Is the Need to Help Healthy?
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Is the Need to Help Healthy?
I've realized this year that I don't have healthy boundaries; that I have to identify where I don't; and practice setting, communicating, and maintaining boundaries in all areas of my life. I also have this almost super-human-it-seems sense of compassion and empathy for others. I have plenty of practical knowledge and resources to offer, and my life is stable and secure enough that I feel I have the ability to personally help others who are, as they say, less "fortunate" than me.
What I'm struggling with right now is somewhat related to a question IPT brought up a week or so ago.
I have been looking back on the last couple of years of my life and listed out the multiple occasions during this time period where I tried to "help" someone. Whether family, siblings, children, addicted persons, old friends, etc. And I realize that 99% of the "helps" blew up in my face and may have even caused harm to the person I tried to help.
It's very clear at this point that when I help people to my own detriment, or when I help people and ignore my own needs, that it is UNHEALTHY. So, I've got a good handle on making sure I am neither neglecting or harming myself and practicing setting boundaries to prevent those things. I also think that I am now able to discern before taking steps to "help," whether or not whatever I want to do to "help" might be injurious to ME or the other person.
But is there really ANY circumstance where wanting and trying to help others IS healthy? Or is ALL helping really an unhealthy attempt to control our universe?
Do people help others solely out of healthy thoughts and feelings or do they help others out of things like guilt or other unhealthfulness?
What motivates so many of us to help others time and again, to the detriment of ourselves and those we love and so desperately want to help? Such as enabling. Because we enable out of love and caring but we harm the person by doing so. I understand that, for our own health, we have to let go of the outcomes and become aware of how we are affecting ourselves and those around us.
But where does this need to help come from in the first place?
What I'm struggling with right now is somewhat related to a question IPT brought up a week or so ago.
I have been looking back on the last couple of years of my life and listed out the multiple occasions during this time period where I tried to "help" someone. Whether family, siblings, children, addicted persons, old friends, etc. And I realize that 99% of the "helps" blew up in my face and may have even caused harm to the person I tried to help.
It's very clear at this point that when I help people to my own detriment, or when I help people and ignore my own needs, that it is UNHEALTHY. So, I've got a good handle on making sure I am neither neglecting or harming myself and practicing setting boundaries to prevent those things. I also think that I am now able to discern before taking steps to "help," whether or not whatever I want to do to "help" might be injurious to ME or the other person.
But is there really ANY circumstance where wanting and trying to help others IS healthy? Or is ALL helping really an unhealthy attempt to control our universe?
Do people help others solely out of healthy thoughts and feelings or do they help others out of things like guilt or other unhealthfulness?
What motivates so many of us to help others time and again, to the detriment of ourselves and those we love and so desperately want to help? Such as enabling. Because we enable out of love and caring but we harm the person by doing so. I understand that, for our own health, we have to let go of the outcomes and become aware of how we are affecting ourselves and those around us.
But where does this need to help come from in the first place?
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself. My need to 'help' was really a need to be 'needed.' It goes back to my family of origin and my parents being unable to just show love unconditionally. It was always conditional. If I got good grades, accomplished something noteworthy, made them laugh, etc. I learned from them that I had to 'do something' in order to be loved. So, naturally, I grew up wanting to 'do something' for other people because then they would love me.
I don't think helping is a bad thing, it's the motivation behind it that makes it healthy or unhealthy. I also learned from a wise person, who is a social worker, that it's not healthy or productive to put more effort into helping someone that they are willing to put in to helping themselves.
L
I don't think helping is a bad thing, it's the motivation behind it that makes it healthy or unhealthy. I also learned from a wise person, who is a social worker, that it's not healthy or productive to put more effort into helping someone that they are willing to put in to helping themselves.
L
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Well, I wouldn't say I'm RID of it, but a year or so in therapy helped, lol. For me, it was all about self-worth, external validation, magical thinking, and all that other stuff that contributes to codependence.
