How do you handle a liar?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
How do you handle a liar?
You might have read from my last thread, "Newcomer needing advice", that I made steps to establishing boundaries with my AM. She wanted to talk about the wine I saw hidden in her closet and I wasn't ready to, so I asked her to please respect my wishes and I would talk to her when I was ready. She hung up angry, while I felt proud of myself for doing something for me instead of for her.
Well two days later I came home to a letter from her on my porch. I shouldn't have read it but curiosity got the best of me. In the letter she said the bottles were unopened and she knows I don't want to talk about it but she wasn't going to be damned for something she didn't do. I was shocked at how quickly I reverted to the gullible daughter who wanted to believe with everything in her heart that her mom was not an alcoholic. The bottle I saw in her closet was OPEN. I know it was because I told my husband almost immediately after I saw it. I know what I saw and she lied as if she was able to fool me and she might have if I wasn't so tired of this "game" we play.
Then what angered me is she was so concerned about herself that she just had to bring it up to me (she is so selfish!) and then LIE about it!!! It still gets me. I was prepared to accept her as an alcoholic and really make an effort to have a relationship with her based on that acceptance. But now I have to try to accept her as a LIAR??? That is something I wasn't prepared to do. I mean, she has always told lies, big and small. I just thought she might have moved past that. But I guess not. What do I do? I wouldn't be friends with people I don't trust, but somehow because she is my mother, I have to figure out how to deal with it. Help is appreciated.
Well two days later I came home to a letter from her on my porch. I shouldn't have read it but curiosity got the best of me. In the letter she said the bottles were unopened and she knows I don't want to talk about it but she wasn't going to be damned for something she didn't do. I was shocked at how quickly I reverted to the gullible daughter who wanted to believe with everything in her heart that her mom was not an alcoholic. The bottle I saw in her closet was OPEN. I know it was because I told my husband almost immediately after I saw it. I know what I saw and she lied as if she was able to fool me and she might have if I wasn't so tired of this "game" we play.
Then what angered me is she was so concerned about herself that she just had to bring it up to me (she is so selfish!) and then LIE about it!!! It still gets me. I was prepared to accept her as an alcoholic and really make an effort to have a relationship with her based on that acceptance. But now I have to try to accept her as a LIAR??? That is something I wasn't prepared to do. I mean, she has always told lies, big and small. I just thought she might have moved past that. But I guess not. What do I do? I wouldn't be friends with people I don't trust, but somehow because she is my mother, I have to figure out how to deal with it. Help is appreciated.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
LAC-- can I just say how glad I am that you found this place and you are asking for help!!?? Because I remember feeling the way you are feeling in relation to my alcoholic brothers. They had my thinking so twisted and tossed around I didn't know which way was up, what was I supposed to say, were they telling the truth...and on and on. Ugh. I was in A LOT of pain....reaching out and asking for and accepting help started me on the track to getting a whole lot better...
Well it doesn't matter what she says - you saw an open wine bottle and the last thing you want to set up with an alcoholic is a situation where they have to answer to YOU for their drinking. That is actually a form of enabling. They get to just play you, and only have to come up with answers and excuses for you- and it keeps them from having to answer to themselves.
I might try saying, "Hey Ma thanks for the letter but what you do is your business and you don't need to explain your behavior or what's in your closets to me."
I know your situation is complicated. But on some level you have to start backing up and taking a new clear look at how entangled you are with her and her disease and figure out a way to detach and protect your own mental health.
I needed AlAnon and one-on-one counseling to start figuring all that stuff out...have you thought about AlAnon? It's free!
peace,
b
Well it doesn't matter what she says - you saw an open wine bottle and the last thing you want to set up with an alcoholic is a situation where they have to answer to YOU for their drinking. That is actually a form of enabling. They get to just play you, and only have to come up with answers and excuses for you- and it keeps them from having to answer to themselves.
I might try saying, "Hey Ma thanks for the letter but what you do is your business and you don't need to explain your behavior or what's in your closets to me."
I know your situation is complicated. But on some level you have to start backing up and taking a new clear look at how entangled you are with her and her disease and figure out a way to detach and protect your own mental health.
