They are so good at manipulating!!
Only stepping forward
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Alabama, USA
Posts: 330
They are so good at manipulating!!
I can't tell the difference between truth and manipulation.
Realized I don't have to have a ringer for specific phone numbers the other day. Set it not to ring for xabf's home number, his sis's numbers and the unknown one he called me from the other day. He can call all he wants, I never hear it ring. I can stop alerts from the numbers too, so it doesn't even flash on my phone that I've missed a call. Best I can do right now since I can't actually block the number(s) on my cell.
So he left a voice mail when he called last night. Was crying his eyes out. He has no life without me, it's not worth living without me. If he can't wake up next to me or wake up knowing he'll get to talk to me that day, then he doesn't want to wake up. He can be the person I want him to be, he realizes he wants to be that person to. He just needs help, I need to be his teacher and show him the right way to live. I am his strength and if I'm not there then he has no strength to live. No desire to keep going.
I am such an emotional wreck right now actually hearing it come out of his mouth probably would have been too much and I would have fallen for it. I'm so much stronger in the morning; probably because at night I'm so tired from working all day I'll fall for anything just to be able to relax.
I'm thankful today for no ringers and don't show missed alerts. LOL
Curious.....would you ever call an AA member and ask him/her to make a house visit to someone? I can't tell if xabf is sincere in his words, not that it would matter in terms of a relationship between us if he was. But last time we went NC, he was persistent for two weeks until I finally gave in to him. What a weakling I was (am).
But I thought about calling an AA member, asking them to go to his house and talk to him. I figure he'll either accept the member's advice and/or get off my back. Leave me alone. Find whatever strength he's looking for. I just know I can't help him, I don't WANT to help him.
Somewhat screams CODIE. I feel selfish for even thinking it. I want him to be happy, just be happy without me. I just want him to leave me alone. And AA will either get him help, he can learn to be happy and realize what Al-Anon has taught me (we don't work together) or he'll get angry about it and leave me alone because of the anger.
Am I thinking too hard"
Realized I don't have to have a ringer for specific phone numbers the other day. Set it not to ring for xabf's home number, his sis's numbers and the unknown one he called me from the other day. He can call all he wants, I never hear it ring. I can stop alerts from the numbers too, so it doesn't even flash on my phone that I've missed a call. Best I can do right now since I can't actually block the number(s) on my cell.
So he left a voice mail when he called last night. Was crying his eyes out. He has no life without me, it's not worth living without me. If he can't wake up next to me or wake up knowing he'll get to talk to me that day, then he doesn't want to wake up. He can be the person I want him to be, he realizes he wants to be that person to. He just needs help, I need to be his teacher and show him the right way to live. I am his strength and if I'm not there then he has no strength to live. No desire to keep going.
I am such an emotional wreck right now actually hearing it come out of his mouth probably would have been too much and I would have fallen for it. I'm so much stronger in the morning; probably because at night I'm so tired from working all day I'll fall for anything just to be able to relax.
I'm thankful today for no ringers and don't show missed alerts. LOL
Curious.....would you ever call an AA member and ask him/her to make a house visit to someone? I can't tell if xabf is sincere in his words, not that it would matter in terms of a relationship between us if he was. But last time we went NC, he was persistent for two weeks until I finally gave in to him. What a weakling I was (am).
But I thought about calling an AA member, asking them to go to his house and talk to him. I figure he'll either accept the member's advice and/or get off my back. Leave me alone. Find whatever strength he's looking for. I just know I can't help him, I don't WANT to help him.
Somewhat screams CODIE. I feel selfish for even thinking it. I want him to be happy, just be happy without me. I just want him to leave me alone. And AA will either get him help, he can learn to be happy and realize what Al-Anon has taught me (we don't work together) or he'll get angry about it and leave me alone because of the anger.
Am I thinking too hard"
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: norwich, uk
Posts: 80
Yes you are.
He's the only one that can help him, you can only help you.
My stbxh was not an alcoholic while I was with him, but I had all the crap that is typical of an alcoholic. He rang me more than I rang him. Tried to control mine and my kids lives. Tried to stay overnight, fortunately I had a single bed for me so he couldn't stay there and I had a 2 seater sofa which was not comfy to sleep on either.
I finally told him that we were never going to work. I had taken the first step in leaving him, but hadn't given him the boot. In such a way that he got the message loud and clear.
I haven't heard from him for something like 15 weeks now. Not even on the phone.
I think you will just have to continue to ignore him until he gives up.
He's the only one that can help him, you can only help you.