L
L
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
But is there really ANY circumstance where wanting and trying to help others IS healthy? Or is ALL helping really an unhealthy attempt to control our universe?
When I see a little old lady whose grocery bags just ripped and now her stuff is rolling onto the sidewalk I figure that's an unloaded and OK situation to step in and help!!
I think there is something in our humanity that compels us to help others. I mean the opposite trait, someone who never lifts a finger for anyone but themselves is not desirable also right?
I've experienced many of the same realizations LTD mentioned - and also growing up in an alcoholic home and having to tolerate for so many f***ed up years a situation that I could see, smell, feel, was just so wrong, I think I developed an overly tweaked sensitivity to other people's problems (as I perceive them) and a desperate urge to make things right, make things OK, make the tension and the problem disappear...something I was unable to do as a child.
Through therapy and AlAnon I found that I never had nor will I have any power to change other people or even to make their problems go away....
Codependence, and its little sister "overwillingness to help" are two reasons I had to learn to stop and take stock and be very careful about what my personal motivations are in "helping" anyone - except little old ladies in the above scenario of course! Stepping in to help in many situations is a slippery slope for me - like taking that first drink for an alcoholic. But it's different in that it's not like I can never help people again - it's just that I have to be mindful.
peace-
b
When I see a little old lady whose grocery bags just ripped and now her stuff is rolling onto the sidewalk I figure that's an unloaded and OK situation to step in and help!!
I think there is something in our humanity that compels us to help others. I mean the opposite trait, someone who never lifts a finger for anyone but themselves is not desirable also right?
I've experienced many of the same realizations LTD mentioned - and also growing up in an alcoholic home and having to tolerate for so many f***ed up years a situation that I could see, smell, feel, was just so wrong, I think I developed an overly tweaked sensitivity to other people's problems (as I perceive them) and a desperate urge to make things right, make things OK, make the tension and the problem disappear...something I was unable to do as a child.
Through therapy and AlAnon I found that I never had nor will I have any power to change other people or even to make their problems go away....
Codependence, and its little sister "overwillingness to help" are two reasons I had to learn to stop and take stock and be very careful about what my personal motivations are in "helping" anyone - except little old ladies in the above scenario of course! Stepping in to help in many situations is a slippery slope for me - like taking that first drink for an alcoholic. But it's different in that it's not like I can never help people again - it's just that I have to be mindful.
peace-
b
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
All of the above being true..I would like to pick up with Bernadette's pointing to "mindfulness"
Cultivating mindfulness...which would be awareness, i.e., awareness first of self...our motives, our knowledge, our skills, and the truth that we human beings are social animals who benefit from cooperation and community, we can be of service, I think, to others. We also need a realistic awareness of the other and a respect for them. We must use our minds and mindfulness in how to apply service and or assistance in a way that is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL. If we believe, as I am coming to, that we are interdependent then our common welfare is of importance and a right concern for each of us. We can best serve ourselves and others when we carefully consider what talent we have and can offer that is constructive for ourselves and to others and the consequences of our course of action, the best we can discern it.
This does mean that we must know what is good for us and how we can give in a way that enriches ourselves, as well as enriches in an enpowering way, others...with respect and mutual freedom and autonomy...not power and control.
Cultivating mindfulness...which would be awareness, i.e., awareness first of self...our motives, our knowledge, our skills, and the truth that we human beings are social animals who benefit from cooperation and community, we can be of service, I think, to others. We also need a realistic awareness of the other and a respect for them. We must use our minds and mindfulness in how to apply service and or assistance in a way that is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL. If we believe, as I am coming to, that we are interdependent then our common welfare is of importance and a right concern for each of us. We can best serve ourselves and others when we carefully consider what talent we have and can offer that is constructive for ourselves and to others and the consequences of our course of action, the best we can discern it.
