Need some of that good old ES&H
Awakening
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Need some of that good old ES&H
I'll start with a little back story, to help clarify the situation.
Divorced 4+ years from very active alcoholic wife, I have full custody of 9yo little girl.
Mom has standard supervised visitation, every other weekend, Christmas vacation, spring break, and half of summer. Due to her alcoholism, she hasn't worked for 5+ years, is broke and lives over 3 hours away (thank you HP), so basically only sees LMC (Little Miss Coyote) summer, Christmas, and sp. break. Not my problem.
My problem........she calls often, probably 3-4 times a week and leaves messages for LMC/me to call her. I don't want/like to talk to her, she is often toxic.
Basically, LMC is pi$$ed at her and doesn't want to talk. The therapist told me years ago not to MAKE her talk, and I agree, so I don't.
Here's my dilemma, I feel like I "SHOULD" call her every so often, maybe weekly or so, to at least give her a quick update on LMC's life, etc.. I feel "GUILTY" for not doing this often enough.
Calling the mom doesn't always cause me any great discomfort, unless she starts the quacking which is about 50/50, then I just say goodbye. And often times, LMC will get excited about something I'm telling mom about and take the phone and have a convo w/mom. So I guess it's a good thing.
IDK, I appreciate some other's perspectives.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Divorced 4+ years from very active alcoholic wife, I have full custody of 9yo little girl.
Mom has standard supervised visitation, every other weekend, Christmas vacation, spring break, and half of summer. Due to her alcoholism, she hasn't worked for 5+ years, is broke and lives over 3 hours away (thank you HP), so basically only sees LMC (Little Miss Coyote) summer, Christmas, and sp. break. Not my problem.
My problem........she calls often, probably 3-4 times a week and leaves messages for LMC/me to call her. I don't want/like to talk to her, she is often toxic.
Basically, LMC is pi$$ed at her and doesn't want to talk. The therapist told me years ago not to MAKE her talk, and I agree, so I don't.
Here's my dilemma, I feel like I "SHOULD" call her every so often, maybe weekly or so, to at least give her a quick update on LMC's life, etc.. I feel "GUILTY" for not doing this often enough.
Calling the mom doesn't always cause me any great discomfort, unless she starts the quacking which is about 50/50, then I just say goodbye. And often times, LMC will get excited about something I'm telling mom about and take the phone and have a convo w/mom. So I guess it's a good thing.
IDK, I appreciate some other's perspectives.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 14,246
Well I don't have any ESH about custody agreements or co-parenting but I do have plenty when it comes to feeling conflicted about what I should or should not do and then feeling that guilt.
For me it's the darned if I do and darned if I don't (cognitive dissonance?) and once I got the notion that perhaps beating myself up over it was part of my codependency.....I began to respect my feelings more. The down side to that is if I were to take that idea too far and rely on mere emotion.
What works for me is to work at identifying what I really want...what is true....what is workable. Of course I have to weed out any negative attitudes that maybe I'm not quite aware of; because if that's hiding beneath my radar I might allow it more power over me than is healthy.
That's my 2cents/ESH; I hope it helps.
For me it's the darned if I do and darned if I don't (cognitive dissonance?) and once I got the notion that perhaps beating myself up over it was part of my codependency.....I began to respect my feelings more. The down side to that is if I were to take that idea too far and rely on mere emotion.
What works for me is to work at identifying what I really want...what is true....what is workable. Of course I have to weed out any negative attitudes that maybe I'm not quite aware of; because if that's hiding beneath my radar I might allow it more power over me than is healthy.
That's my 2cents/ESH; I hope it helps.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
How about another type of more indirect "touch-point?"
It's fair for the mother of the child to have touch-points when she makes an effort to be in touch, but this doesn't have to be in any particular format.
Perhaps helping LMC write a weekly digest in an email to mom would be a solution. This is not live, person-to-person contact such as is a phone call but is one step removed, so it greatly reduces the cross-transference of stress and toxicity. It does still provide a touch-point, between mother and daughter, in a more controlled manner. You do not even have to read responses, just send out weekly digests as a joint composition between you and LMC (the point of joint being LMC may not quite be up to the task of composing a digest, yet.)
It's ok to protect your and LMC's equanimity. But it doesn't have to be at the expense of all contact.
JMHO
CLMI
It's fair for the mother of the child to have touch-points when she makes an effort to be in touch, but this doesn't have to be in any particular format.