My stbxh was not an alcoholic while I was with him, but I had all the crap that is typical of an alcoholic. He rang me more than I rang him. Tried to control mine and my kids lives. Tried to stay overnight, fortunately I had a single bed for me so he couldn't stay there and I had a 2 seater sofa which was not comfy to sleep on either.
I finally told him that we were never going to work. I had taken the first step in leaving him, but hadn't given him the boot. In such a way that he got the message loud and clear.
I haven't heard from him for something like 15 weeks now. Not even on the phone.
I think you will just have to continue to ignore him until he gives up.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
Was at a speaker meeting a year ago and a women did this with her husband. She was not an Al Anon member, but she called some people she knew from AA and they came to get her H. She told her H "you better go, it's below zero tonight and you're not coming back into this house unless you're sober"
He left with the AA person, went to a meeting, slept away from a week and came home with the promise to be clean.
He was 52 and a drunk most of his life.
That was 10 yrs ago and he's not had a drink since that night
It sometimes works. There is no RULES on what works and what doesn't
Some people recovery from addictions or codieness without groups.
Do what you feel you need to do in your heart
He left with the AA person, went to a meeting, slept away from a week and came home with the promise to be clean.
He was 52 and a drunk most of his life.
That was 10 yrs ago and he's not had a drink since that night
It sometimes works. There is no RULES on what works and what doesn't
Some people recovery from addictions or codieness without groups.
Do what you feel you need to do in your heart
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
and yes, they are great at manipulating, then denying they are, then doing it again.
But they need to have a good partner "in crime" to accept their maniuplations and I fall for it more than I would like to admit.
It's about regaining your power back as well
But they need to have a good partner "in crime" to accept their maniuplations and I fall for it more than I would like to admit.
It's about regaining your power back as well
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Unless, it's a family member, a friend or someone in the program, I wouldn't go to someone's house unless, they them selves called.
You know, there are laws preventin gsomeone from calling you on the phone. Ask him nicely to stop calling you.
You know, there are laws preventin gsomeone from calling you on the phone. Ask him nicely to stop calling you.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
I've said it before, the manipulating and the lying is utterly infuriating. I recall I found the line between fact and fiction became increasingly fuzzy.
Put up with it long enough and you will enter another realm. It's a game only played in the 'arena of the unwell'. Still to this day when I have contact with my ex, it is like entering an alternate reality, and after only a short while, the anxiety returns and I have to pull back so that I can rejoin the real world.
Once they see that you will no longer play the game, you will find yourself kicked to the curb - any relationship, dealings or engagement must be on their terms, and within the frame of their own personal reality. They will see you are no longer a willing participant and you will increasingly come under attack, they will ramp it up in order to get you to fall in line again, and when this does not work, you are history. They cannot manipulate you anymore so you become expendable. This is the way for all active addicts.
I am starting to believe that lying and manipulating is THE hallmark of an addict/alcoholic. If you're wondering whether they are or not, look no further than their penchant for such behaviour and you will have your answer.
I know plenty of people who drink, but they most certainly do not exhibit this particular behaviour.
Put up with it long enough and you will enter another realm. It's a game only played in the 'arena of the unwell'. Still to this day when I have contact with my ex, it is like entering an alternate reality, and after only a short while, the anxiety returns and I have to pull back so that I can rejoin the real world.
Once they see that you will no longer play the game, you will find yourself kicked to the curb - any relationship, dealings or engagement must be on their terms, and within the frame of their own personal reality. They will see you are no longer a willing participant and you will increasingly come under attack, they will ramp it up in order to get you to fall in line again, and when this does not work, you are history. They cannot manipulate you anymore so you become expendable. This is the way for all active addicts.
I am starting to believe that lying and manipulating is THE hallmark of an addict/alcoholic. If you're wondering whether they are or not, look no further than their penchant for such behaviour and you will have your answer.
I know plenty of people who drink, but they most certainly do not exhibit this particular behaviour.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Don't listen to his voicemails anymore kv816. I know, it's difficult, because it's like Anvil said to me once: It's like a train wreck, you have to fight the urge to look. Good job screening his calls that way and having got the emotional distance you have!!! Don't fall for his sob story because it IS him trying to hook you back into his life. If he really wants to get clean, he needs to do it on his own, no hand-holding, nothing. Take care.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
They want you to hold their hand and they seek it under the guise of wanting your help, but the real reason is so you can go back the them and continue to feed the addiction, give them your power, and sustain their life force with your energy.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
Originally Posted by Duped 
Put up with it long enough and you will enter another realm. It's a game only played in the 'arena of the unwell'. Still to this day when I have contact with my ex, it is like entering an alternate reality, and after only a short while, the anxiety returns and I have to pull back so that I can rejoin the real world.
.
.