This does mean that we must know what is good for us and how we can give in a way that enriches ourselves, as well as enriches in an enpowering way, others...with respect and mutual freedom and autonomy...not power and control.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
For me, LaTeeDa nailed it
It's also looking at my motives, and am I attached to the outcome, if I am at ALL attached to "the outcome" it's unhealthy
There is a reason they say "virtue is it's own reward' because when it isn't, it's not virtue any more, it's "controlling"
It's also tied into my self esteem, as I do nice things for others but MAKE SURE I take "the credit", I MAKE SURE they know I am helping, because the truth is I am seeking outside validation.
So i have heard, if you want high self esteem, do esteemable acts, however, if I am invested in the outcome, the truth is they are not esteemable acts.
A few exercises that helped me with this:
One: Sponsoring others
These were the first relationships in my life that were truly healthy, it was so very very very good for me on so very very very many levels, one was, the "advice" I was giving was ALWAYS the advice I should be taking myself, we can see things quickly in others, only slowly in ourselves, sponsoring others gave me incredible insight into myself.
Also, I learned to "let go", I passed on verbatim what was passed on to me, some got it, some didn't, I found my love for them wasn't "conditional" that whether they got it or not, wasn't up to me, was incredibly good practice for my day to day 'real' relationships, such as family, friends, and romantic.
Second: and this one about broke my brain, do something nice for someone for thirty days, and tell NO ONE, not my sponsor, not my lover, NO ONE!!!!
That simple exercise changed who I was on a cellular level. It made me cry. I can't convey how huge that simple exercise was.
If I am giving "gifts with strings" ie "love" or 'help' and I am not absolutely clear about what my motives are, I am headed for a world of hurt.
I am sorry to bring this here, but this is the best description I have found for this sort of behavior, I call this "The Good Actor Blues" because since i think I have good motives, I am doing "what's right" when the truth of the matter all I am doing is manipulating the people around me
So ultimately working the steps, sponsoring others, doing esteemable acts (and not getting caught) thereby gaining my self esteem, and stopping seeking outside validation, and stop trying to control others, and stopping trying to seek outside validation by "helping others" which was never help in the first place, but actually just playing God, was what worked for me.
Took about six months of serious work.
Thing is, you hear in meetings, let us love you until you can love yourself, what frequently happens is by the time you love yourself you **** everyone else off, that's my experience anyway.
Thank you for sending me the PM and inviting me to look at your thread and respond to it.
I am very honored and I hope what I have written strikes a chord with you
BB 1st ed
Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself. My need to 'help' was really a need to be 'needed.' It goes back to my family of origin and my parents being unable to just show love unconditionally. It was always conditional. If I got good grades, accomplished something noteworthy, made them laugh, etc. I learned from them that I had to 'do something' in order to be loved. So, naturally, I grew up wanting to 'do something' for other people because then they would love me.
I don't think helping is a bad thing, it's the motivation behind it that makes it healthy or unhealthy. I also learned from a wise person, who is a social worker, that it's not healthy or productive to put more effort into helping someone that they are willing to put in to helping themselves.
I don't think helping is a bad thing, it's the motivation behind it that makes it healthy or unhealthy. I also learned from a wise person, who is a social worker, that it's not healthy or productive to put more effort into helping someone that they are willing to put in to helping themselves.
There is a reason they say "virtue is it's own reward' because when it isn't, it's not virtue any more, it's "controlling"
It's also tied into my self esteem, as I do nice things for others but MAKE SURE I take "the credit", I MAKE SURE they know I am helping, because the truth is I am seeking outside validation.
So i have heard, if you want high self esteem, do esteemable acts, however, if I am invested in the outcome, the truth is they are not esteemable acts.
A few exercises that helped me with this:
One: Sponsoring others
These were the first relationships in my life that were truly healthy, it was so very very very good for me on so very very very many levels, one was, the "advice" I was giving was ALWAYS the advice I should be taking myself, we can see things quickly in others, only slowly in ourselves, sponsoring others gave me incredible insight into myself.