Perhaps helping LMC write a weekly digest in an email to mom would be a solution. This is not live, person-to-person contact such as is a phone call but is one step removed, so it greatly reduces the cross-transference of stress and toxicity. It does still provide a touch-point, between mother and daughter, in a more controlled manner. You do not even have to read responses, just send out weekly digests as a joint composition between you and LMC (the point of joint being LMC may not quite be up to the task of composing a digest, yet.)
It's ok to protect your and LMC's equanimity. But it doesn't have to be at the expense of all contact.
JMHO
CLMI
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
I don't believe any of us can take responsibility for other people. It's really a lesson that I'm living through right now, more so than any other time since finding Al Anon. If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
My sponsor has told me on several occasions that I cannot direct my spouse's relationship with his daughter. And yet my eyes were recently opened when I caught myself doing it and realized it. I cannot take on guilt on his behalf if he is lacking in the parent department and the really the only way he will build himself up in the parent department is if I lay off - then he's really on his own to face her (and even at 3, she called him on his not going to the fair with us last weekend (because he was hungover)). I can't create nor facilitate their relationship but I can be there for her when and if he isn't or if she gets hurt by him and I can be the best parent I can be to her. I feel that is far healthier than trying to fill a role that I can't possibly fulfill on many levels.
Also, my brother went through a toxic relationship/ divorce with a mentally unstable (and untreated to this day) woman. Kids are now 19 and 17, but already at 9 they were aware that mom was 'sick' and could slowly start making up their own minds. My brother respected when the kids did not want to see her or have contact. And there were lots of times that they were disappointed with how she behaved or when she didn't show, and my brother was there to support them when they were upset and tried to help them learn ways to cope with their mom.
My sponsor has told me on several occasions that I cannot direct my spouse's relationship with his daughter. And yet my eyes were recently opened when I caught myself doing it and realized it. I cannot take on guilt on his behalf if he is lacking in the parent department and the really the only way he will build himself up in the parent department is if I lay off - then he's really on his own to face her (and even at 3, she called him on his not going to the fair with us last weekend (because he was hungover)). I can't create nor facilitate their relationship but I can be there for her when and if he isn't or if she gets hurt by him and I can be the best parent I can be to her. I feel that is far healthier than trying to fill a role that I can't possibly fulfill on many levels.
Also, my brother went through a toxic relationship/ divorce with a mentally unstable (and untreated to this day) woman. Kids are now 19 and 17, but already at 9 they were aware that mom was 'sick' and could slowly start making up their own minds. My brother respected when the kids did not want to see her or have contact. And there were lots of times that they were disappointed with how she behaved or when she didn't show, and my brother was there to support them when they were upset and tried to help them learn ways to cope with their mom.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
My kids are grown now, however I still have strong opinions when it comes to kids!
This scenario reminds me of when I dated (off and on for 5 years) an alcholic and abusive (a mental and verbal horror) man. alot of similarites!
I did alot of things with his kids and still consider his daughter near to one of my own.
I noticed that most of his calling the mom "regarding the kids" was self-serving and had ulterior motives. It was toxic. The kids didn't like it either.
I think at 9 years old I would put the mom's phone number by the phone or on the frig and leave it to LMC when she wants to phone.
and ignore the messages unless it is something that truly matters.
I am all for the less stress and drama the better.
This scenario reminds me of when I dated (off and on for 5 years) an alcholic and abusive (a mental and verbal horror) man. alot of similarites!
I did alot of things with his kids and still consider his daughter near to one of my own.
I noticed that most of his calling the mom "regarding the kids" was self-serving and had ulterior motives. It was toxic. The kids didn't like it either.
I think at 9 years old I would put the mom's phone number by the phone or on the frig and leave it to LMC when she wants to phone.
and ignore the messages unless it is something that truly matters.
I am all for the less stress and drama the better.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
I also favor the idea of e-mail contact. Like a newsletter from LMC. Highlight the weeks events, include attachments of pictures, artwork or school grades.
However, I caution you against setting up a rigid schedule of news reports. Some weeks there isn't anything to report, or a hectic schedule may prevent getting online.
In my home, my son and oldest daughter always received a Sunday evening call from dad. It was a weekly event. As they became teenagers, sometimes they did not have anything they wanted to share. Some weekends one child would be very chatty and the other not so chatty. It varied. Now they seldom speak on the phone. They text, email and facebook.
From my end, I always try to share any health concerns, financial obligations and accomplishments.
However, I caution you against setting up a rigid schedule of news reports. Some weeks there isn't anything to report, or a hectic schedule may prevent getting online.
In my home, my son and oldest daughter always received a Sunday evening call from dad. It was a weekly event. As they became teenagers, sometimes they did not have anything they wanted to share. Some weekends one child would be very chatty and the other not so chatty. It varied. Now they seldom speak on the phone. They text, email and facebook.