By the way, I think this stems from their deep hurt as well. But madness none the less.
There is a book written on addictions and people who are abusive and the writer talks about alternate realities. People who abuse others and themselves, are often locked into what she calls, reality 1 and this is the reality that lacks all common sense.
She goes on to say, most non addicts function in reality 2.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by Summerpeach
This is how I see it but never really could put it into words. Very well explained, thanks :-)
By the way, I think this stems from their deep hurt as well. But madness none the less.
There is a book written on addictions and people who are abusive and the writer talks about alternate realities. People who abuse others and themselves, are often locked into what she calls, reality 1 and this is the reality that lacks all common sense.
She goes on to say, most non addicts function in reality 2.
By the way, I think this stems from their deep hurt as well. But madness none the less.
There is a book written on addictions and people who are abusive and the writer talks about alternate realities. People who abuse others and themselves, are often locked into what she calls, reality 1 and this is the reality that lacks all common sense.
She goes on to say, most non addicts function in reality 2.
Ever notice the serious disconnect an alcoholic has from what has actually happened? There has to be that cognizant disconnect for the addiction to survive once it has manifested itself.
My ex used to hurl things at me when we were in a disagreement. One time it was a bottle of oil. She barely missed my head with it. I brought it up to her sometime after and she merely shrugged, "Well, you were getting in my face." I was getting in her face about the fact that she was drinking and taking valium.
How many levels of disconnect are there in my last paragraph? Several, I would say.
Namely,
- it's never okay to throw things at people or assault them (disconnect from common law and morality)
- there is no excuse for that kind of behaviour (disconnect from Boundaries and consequences)
- A total disconnect for someone you love as a living, breathing person who experiences pain and was merely looking out for your concern.
This is only the tip of the iceberg for them - indeed, their perception of right and wrong, good and bad becomes increasingly skewed: I.e. lost their job, it's okay, lost their house, it's okay, lost their relationship, it's okay, lost their children, it's okay.
And they never make the connection between these awful things happening to them and the booze. Or at least, they don't want to, because the reality of it is too painful to bare for them.
That's why they NEED disconnect.'
Which begs the question, how can someone like that ever truly love anyone? Anyone who thinks their alcoholic loves them is gravely, gravely mistaken.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wizard Land Downunder
Posts: 2,615
He just needs help, I need to be his teacher and show him the right way to live. I am his strength and if I'm not there then he has no strength to live. No desire to keep going.
My goodness, he doesn't need a human like you......he needs God, because no-one is this powerful. Actually, Christ tried to teach and show people the right way to live, and hmmm, even he couldn't succeed.
Like Anvil's idea, of sending him and AA schedule, along with note...telling, not asking, him to STOP contacting you, and work his own recovery.
God bless
My goodness, he doesn't need a human like you......he needs God, because no-one is this powerful. Actually, Christ tried to teach and show people the right way to live, and hmmm, even he couldn't succeed.
Like Anvil's idea, of sending him and AA schedule, along with note...telling, not asking, him to STOP contacting you, and work his own recovery.
God bless
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,292
Originally Posted by Duped
Indeed, it's much like a normal person being in a relationship with someone who has borderline personality disorder.
Ever notice the serious disconnect an alcoholic has from what has actually happened? There has to be that cognizant disconnect for the addiction to survive once it has manifested itself.
My ex used to hurl things at me when we were in a disagreement. One time it was a bottle of oil. She barely missed my head with it. I brought it up to her sometime after and she merely shrugged, "Well, you were getting in my face." I was getting in her face about the fact that she was drinking and taking valium.
How many levels of disconnect are there in my last paragraph? Several, I would say.
Namely,
- it's never okay to throw things at people or assault them (disconnect from common law and morality)
- there is no excuse for that kind of behaviour (disconnect from Boundaries and consequences)
- A total disconnect for someone you love as a living, breathing person who experiences pain and was merely looking out for your concern.
This is only the tip of the iceberg for them - indeed, their perception of right and wrong, good and bad becomes increasingly skewed: I.e. lost their job, it's okay, lost their house, it's okay, lost their relationship, it's okay, lost their children, it's okay.
And they never make the connection between these awful things happening to them and the booze. Or at least, they don't want to, because the reality of it is too painful to bare for them.
That's why they NEED disconnect.'
Which begs the question, how can someone like that ever truly love anyone? Anyone who thinks their alcoholic loves them is gravely, gravely mistaken.
Ever notice the serious disconnect an alcoholic has from what has actually happened? There has to be that cognizant disconnect for the addiction to survive once it has manifested itself.
