problem.

That's the thing -- for the most part, we do not have the ability to control an alcoholic's drinking (drugging, etc.). All we have is the illusion of control. If there were a way to make someone give up booze/drugs, believe me, the forum administrators would have it pasted up at the top of the forum under the heading: Sticky, Read First: How To Get Someone off Booze and Drugs. You could just read the topic, follow the instructions, and voilà!, problem solved, happily ever after. But that ain't how it works....

T

GingerM

You just made my day with that statement, T! I nearly snorted coffee out of my nose! Wouldn't that be grand? For that matter, wouldn't it be grand if we actually DID have the ability to control others' actions?

Think about it! That person who's been driving along with their right turn signal on for the last three miles through city streets? We could teach them how to properly use turn signals! The person at the grocery store who can't seem to count to 12 in the express lane? We could fix them too! The people who spend their lives imagining that the world is out to get them? Let's fix them too! The three horsemen of the apocalypse? Hey! We can fix them!

We can fix all the examples above about as well as we can fix our parents. If we could, we would have by now (and the turn signal people are second on the list after my parents). But alas, we can't. The only people we have true control over is ourselves. We can fix US. We can't fix them. We can support them *once they've decided to fix themselves*, but we can't do anything until then except watch them kill themselves in whatever manner they've chosen.

It's a sad reality, but to deny that reality only leads to heartache.

cymbal

Welcome!

Its okay that you forgot.
I think its one of the coping mechanisms (?).
This item is too much, so it'll go on the back burner until such time as I am able to cope differently.
You're not alone because I have so many of those items too.
(((((hugs)))))
Its baby steps, remember. One day at a time!
Forward is great even when late... ?

Kassie2

Last night I saw this:

How keeping secrets kept me from seeing what the truth of a situation/person was and why my decisions backfired on me. I maintained loyalty to people and situations based on unrealistic views and made decisions that I was uncomfortable following through on. So becoming aware of when I am uncomfortable to listen and look more closely.

How keeping secrets led to so many poor decisions. My loyalty wasn't based on real facts and so the decisions didn't affect things the way I was thinking they could. So I will based my loyalty on facts, weighing pros and cons and getting rid of the nonsense that clouds my thinking.

How keeping secrets led to false hopes and the crash of my wishes, hopes and dreams. This has been my biggest complaint since coming here and now I get it. I was in control of granting my wishes, hopes and dreams if only would look at what was really in front of me.

How keeping secrets was a choice I made - it was not forced - and so I get I to choose again and more wisely this time.

How keeping secrets had my loyalties tied to the worst possible people and situations rather than the best. So in choosing more wisely - i can move in/out situations as I am honest about what is best for me.

lc1972

I am currently reading " It Will Never Happen to Me" and I have found so much information. Anyone that was brought up in a chemically induced home would like this book. I have only gotten to chapter five, but they go into the keeping secrets. The fear that children grow up with and the different reasons why they begin to keep secrets. Also the different roles that children play in the household to adapt to their situation. I downloaded it through NOOK PC and if anyone wants a loan I will figure out how I can forward it. It also only cost my $4.99 to download it so it is not to expensive.

I also would like to ask have any of you experienced or done the lying thing. I know I used to lie all the time about stupid things.

Kassie2

Lc - only do the lying thing about the A, but my daughter does the lying thing about everything. It used to drive me and her brother crazy. Then last year after being on her own - she came to me to admit that she does this and how it makes her feel. She had no explanation for it - i just listened and reminded her that it is not the worst thing in the world and not that she is aware - she can change it one statement at a time.

My thought is that is comes from a desire to keep the peace and not confront anything negative - a denial thing. I imagine like any other trait we have for a long time - it will take work to change it. Be kind to yourself while you do.

Just like secrets - eventually it erodes your life because you are not facing the truth of a situation or person.

Payne

I have been working on the excessive loyalty myself, I find people around me I want to stand by, but I'm learning to put myself and my needs first. When it hits a time that I feel my loyalty is being tested I try to ask myself, "is my loyalty being tested or my fear of not being loved." I found those two tend to go hand in hand. When I look at it with people I trust love me and will continue even if I don't agree with their stupid plans I realize that more often it isn't truly loyalty for me, its the fear of not being loved.
And Kassie I have been working through them one by one myself and plan to continue, with the loyalty one I also decided to work on taking myself too seriously, that one seemed scary but fun. With people around me I trust I think it will be nice to "let my hair down" and just have fun...I think their hoping I do it literally too! I would love to read your experiences as you take this journey too Kassie

wicked

Okay, Payne I love this. Just love it.
Yes, I do it too.

Beth

cymbal

I really understand about the epiphanies.