From my end, I always try to share any health concerns, financial obligations and accomplishments.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alexandria Township, NJ
Posts: 275
Hi Coyote
BYW you are awesome - I love your post - always make me smile.
Anyway - my Ex - father of my three kids is NOT an addict. Mind you an A**hole yes. That's the Ex talking - I know there are people who think he's great - Whateverrrr!
you are only required to raise your child to the best of your ability. The same goes for the other parent. Despite the alcohol situation.
I have been divorce for 6 years and at the beginning I did it all, kept him updated on school events, games concerts and made copies of reports cards and told the kids "call your father it's father's day" everything...
And he got away with doing the absolute minimum. Both financially, emotionally. and time wise.
I got so sick of it - I divorced him to get him out of my life and here i was still taking care of HIS relationship with his kids. Keeping it fixed - for the kids sake. It was a wasted of energy and caused me so much frustration. Every time he would disappoint them, I was emotionally effected. And I can't keep my mouth shut so inevitably it would a fight. round and round we go
But the truth is they didn't need him for anything more than he could offer them. At 10, 7 and 8 years they figured out who their father really was and what they could expect from him. They were sad when they realized he couldn't be counted to come to games regularly or even give them a birthday gift and lots of other dreadful things.
It's great now a couple of years later, they don't have the broken hearts that comes from expecting something they'll never receive.
They get everything they need right here at HOME.
hugs to you - Awesome Dad!!
BYW you are awesome - I love your post - always make me smile.
Anyway - my Ex - father of my three kids is NOT an addict. Mind you an A**hole yes. That's the Ex talking - I know there are people who think he's great - Whateverrrr!
you are only required to raise your child to the best of your ability. The same goes for the other parent. Despite the alcohol situation.
I have been divorce for 6 years and at the beginning I did it all, kept him updated on school events, games concerts and made copies of reports cards and told the kids "call your father it's father's day" everything...
And he got away with doing the absolute minimum. Both financially, emotionally. and time wise.
I got so sick of it - I divorced him to get him out of my life and here i was still taking care of HIS relationship with his kids. Keeping it fixed - for the kids sake. It was a wasted of energy and caused me so much frustration. Every time he would disappoint them, I was emotionally effected. And I can't keep my mouth shut so inevitably it would a fight. round and round we go
But the truth is they didn't need him for anything more than he could offer them. At 10, 7 and 8 years they figured out who their father really was and what they could expect from him. They were sad when they realized he couldn't be counted to come to games regularly or even give them a birthday gift and lots of other dreadful things.
It's great now a couple of years later, they don't have the broken hearts that comes from expecting something they'll never receive.
They get everything they need right here at HOME.
hugs to you - Awesome Dad!!
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Live 
LOL..the weekly email sounded like homework to me!
Exactly!In reality, my newsletter would get done bi-annually. However, this generation of children are computer savvy. I ask my children first, read directions second.
In my home, I appreciated the weekly call. It kept it simple. If he didn't call, I let him explain.
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
LMCs mother owns the responsibility for the state of her relationship with her daughter. If she really cared to get updates she could get them straight from LMC herself in the form of a healthy relationship with her daughter. She knows what she has to do and it's not on you.
Awakening
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Silkspin said:
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Awakening
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by Jazzman
LMCs mother owns the responsibility for the state of her relationship with her daughter. If she really cared to get updates she could get them straight from LMC herself in the form of a healthy relationship with her daughter. She knows what she has to do and it's not on you.
Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about. Thanks for pointing out the obvious Jazzman. I appreciate it.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by coyote21
Silkspin said:
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Sounds to me like you and LMC already know what works for you right now.
If you feel like you really have to update Mom, maybe weekly is a little too much.
I have a really good relationship with my ex husband, and even now giving him weekly updates on the kids would be difficult, I mean what do you say? They're good kids but they don't win awards every week, and even he isn't really interested in every little burp! (they're a little older so their burps are probably bigger than LMC's!)
If I was having your dilemma, I'd perhaps try a monthly update/info session, see how it went and if anything improved from it.
If I or the kids started getting unwanted interference from it, I'd stop right there.
If it improved things for the kids and didn't affect me much, I'd carry on doing it.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
My problem........she calls often, probably 3-4 times a week and leaves messages for LMC/me to call her. I don't want/like to talk to her, she is often toxic.
Basically, LMC is pi$$ed at her and doesn't want to talk. The therapist told me years ago not to MAKE her talk, and I agree, so I don't.