Also, I learned to "let go", I passed on verbatim what was passed on to me, some got it, some didn't, I found my love for them wasn't "conditional" that whether they got it or not, wasn't up to me, was incredibly good practice for my day to day 'real' relationships, such as family, friends, and romantic.
Second: and this one about broke my brain, do something nice for someone for thirty days, and tell NO ONE, not my sponsor, not my lover, NO ONE!!!!
That simple exercise changed who I was on a cellular level. It made me cry. I can't convey how huge that simple exercise was.
If I am giving "gifts with strings" ie "love" or 'help' and I am not absolutely clear about what my motives are, I am headed for a world of hurt.
I am sorry to bring this here, but this is the best description I have found for this sort of behavior, I call this "The Good Actor Blues" because since i think I have good motives, I am doing "what's right" when the truth of the matter all I am doing is manipulating the people around me
Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.
What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?
What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?
Took about six months of serious work.
Thing is, you hear in meetings, let us love you until you can love yourself, what frequently happens is by the time you love yourself you **** everyone else off, that's my experience anyway.
Thank you for sending me the PM and inviting me to look at your thread and respond to it.
I am very honored and I hope what I have written strikes a chord with you
BB 1st ed
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thank you so much Ago for this. I so needed to hear these words. I have needed to hear these words for such a long time.....
And here you are,
you flew in as easily and gracefully as a butterfly
and brought me the beauty of your caring words.
...WOW, I could be a poet when I grow up!!!
Could you please elaborate a little, perhaps give a few examples, on the kinds of ways I could help others for 30 days without being found out? I work in a large office building, have minimal contact with family, and have only a handful of very busy friends.
(I do sometimes take my neighbor's garbage can up the driveway if I get home before he does).
And here you are, you flew in as easily and gracefully as a butterfly
and brought me the beauty of your caring words.
...WOW, I could be a poet when I grow up!!!
Could you please elaborate a little, perhaps give a few examples, on the kinds of ways I could help others for 30 days without being found out? I work in a large office building, have minimal contact with family, and have only a handful of very busy friends.
(I do sometimes take my neighbor's garbage can up the driveway if I get home before he does).
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Al-anon summarizes it very nicely for me:
Help is what I do for others who can _not_ do it for themselves.
Enabling is what I do for others who _can_ do it for themselves.
If I say it without being asked; it is meddling.
If I say it twice; it's manipulation.
Mike
Help is what I do for others who can _not_ do it for themselves.
Enabling is what I do for others who _can_ do it for themselves.
If I say it without being asked; it is meddling.
If I say it twice; it's manipulation.
Mike
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Could you please elaborate a little, perhaps give a few examples, on the kinds of ways I could help others for 30 days without being found out? I work in a large office building, have minimal contact with family, and have only a handful of very busy friends.
(I do sometimes take my neighbor's garbage can up the driveway if I get home before he does).
(I do sometimes take my neighbor's garbage can up the driveway if I get home before he does).
If I could do it without the recipient finding out, I do, but simply helping people who are lost, helping people with their groceries, random acts of kindness, picking up cigarette butts outside a meeting when everyone else has gone, just doing nice things and then not expecting a thank you nor telling anyone else about them. Doing it and then running away before the person has a chance to even thank you.
In this coffee shop I hang out in, it's across the street from a meeting hall, and I frequently have people ask me if I am sober without ever once seeing me in a meeting, I say yes, and sometimes ask, "How can you tell?"
They always say "because you talk to everyone, you are kind to everyone, you make an effort to reach out and smile at people, and help people with the door etc, and I don't know, I just don't see that kind of easy going helpfulness except from people that are sober. That and something in your eyes", which I don't see of course, all I see is are my character defects, shortcomings and money problems"
I get asked that fairly frequently, then have been asked to "speak" 3 times just recently at the meeting across the street for that.