I remember one of mine being that I had this equation:

abuse=love

Once I figured out that I had it confused somehow. I could then ask for HP's help to try to change for myself.

I remember gaslighting. My reality was not the same as loved one's. It helps to have labels for things that didn't have labels as a child but were "normal". I think recognizing my distorted perceptions helped move me forward.

I'm still not sure if its not still a secret. I have tried to release bits, and I share in safe places like Al-Anon & CR.

Thank you for sharing, and thanks for letting me share.

Kassie2

(((cymbal))) I learned that equation too : abuse= love - I really needed some distance from my family to find out what normal is and realign my being. It is a lot to translate but well worth the effort. I kept that a secret most of my life too despite inquiring minds of teachers and doctors.

Hang in there with me and others here - thanks for sharing.

Kassie2

What did I learn today? When I got to work the day started out with someone coming to greet me with a hug. Said she felt better after - it works both ways. The day ended with a co-worker who had a small present for me - she bought me a box of my favorite cookies since I am not able to get to the store that carries them far away.

Loyalities - I reflected on how these are the people and actions that deserve my loyality. How different they are from the person who raised me and the two exh I had. Mostly I am forced to look at how I treat myself. I got a physical this morning - something I never made time for before. I came home to say good bye as my daughter returns to college - she waited for me - I am sad but instead of feeling sorry for me - I am reminded that I am loved by my kids and there is a whole world of positive support when I need it.

Thanks!

Payne

My friend and I were laughing today about how when she first met me we were hanging out one night and I kept picking a fight with her. Suddenly it clicked for her and she asked me, "is this what you need? Do you need me to fight with you so you know I care?" I have been called out trying to start this a couple times since then and I always get stopped in my tracks. It's a joke now and I'm glad it was and is pointed out to me, because she was right. I grew up and the only attention I tended to find was negative, i didn't and often still don't know how to process positive attention. I used to assume that if someone wasn't "fighting for me" (aka with me) that they didn't care enough to do it. I couldn't grasp that maybe they just loved me..."warts and all"

Kassie2

(((payne))) my mother used to be that way and I was so relieved the day I recognized it and tho I tried to explain it to her - she never understood. My version was much milder - I fought when it was time to say good bye - but great insight and learning to share.

Learning today - Had been reflecting on the activities and causes that I was loyal to over my lifetime to discover that they did not always serve me well. The recurring theme I recall is "no pain - no gain" or "to sacrifice was better than to be selfish" etc. I probably have a list but won't bore readers.

It was amazing that I always thought it was better to suffer than to have a good time. I often sacrificed my needs or wants for the needs or wants of others. I couldn't stand up for my needs or wants. I didn't know the difference between caring for myself and caring for others. I didn't mind the bad behavior of others if I understood it.

Then I wondered why people would abandon me or withdraw from me when they could see what i couldn't. I didn't understand why others couldn't sacrifice their happiness, couldn't give up their dreams etc when it seemed so easy and the right thing to do.

Getting on with my life has been a serious challenge to this thinking which is why I chose it first.
I stayed in an abusive relationship because I thought that underneath it all they loved me. (Whether or not they loved me - it was no way to show it- no way I should have accepted it - and no way live)
I chose difficult relationships because I thought that I understood them and they would love me for it.(Whether or not I understood them did not translate into love and vice versa)
I stood for causes and beliefs that called for sacrifices etc because I thought that was the only way to reach goals.( Sometimes this is necessary but there is a time a place and not every challenge has to be addressed by me)
I took challenging jobs/positions because it was my calling. (Not a calling but a learned behavior pattern and thought pattern that needs a major adjustment!)

Today I was forced to be near my estranged AH at work - there is a look that tells me when he is shut down and angry at the world - there is a look that tells me he is ashamed for his behavior - there is a look that tells me he is sorry - and there is a look that says I am ok. Today I saw the look that says I am doing ok today and it was hard not to want to be with him. Later I had to look at my reaction and thinking to understand what is going on with me. After all that he has puts me through - I can't understand my reaction. So I am glad there is a chat tonight and just will caulk it up to "you can love someone but from do it from a distance for your own sake". If he is ok it isn't because I am in his life - it is something with him and I have nothing to do with it - just like I want out to be out of the way when I see all the other "looks"

Kassie2

Well, today I had the opportunity to tell someone about my mother. It was one of her best friends who made a decision to be there for me - and she knew a lot of truth but always waited for me to tell her. Today when I shared about the addiction - she was surprised but just listened and validated me. I knew there was a reason we stayed in contact after my mother's death - she just seems to get me. She then shared her experiences with her first husband who was a raging A. It was such a positive and uplifting talk we had. I feel grateful when others understand.

She shared with me a story about her holidays in the past and it was so similar to mine with current AH.