I needed AlAnon and one-on-one counseling to start figuring all that stuff out...have you thought about AlAnon? It's free!
peace,
b
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Bernadette,
Thank you for your support. I really like your reply for my mom and I think I'll use it. I haven't contacted her because I didn't even know if I should acknowledge the letter because I didn't know how to address the lie. I have gone to a few AlAnon meetings but none this week. I will try for one this weekend. With your brothers, do you still engage with them on day to day life? You sound as if you have found a good understanding of how to navigate these complicated relationship. I appreciate your advice. Take care.
Thank you for your support. I really like your reply for my mom and I think I'll use it. I haven't contacted her because I didn't even know if I should acknowledge the letter because I didn't know how to address the lie. I have gone to a few AlAnon meetings but none this week. I will try for one this weekend. With your brothers, do you still engage with them on day to day life? You sound as if you have found a good understanding of how to navigate these complicated relationship. I appreciate your advice. Take care.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
Hi LAC 
The thing is, alcoholics lie. They lie about the big things, and they lie about the little things. They'll lie when you have proof in your hand. They'll lie about things that can't possibly matter. It's baffling and very frustrating.
Bernadettes advice about detaching is right on.
The thing is, alcoholics lie. They lie about the big things, and they lie about the little things. They'll lie when you have proof in your hand. They'll lie about things that can't possibly matter. It's baffling and very frustrating.
Bernadettes advice about detaching is right on.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Hi LAC--
I've been all around the barn with my brothers...from over-engaging back when I was in my twenties, to finally discovering AlAnon and putting on the brakes for a while- like not engaging at all- carving out some space to figure out the new tools...to now it's kind of like surfing- it depends what their behavior is like.
Over the years my time spent in their presence has lessened and lessened. My oldest bro hasn't had a drink in 20 years but he smokes pot 24/7/365. My youngest bro is actively alcoholic, up and down mess. My middle bro recently had 160 or so days of sobriety and AA and then he relapsed. Just before his relapse I had started spending time with him again - because he would finally do non-drinking things (movies, come over for dinner, come to his nephews events etc). I saw him a couple days ago and he wasn't drinking in front of me but he was in such a bad temper...just like he used to be when he was hungover...picked a big fight with me about politics of all things...so I'll probably give myself some space from him for a while... I've been through years of this stuff so although it is still painful sometimes it does get much much easier!
S,o no, sadly, I do not engage w/ them in the way I imagined it would be when we were all adults. I just cannot be around active alcoholism....our father was also an alcoholic when I was growing up and I just find the whole dynamic of being in a room with a drinking alcoholic to be toooooooooo toxic to my mental health so i just won't do it! If I find myself in a situation where they are there and they are drinking I either leave, cheerfully, or like at a wedding I just avoid them and hang with the non-alkie relatives!! But I am not mean about it.
I do send them messages of love however- phone calls, emails, postcards etc. And I do see them at X-mas time at my mom's which I feel like is my exam time!! I have gotten stronger every year, I like to go and see everyone, I have a very large family, and I have come away each year with more insight into myself and more compassion for them....
LAC, I think it took me two years of going to AlAnon meetings and therapy before I had created my own normal, and felt really strong in my tools and my plans for how I was going to choose to handle this apparently life-long affliction of theirs. Those first couple years were tough and I appreciated so much the advice and shares I heard at AlAnon and how it got me out of this incredible feeling of guilt and responsibility I used to shoulder...ugh...before then, my thinking was so twisted and painful, I had no perspective, and no one who really understood my situation to ask "hey what would you do if..."
So keep posting here and I hope you find some relief through AlAnon! There are so many great people on here at SR who have amamzing perspectives and most importantly they really do know what you;re going through. You;re not alone!
(((hugs)))
peace-
b
I've been all around the barn with my brothers...from over-engaging back when I was in my twenties, to finally discovering AlAnon and putting on the brakes for a while- like not engaging at all- carving out some space to figure out the new tools...to now it's kind of like surfing- it depends what their behavior is like.