Also can you attend more meetings? Immerse yourself, get some commitments and possibly get a sponsee?
That's when the rewards start piling on in my experience. and quite frankly my next plan of action for myself, speaking of giving advice I need to follow
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Thanks and thanks again Ago for this! I am now motivated to make a list tonight before I go to bed of possible things I can do to help or do nice things for others without being found out. My goal is to list 31 things this week.
I would like to go to meetings very much, thank you for asking. But here's the "But": I have immense pain and difficulty physically being around groups of people. I particularly cannot be around incessant talking or loud noise. I also have difficulty speaking because I often do not know or use the right words or tone of voice and other things that are not acceptable to others. I make people very angry and, horribly, am also extremely sensitive to other people's anger. Other people's expression of anger towards me produces extreme distress, that which I am unable to describe in words. If you saw my response to anger, you would probably think that I am very very very mentally ill. It is truly morbid.
So there you have it. My honesty about this very horrifying part of me that often makes me feel like what is the point of continuing? (I'm not suicidal..please don't misunderstand me...I am just expressing my feelings).
I would like to go to meetings very much, thank you for asking. But here's the "But": I have immense pain and difficulty physically being around groups of people. I particularly cannot be around incessant talking or loud noise. I also have difficulty speaking because I often do not know or use the right words or tone of voice and other things that are not acceptable to others. I make people very angry and, horribly, am also extremely sensitive to other people's anger. Other people's expression of anger towards me produces extreme distress, that which I am unable to describe in words. If you saw my response to anger, you would probably think that I am very very very mentally ill. It is truly morbid.
So there you have it. My honesty about this very horrifying part of me that often makes me feel like what is the point of continuing? (I'm not suicidal..please don't misunderstand me...I am just expressing my feelings).
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the barn
Posts: 324
L2L, you ask a very good question.
I think DesertEyes nailed it in this:
If we "help" someone who has not asked for it and does not need it, we are in reality "imposing" our will and our own vision of what life should be on someone else.
There are plenty of people out there who need help. Especially as we head in to the cold season and the holidays, if you are looking for ideas? Here are lots of them!
I think DesertEyes nailed it in this:
Help is what I do for others who can _not_ do it for themselves.
Enabling is what I do for others who _can_ do it for themselves.
An added part to that is, I think we should only help people who ask for our help, and then only when that help is truly needed. Or when the health and well-being of a child or an animal is involved and that child or animal is in danger.Enabling is what I do for others who _can_ do it for themselves.
If we "help" someone who has not asked for it and does not need it, we are in reality "imposing" our will and our own vision of what life should be on someone else.
There are plenty of people out there who need help. Especially as we head in to the cold season and the holidays, if you are looking for ideas? Here are lots of them!
- Donate a few extra bucks to your utility company's fund for people who can't afford to keep their electricity on.
- Bring towels and blankets and coats (or organize a coat drive) for your local homeless shelter.
- Donate some time at the food bank or food kitchen.
- Donate some clothes to the local women's shelter.
- Take some dog/cat food and blankets to the humane society.
- If you see your neighbor forgot to take their trash down on trash day, move their can down to the street for them.
- Put some seed out for the birds regularly over the winter (and don't stop, if you teach them you have food they will depend on you).
- Volunteer for the literacy project and help teach and ESL student to read.
- Volunteer to pull the bingo numbers at the nursing home on bingo night.
- Read the newspaper to blind nursing home patients.
- Pick up trash in your local park.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Something I forgot to mention, frequently when I am "nice" or "helpful" to "loved ones" what I find is on a subterranean level I have "conditions" attached to what I am calling "love" or "help".
I will do this for you, but I expect this in return, and I do this without realizing it, this is what people are talking about when they talk about having "expectations" in a relationship.
This is by far the most subtle, devious and dangerous of "controlling behaviors" because I quite literally don't know I am doing it, and then, when my expectations fail to be met, as they oh so frequently are, I then blame the other person for their faults.