My ex used to hurl things at me when we were in a disagreement. One time it was a bottle of oil. She barely missed my head with it. I brought it up to her sometime after and she merely shrugged, "Well, you were getting in my face." I was getting in her face about the fact that she was drinking and taking valium.
How many levels of disconnect are there in my last paragraph? Several, I would say.
Namely,
- it's never okay to throw things at people or assault them (disconnect from common law and morality)
- there is no excuse for that kind of behaviour (disconnect from Boundaries and consequences)
- A total disconnect for someone you love as a living, breathing person who experiences pain and was merely looking out for your concern.
This is only the tip of the iceberg for them - indeed, their perception of right and wrong, good and bad becomes increasingly skewed: I.e. lost their job, it's okay, lost their house, it's okay, lost their relationship, it's okay, lost their children, it's okay.
And they never make the connection between these awful things happening to them and the booze. Or at least, they don't want to, because the reality of it is too painful to bare for them.
That's why they NEED disconnect.'
Which begs the question, how can someone like that ever truly love anyone? Anyone who thinks their alcoholic loves them is gravely, gravely mistaken.
My ABF doesn't behave the way your ex did, but he's never wrong, he denies saying things he just said and he seriously believe that things that are unhealthy are healthy.
He can twist words and yell over me until he wins. He's all about the "winning"
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
AA members doing house calls? I've heard of it happening; go for it if you have a mutu friend in the program you trust and think your x will relate to him/her. I think you called the "no life without you" crap correctly as manipulation. He really may feel that way, but needs to get over it. Figure out a way to detach and not enable. Best of luck you can do it... A lot of great threads here that can help. Suggestion; maybe find someone who has been where you are and has gotten to where you want to be?
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
And yes life would be easier if they just said
I'm in for the sex
I'm in for the beers you'll have with me
I'm in for the money
I'm in for the warm body next to me because I am not strong enough to sleep alone
At least it would be honest.
I'm in for the sex
I'm in for the beers you'll have with me
I'm in for the money
I'm in for the warm body next to me because I am not strong enough to sleep alone
At least it would be honest.
Only stepping forward
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Alabama, USA
Posts: 330
Hmmm.....I think I like the schedule. I have a small box of his things that are here (just some clothes and jewelry). Was going to mail them....surprised me at that thought. Normally I'd consider just dropping them off at his house. Once I did it I just left it all on his porch. I could care less about taking that time and energy to drive all the way out there. Figured I'd just mail them, think I'll include the AA schedule in the box. I'm not going to write a letter. I've said everything I need to say. I'm not wasting anymore time repeating everything I've already said to him. No thank you.
Where would I get a schedule?
Where would I get a schedule?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by Summerpeach
My ABF doesn't behave the way your ex did, but he's never wrong, he denies saying things he just said and he seriously believe that things that are unhealthy are healthy.
He can twist words and yell over me until he wins. He's all about the "winning"
He can twist words and yell over me until he wins. He's all about the "winning"
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
"not to argue TC, but wouldn't that have to go both ways then? wouldn't WE also have to fess up to our own hidden agendas? "
My line of thinking mirrors that to a large extent... Any relationship with any addict involves the unhealthy fufilment of twisted needs (by both parties) unless healthy boundaries are in place. Normal relatively sane people can in essense become brainwashed by the addict as well. Also the Codie element also comes into play.. That's why many people tend to bounce from one failed/unhealthy relationship to another IMHO. Take time and a little rewiring, but you can rewire yourself into something better (on both sides of the equation).
My line of thinking mirrors that to a large extent... Any relationship with any addict involves the unhealthy fufilment of twisted needs (by both parties) unless healthy boundaries are in place. Normal relatively sane people can in essense become brainwashed by the addict as well. Also the Codie element also comes into play.. That's why many people tend to bounce from one failed/unhealthy relationship to another IMHO. Take time and a little rewiring, but you can rewire yourself into something better (on both sides of the equation).
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
My ABF doesn't behave the way your ex did, but he's never wrong, he denies saying things he just said and he seriously believe that things that are unhealthy are healthy.
He can twist words and yell over me until he wins. He's all about the "winning"
So true... "for what does it profit a man to gain the world, but loose his soul?"
I've come to realize that for me winning is important and a good thing, but it's not if you win, but how and why. Mutually agreed upon rules, an honest protocol if you will makes life so much more effective and meaningful. Just my 2 Cs...
He can twist words and yell over me until he wins. He's all about the "winning"
So true... "for what does it profit a man to gain the world, but loose his soul?"
I've come to realize that for me winning is important and a good thing, but it's not if you win, but how and why. Mutually agreed upon rules, an honest protocol if you will makes life so much more effective and meaningful. Just my 2 Cs...
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