If you find in your evaluation that you believe in your heart that it is unhealthy for a 9 year old girl to be pi$$ed at her mom, to the degree you witness LMC's anger, then IMO your responsibility as a parent is simply to talk to LMC maturely, without bashing the mom, and try to put whatever she is pi$$ed about into proper perspective for her. I would suggest discussing whatever she is pi$$ed about within the context of the serenity prayer.
Here's my dilemma, I feel like I "SHOULD" call her every so often, maybe weekly or so, to at least give her a quick update on LMC's life, etc.. I feel "GUILTY" for not doing this often enough.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by Jazzman
LMCs mother owns the responsibility for the state of her relationship with her daughter. If she really cared to get updates she could get them straight from LMC herself in the form of a healthy relationship with her daughter. She knows what she has to do and it's not on you.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In my little piece of heaven
Posts: 2,870
Coyote,
You're such a great dad, LMC is so very lucky to have one healthy parent who can teach her about consistency, boundaries, acceptable behavior etc.
I have found that email is a great way to communicate with an ex. I used to have to run them past a recovery friend first - she'd usually recommend that I take most of the adjectives out and stick to just the facts...
(she was right, of course) LMC might enjoy the process and I imagine her emails/newsletters might be pretty precious to you later - I loved that my kids had a different perspective on what was important and worth sharing...
You're such a great dad, LMC is so very lucky to have one healthy parent who can teach her about consistency, boundaries, acceptable behavior etc.
I have found that email is a great way to communicate with an ex. I used to have to run them past a recovery friend first - she'd usually recommend that I take most of the adjectives out and stick to just the facts...
(she was right, of course) LMC might enjoy the process and I imagine her emails/newsletters might be pretty precious to you later - I loved that my kids had a different perspective on what was important and worth sharing...
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by coyote21
Silkspin said:
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
If mom wanted to know, she would call. Should she call? Sure. Will she? Who knows, might depend on the day. You of course are concerned for your daughter (mine is only 3) but to allow that concern to turn into a 'should' for you infringes upon your peace.
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alexandria Township, NJ
Posts: 275
Mom does call, 3 or 4 times a week, MY problem is LMC doesn't want to talk, and neither do I
it's unfortunate some parents think that's their child's love is unconditional - parents have to earn that love and respect just like everyone else.
If Little Miss doesn't want to talk - she has her reasons and they should be respected.
You said the ex is TOXIC - Is she still drinking? If so - does talking to each other benefit Little Miss in anyway. Is her mother enriching life? If not then what is the point - to please the ex and damage the child.
IMO
Awakening
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by ChrrisT
A child not to wanting to speak to her mother, that's serious and one of the saddest things in world.
it's unfortunate some parents think that's their child's love is unconditional - parents have to earn that love and respect just like everyone else.
If Little Miss doesn't want to talk - she has her reasons and they should be respected.
You said the ex is TOXIC - Is she still drinking? If so - does talking to each other benefit Little Miss in anyway. Is her mother enriching life? If not then what is the point - to please the ex and damage the child.
IMO
it's unfortunate some parents think that's their child's love is unconditional - parents have to earn that love and respect just like everyone else.
If Little Miss doesn't want to talk - she has her reasons and they should be respected.
You said the ex is TOXIC - Is she still drinking? If so - does talking to each other benefit Little Miss in anyway. Is her mother enriching life? If not then what is the point - to please the ex and damage the child.
IMO
LMC is no different, even though she has spent most of the last 4 years "mad" at her mom I can still see the hurt caused from that love. And yes, it is very sad.
And yes, the mom is still busy drinking herself to death. When LMC returned home a few weeks ago, she was on the couch expressing some anger about something that her mom had done.
I replied that it was because of her drinking. LMC quickly added that, no, mom only drinks non-alcoholic beer now. She told me the name brand and I explained that that was NOT non-alcoholic.
For about a year the mom has been lying to LMC about her drinking, and I'd been reluctant to tell her the truth. Right or wrong, I decided this was a good time.
BTW, this was NOT a decision I made lightly/spur of the moment, and was not motivated out of a desire to make the mom look bad, she doesn't need my help. It was motivated out of wanting my kid to be given the truth. I've been wrestling with this knowledge for nearly a year.
I believe little kids deserve the truth, and that the CRAZY MAKING comes from seeing something with your own eyes and then being told something different happened.
The surprise registered on LMC's face, and she responded by saying that that explained mom's often weird behavior which was explained away as being tired etc..
The truth made LMC mad, but I could tell she was relieved on some level to have the REALITY she'd been living justified. IDK, I try to do what I believe is best for LMC, not for mom.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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