Expectations will literally kill me, all they are is resentments waiting to happen, and if I don't even realize I have them, it's devastating to me when they rear their ugly head.
This is why for me, sponsoring others has been a godsend, it allows me to practice these skills in a much easier emotional setting before I practice them at "home" with my family or in relationships.
This is all tied in to "the good actor blues" from my previous post, I just forgot to write it there.
I will do this for you, but I expect this in return, and I do this without realizing it, this is what people are talking about when they talk about having "expectations" in a relationship.
This is by far the most subtle, devious and dangerous of "controlling behaviors" because I quite literally don't know I am doing it, and then, when my expectations fail to be met, as they oh so frequently are, I then blame the other person for their faults.
Expectations will literally kill me, all they are is resentments waiting to happen, and if I don't even realize I have them, it's devastating to me when they rear their ugly head.
This is why for me, sponsoring others has been a godsend, it allows me to practice these skills in a much easier emotional setting before I practice them at "home" with my family or in relationships.
This is all tied in to "the good actor blues" from my previous post, I just forgot to write it there.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Well, when I responded to this yesterday, I was busy working on something else. So, today I thought to myself that my response wasn't very helpful and I should come back and elaborate a little. As usually happens on SR, many people beat me to it!
The only thing I will add is that it's really important for me to examine my motivation when I feel the urge to 'help' someone. Am I doing it unconditionally? Or am I wanting something in return? This is much more difficult than it sounds due to the fact that I lie to myself all the time. I'm really good at convincing myself of my virtue and dismissing any ulterior motives. And I believe I spent the better part of my life just doing whatever came to me and seemed like a good idea, without any real honest examination of it.
So, for me, being aware of what is going on inside me, even on a subconscious level, is the key. Listening to the small quiet voice rather than the 'committee' in my head.
L
The only thing I will add is that it's really important for me to examine my motivation when I feel the urge to 'help' someone. Am I doing it unconditionally? Or am I wanting something in return? This is much more difficult than it sounds due to the fact that I lie to myself all the time. I'm really good at convincing myself of my virtue and dismissing any ulterior motives. And I believe I spent the better part of my life just doing whatever came to me and seemed like a good idea, without any real honest examination of it.
So, for me, being aware of what is going on inside me, even on a subconscious level, is the key. Listening to the small quiet voice rather than the 'committee' in my head.
L
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
I am pretty sure that I have never helped anyone without some degree of ulterior motive: looking good in their eyes as an absolute minimum. I am not sure if I am capable of it, there is a part of me that doubts if it a purely altruistic act is possible at all for anyone (But as I am trying not to apply my experience and shortcomings to others.......)
I have no idea what a truely selfless act would be, or how I would go about it, because even if no-one knows, I get a warm fuzzy feeling about what I've done, I feel better for doing it, sometimes I feel superior for doing something nice, which pretty much negates any good karma.
The getting something for myself (self-validation, warm fuzzy feelings) would seem to make it not altruistic, if I didn't feel any differently about myself afterwards then that would be altruistic, but I do, so?
Is there a difference between healthy acts and altruistic acts?
Does the former depend on having no expectaion of the outcome as far as external outcomes go and the second have the addition of having no internal outcomes (or no expectations of internal outcomes).
probably tying myself needlessly in knots here but I guess my goal would be to get to the point where I was so secure in myself, that doing good deeds had no impact on my self evaluation.
I have no idea what a truely selfless act would be, or how I would go about it, because even if no-one knows, I get a warm fuzzy feeling about what I've done, I feel better for doing it, sometimes I feel superior for doing something nice, which pretty much negates any good karma.
The getting something for myself (self-validation, warm fuzzy feelings) would seem to make it not altruistic, if I didn't feel any differently about myself afterwards then that would be altruistic, but I do, so?
Is there a difference between healthy acts and altruistic acts?