Over the years my time spent in their presence has lessened and lessened. My oldest bro hasn't had a drink in 20 years but he smokes pot 24/7/365. My youngest bro is actively alcoholic, up and down mess. My middle bro recently had 160 or so days of sobriety and AA and then he relapsed. Just before his relapse I had started spending time with him again - because he would finally do non-drinking things (movies, come over for dinner, come to his nephews events etc). I saw him a couple days ago and he wasn't drinking in front of me but he was in such a bad temper...just like he used to be when he was hungover...picked a big fight with me about politics of all things...so I'll probably give myself some space from him for a while... I've been through years of this stuff so although it is still painful sometimes it does get much much easier!
S,o no, sadly, I do not engage w/ them in the way I imagined it would be when we were all adults. I just cannot be around active alcoholism....our father was also an alcoholic when I was growing up and I just find the whole dynamic of being in a room with a drinking alcoholic to be toooooooooo toxic to my mental health so i just won't do it! If I find myself in a situation where they are there and they are drinking I either leave, cheerfully, or like at a wedding I just avoid them and hang with the non-alkie relatives!! But I am not mean about it.
I do send them messages of love however- phone calls, emails, postcards etc. And I do see them at X-mas time at my mom's which I feel like is my exam time!! I have gotten stronger every year, I like to go and see everyone, I have a very large family, and I have come away each year with more insight into myself and more compassion for them....
LAC, I think it took me two years of going to AlAnon meetings and therapy before I had created my own normal, and felt really strong in my tools and my plans for how I was going to choose to handle this apparently life-long affliction of theirs. Those first couple years were tough and I appreciated so much the advice and shares I heard at AlAnon and how it got me out of this incredible feeling of guilt and responsibility I used to shoulder...ugh...before then, my thinking was so twisted and painful, I had no perspective, and no one who really understood my situation to ask "hey what would you do if..."
So keep posting here and I hope you find some relief through AlAnon! There are so many great people on here at SR who have amamzing perspectives and most importantly they really do know what you;re going through. You;re not alone!
(((hugs)))
peace-
b
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Merced, CA
Posts: 77
LAC:
I feel for you. One of earlier respondents mentioned that alcoholics lie. Yes they do! They will lie right to your face as they lie to even themselves. I learned this in an astonishing way long ago. I had a parent conference (I'm an educator) one day with a very pregnant mother of a student of mine, and she reeked of alcohol. I said nothing about it at the time, but stewed about it all that night, and the next day, I called her back in to talk to her some more. In she came, and I told her that I'd smelled alcohol on her, and was concerned that she was harming her unborn baby. She just smiled at me and said very earnestly that she'd been cleaning a closet where booze was stored, and broke one of the bottles, splashing alcohol on herself! She assured me she knew all about the dangers of drinking while pregnant, and would never ever do such a thing! That she'd so baldly feed me this outrageous story and look me right in the eye while she did it just took my breath away. I did not try to refute her story or otherwise try to argue with her as I realize I was confronting an absolutely solid, rock wall of denial that would not be breached no matter what!
Alcoholic=liar.
My own mother is not alcoholic, but she does have a mental illness, and she has always been a liar. Not that everything she says is a lie, but because she is capable of lying at any time and for any reason, I just have to take everything she says with a grain (or boulder) of salt. Yes, it has caused me a lot of heartache over the years, and I find that I always WANT to believe her. But, the fact of the matter is that I have to take skeptically everything she says. I've gotten to a place with this where I'm not troubled by it . That's just who she is.
Maybe, once you get to the place where you can accept the fact that your mother is a liar, and unlikely to change, and once you've developed a strategy for dealing with it, things should get better. I myself learned, when dealing with my liar mother, was just to nod my head, say something non-committal and move on.
It's not going to do you any good to try to force your mom to tell the truth, because even if she is able to acknowledge to herself that she is lying, she won't own up to it. At her age, and with active alcoholism, she's just going to lie.
On the other hand, you don't have to accept the lie(s). Just shine her on.
Electa
Electa
I feel for you. One of earlier respondents mentioned that alcoholics lie. Yes they do! They will lie right to your face as they lie to even themselves. I learned this in an astonishing way long ago. I had a parent conference (I'm an educator) one day with a very pregnant mother of a student of mine, and she reeked of alcohol. I said nothing about it at the time, but stewed about it all that night, and the next day, I called her back in to talk to her some more. In she came, and I told her that I'd smelled alcohol on her, and was concerned that she was harming her unborn baby. She just smiled at me and said very earnestly that she'd been cleaning a closet where booze was stored, and broke one of the bottles, splashing alcohol on herself! She assured me she knew all about the dangers of drinking while pregnant, and would never ever do such a thing! That she'd so baldly feed me this outrageous story and look me right in the eye while she did it just took my breath away. I did not try to refute her story or otherwise try to argue with her as I realize I was confronting an absolutely solid, rock wall of denial that would not be breached no matter what!