Then we both day dreamed for a short time about how things might be different if we had been able to tell someone the truth sooner in our lives. Good things - no regrets this time - just taking stock of the truth and seeing what it looks like to apply.

And today with all the snow - even with my sprained wrist - and sore back - instead of resentment that I am having to do it all myself - I am choosing not to worry and choosing to feel grateful that I have choices - living here is my choice. Yeah! no resentments!

blinds8

I think alot of people know they can't control it but as time goes on after so long feelings and emotions get ignored thinking gets twisted and everything goes amuck in the family system the bottle is in the center of the family universe and everyone in the place helps the sick alcoholic but he always returns to the bottle and when he does hes the center of the familys universe he's God. So, it can be dangerous ground for a recovering alcoholic in the home when there is a still practicing alcoholic the family hiearchy can change at the drop of the hat and I listen carefully and watch the pattern of addiction that takes place and mind games that take place and emotional problems I have I look where I'm at in everyday life and here I equate relationships with people here the same as out in the world so that way everyone becomes equal to me i get a different view

Kassie2

I reflected on what i had to contribute to my learning yesterday and what to consider for today.

To prevent a long story line: was snowed in and needing help after falling three times. Noticed neighbors finishing up their drives and inspecting their work - talking to each other but none seemed to notice my falls nor asked if I was ok nor did they offer to help me out.

In contrast, my son lives with his father and they offered to come over and help when I called and they finished mine and my other neighbors walk way and drive.

That neighbor called to thank the guys which led to a discussion what happened earlier. She also notices that we struggle and they don't offer to help. I needed a prescription and she offered to go get for me.

I began to size up a few things about my relationships. On the theme of loyalty. My son left because of my current AH. My AH no longer lives with me and so my son comes when I need him. My ex who did not get along with my AH also helps out now. My neighbor never talked to me before this year and now she is calling and checking on me. My other neighbors used to help out but no longer offer.

My family doesn't talk to me nor help me out because they blame me for the problems with my mother. They don't know the truth and don't want to hear it.

My co workers this week showed me that think about me at times and are aware of my wants and needs more than my family ever did.

So I am going to be loyal to those who are there for me and step back from my expectations that the ones who should care don't.

Kassie2

Just read the "breaking of dysfunctional family patterns" (sticky at the top of the forum)

Came here to sort out where the lonliness part fits in - the kind where deep down you have never had the knowledge that someone will be there to help out with things. Or the times I was married or had close friendships that didn't last. Or the times I joined spiritual activities/church/group functions/classes that are time sensitive only to discover that yet again most ppl expect others to have family or someone else there to help out.

Now I see it as a combination of the two constants in my life - the abuse/narcisscism/d/a use and my life long desire to a different kind of life. To stop the patterns which doomed my biol family and to give myself and my kids different choices. Interium info - when I speak of my family I do not include my father who died early in my life. He is actually my inspiration for the change as he was the one person from whom I felt loved and appreciated.

My family use to make jokes and made up names for me because I wanted to live differently - like flower child (to appreciate everything in life), peace child (to learn to compromise), wandering jew/christian- after the plant? (to separate myself from the dysfunction and help others), hippie child (I wanted a loving, peaceful and giving lifestyle), the professor ( I read a lot to support the change - educating myself and learning new tools), miss independent ( had to be strong to make the change).

This was helpful.... it reminds that with all my slips and falls back into old patterns from time to time that I really spent a life trying to break the pattern - to give myself and my kids and grandkids more choices in life. A gift that both my kids now appreciate in part as they have actually thanked me repeatedly for standing up as I have over the years. Priceless.

Ok, right now I feel stupid for the lonliness... I forgot how far I have come and all that I have accomplished. It has been very hard... but well worth it.

GingerM

One can be very accomplished, yet still be lonely. The two are not mutually exclusive. The art of learning to be comfortable with your loneliness is not a simple one.

I consider myself fairly far along the recovery path. Most people who didn't know me in my younger days are surprised at what my background is because I seem so "normal" to them. Yet just a few nights ago, I hung up on my father mid-sentence because he was drunk and belligerent and I refuse to argue with a drunk. And I felt very very alone. My mother was/is incapable of loving me, and I always wondered if my father loved me or if I just got in his way. Here I am in middle age and nothing has changed in that regard. And sometimes? Sometimes I still feel very alone. But I am more comfortable with the loneliness than I used to be. So I acknowledge being lonely, I feel bad for a while, then I move on with my life.

Our culture seems to distort expectations about life. We are not meant to be perpetually happy (people who are perpetually happy are usually either sick or insane). We have happy moments, we have sad moments. Loneliness is a sad place to be. Learning to accept that sadness has equal value as happiness (it does, really) and to accept that sometimes we will feel sad, has made a huge difference for me.