Does the former depend on having no expectaion of the outcome as far as external outcomes go and the second have the addition of having no internal outcomes (or no expectations of internal outcomes).
probably tying myself needlessly in knots here but I guess my goal would be to get to the point where I was so secure in myself, that doing good deeds had no impact on my self evaluation.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 6,278
FWIW, Jen, I don't think feeling good about yourself is such a bad thing. Of course, like anything, it can be taken to unhealthy extremes. But, for me at least, it's the difference between 'external' validation and 'internal' validation. The former is generally unhealthy for me, but the latter is not necessarily so. In fact, it can be a healthy part of building self-worth. If I do something nice for someone, with no expectation of something nice in return from them, and I feel good about myself for doing it, that's a good thing for me.
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
Posts: 407
I've followed this thread with interest-- I wrote a reply about giving watermelons away and expecting oranges back, and then I got munchy for some fruit, and closed the browser and wandered off for a snack.
I'm not a helper. We didn't do that in my family of origin. In fact I've realized that a lot of times lately I've had the opportunity to help and I just stood there doing nothing when I should have gotten involved... stopped the elevator at school for someone I saw just as the doors started to close, given a hand to that guy in the kitchen with an overloaded cart of dirty pots and pans, whatever. There is something to be said for genuine helpfulness, and I do think people are out there helping each other without further expectations, every day.
I don't think the impulse to help is in any way unhealthy. It makes us human, it's one of our better desires and we sure have a load of bad ones, so we should hold onto the good impulses. The need to control is unhealthy. Controlling and helping aren't really interchangeable at all. There have been several good definitions of both posted (thank you deserteyes and cowgirl, I have been accepting help in the form of money for tuition from my family and feeling guilty about it, but in truth, they are doing something for me that I can't do for myself).
As I delete unread "helpful" emails from my former husband's girlfriend, little friendly reminders about my daughter's homework and how she needs to go to the orthodontist, I grit my teeth and remind myself that at least the girlfriend thinks she's doing something good. She drove me nuts until I gave myself permission to not respond (thanks y'all) to not get involved. Now I stand back and think, ok, she cares, she means well. That's better than the opposite.
I'm not a helper. We didn't do that in my family of origin. In fact I've realized that a lot of times lately I've had the opportunity to help and I just stood there doing nothing when I should have gotten involved... stopped the elevator at school for someone I saw just as the doors started to close, given a hand to that guy in the kitchen with an overloaded cart of dirty pots and pans, whatever. There is something to be said for genuine helpfulness, and I do think people are out there helping each other without further expectations, every day.
I don't think the impulse to help is in any way unhealthy. It makes us human, it's one of our better desires and we sure have a load of bad ones, so we should hold onto the good impulses. The need to control is unhealthy. Controlling and helping aren't really interchangeable at all. There have been several good definitions of both posted (thank you deserteyes and cowgirl, I have been accepting help in the form of money for tuition from my family and feeling guilty about it, but in truth, they are doing something for me that I can't do for myself).
As I delete unread "helpful" emails from my former husband's girlfriend, little friendly reminders about my daughter's homework and how she needs to go to the orthodontist, I grit my teeth and remind myself that at least the girlfriend thinks she's doing something good. She drove me nuts until I gave myself permission to not respond (thanks y'all) to not get involved. Now I stand back and think, ok, she cares, she means well. That's better than the opposite.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 147
I can look back now and realize for the longest time I helped out of a need to feel important in her life. I wanted, and expected, her to heal and look back and say "It was because of him!"
Al-Anon helped me realize that I can't help her. She has to choose her own path. I can help her stand up if she stumbles but she needs to start to move forward on her own.
Even after everything fell apart in her life and mine. When she got out of inpatient I wanted so badly to be needed that I waivered in my decision to leave the marriage. I wanted so badly to feel the love I felt I had been denied for years due to her love of vodka. I wanted to be loved! So badly, I started to convince myself things could change.
Now, I look and realize I helped. Sometimes for the wrong reasons, mostly for the right but I tried. I gave it my all and now I need to step back, let her deal with the consequences of her actions and move on with my life. I can help drive her around while she is without her license from the DUI. I can take her to AA meetings. I will not be the emotional support she wants now.
I think the best help I can give now is to teach her that after it all, the affair, the years of drinking, the DUI, the arrests, the suicide attempt, that she has to deal with the consequences to our marriage. I will not be accepting of what she put me through. I don't accept she was under some spell and not accountable for her actions. My best help is letting her suffer and not bailing her out like I did in the past.
I met a couple in Al-Anon this weekend. They had to cut their daughter loose almost 15 years ago. They kicked her out, watched her walk down the street with only her bags. Had to tell her no when she called for money for "food". Watched as she got arrested for bank robbery. Listened as they were told she was prostituting herself for drugs. They tried for so long but the choice was the addicts to heal. At some point we all have to stop "helping" and let them live their own lives. If they recover or fail it is their fate to choose.
Al-Anon helped me realize that I can't help her. She has to choose her own path. I can help her stand up if she stumbles but she needs to start to move forward on her own.
Even after everything fell apart in her life and mine. When she got out of inpatient I wanted so badly to be needed that I waivered in my decision to leave the marriage. I wanted so badly to feel the love I felt I had been denied for years due to her love of vodka. I wanted to be loved! So badly, I started to convince myself things could change.
Now, I look and realize I helped. Sometimes for the wrong reasons, mostly for the right but I tried. I gave it my all and now I need to step back, let her deal with the consequences of her actions and move on with my life. I can help drive her around while she is without her license from the DUI. I can take her to AA meetings. I will not be the emotional support she wants now.
I think the best help I can give now is to teach her that after it all, the affair, the years of drinking, the DUI, the arrests, the suicide attempt, that she has to deal with the consequences to our marriage. I will not be accepting of what she put me through. I don't accept she was under some spell and not accountable for her actions. My best help is letting her suffer and not bailing her out like I did in the past.
I met a couple in Al-Anon this weekend. They had to cut their daughter loose almost 15 years ago. They kicked her out, watched her walk down the street with only her bags. Had to tell her no when she called for money for "food". Watched as she got arrested for bank robbery. Listened as they were told she was prostituting herself for drugs. They tried for so long but the choice was the addicts to heal. At some point we all have to stop "helping" and let them live their own lives. If they recover or fail it is their fate to choose.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
BuffaloGal's post got me thinking about me and how I am the first to help other people, in so many ways I just offer up my help. But when it comes to other people helping me, I am very uncomfortable with accepting help. Sometimes I get angry when someone says something about helping me. I feel like saying, "I don't need any help!" I am fully capable of this. I especially expect people who live here in this house to just accept responsibility for those things that just need to be done and not look at it as thought THEY are helping ME. I'd prefer others think of it as "sharing" the responsibilities. Because if you're HELPING me, you are putting ALL responsibility for getting it done on ME.
I think perhaps I might not think I am worth someone else bothering to help me? I feel guilty and like I'm putting them out and apologize profusely. Even when I'm just asking for someone else's input about a situation I don't know how to handle. I think it IS guilt. ???
I think perhaps I might not think I am worth someone else bothering to help me? I feel guilty and like I'm putting them out and apologize profusely. Even when I'm just asking for someone else's input about a situation I don't know how to handle. I think it IS guilt. ???
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 147
L2L I am the same way. I love to help others but I won't let others help me. I have started to try to be more accepting of help. Be more humble and realize there are people in my life who would like to help.
One thing I have done is start a monthly email to my closest friends. I let them know what is going on in my life. My ups, my downs. I don't want to live in a closest and have everyone think not hearing bad = good.
One thing I have done is start a monthly email to my closest friends. I let them know what is going on in my life. My ups, my downs. I don't want to live in a closest and have everyone think not hearing bad = good.
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