Alcoholic=liar.
My own mother is not alcoholic, but she does have a mental illness, and she has always been a liar. Not that everything she says is a lie, but because she is capable of lying at any time and for any reason, I just have to take everything she says with a grain (or boulder) of salt. Yes, it has caused me a lot of heartache over the years, and I find that I always WANT to believe her. But, the fact of the matter is that I have to take skeptically everything she says. I've gotten to a place with this where I'm not troubled by it . That's just who she is.
Maybe, once you get to the place where you can accept the fact that your mother is a liar, and unlikely to change, and once you've developed a strategy for dealing with it, things should get better. I myself learned, when dealing with my liar mother, was just to nod my head, say something non-committal and move on.
It's not going to do you any good to try to force your mom to tell the truth, because even if she is able to acknowledge to herself that she is lying, she won't own up to it. At her age, and with active alcoholism, she's just going to lie.
On the other hand, you don't have to accept the lie(s). Just shine her on.
Electa
Electa
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Still Waters, Truer words could not be said. I hate the uncertainty of it all...Wondering if the words coming out of their mouths are truth or lies. It's enough to make me crazy! Thanks for not sugar-coating it for me.
Bernadette, Just when I thought no one was listening, you replied. Thank you for sharing your story with me, though I am sorry it is one you have to tell. I am so anxious to learn the tools to living a happy, healthy life that I can still incorporate my AM into. I look forward to being able to "ride the waves" without being taken out by a rip current (thought I'd continue your surfing metaphor).
That guilt and responsibility you referred to is certainly difficult. Currently I have guilt about not calling my AM, but I just don't know what to say. How do I have a normal conversation when my inner dialogue is screaming at her? Can we really just sit and talk about the weather when we both know what it is we aren't talking about? Or can I really just work up the courage to let it go? That's what this healing is all about, right? Letting go...of control, my pride, my ego, my codependency, my blockers to a healthy path, my need to have the truth be told...
My guilt was exacerbated by your comment that you send your brothers messages of love. I don't do that for my mom and I haven't for a long time. I did keep up with calling but not because I wanted to, but because I felt obligated to by guilt. The hurt prevents me from wanting to convey real love to her. I just don't want to risk my heart again. I avoid her because it is easier sometimes, like now. Then I feel bad about not having more compassion towards her, which makes it worse. AGH! Vicious cycle!
Again, thank you everyone for your responses and advice.
Be well!
Bernadette, Just when I thought no one was listening, you replied. Thank you for sharing your story with me, though I am sorry it is one you have to tell. I am so anxious to learn the tools to living a happy, healthy life that I can still incorporate my AM into. I look forward to being able to "ride the waves" without being taken out by a rip current (thought I'd continue your surfing metaphor).
That guilt and responsibility you referred to is certainly difficult. Currently I have guilt about not calling my AM, but I just don't know what to say. How do I have a normal conversation when my inner dialogue is screaming at her? Can we really just sit and talk about the weather when we both know what it is we aren't talking about? Or can I really just work up the courage to let it go? That's what this healing is all about, right? Letting go...of control, my pride, my ego, my codependency, my blockers to a healthy path, my need to have the truth be told...
My guilt was exacerbated by your comment that you send your brothers messages of love. I don't do that for my mom and I haven't for a long time. I did keep up with calling but not because I wanted to, but because I felt obligated to by guilt. The hurt prevents me from wanting to convey real love to her. I just don't want to risk my heart again. I avoid her because it is easier sometimes, like now. Then I feel bad about not having more compassion towards her, which makes it worse. AGH! Vicious cycle!
Again, thank you everyone for your responses and advice.
Be well!
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
I was shocked at how quickly I reverted to the gullible daughter who wanted to believe with everything in her heart that her mom was not an alcoholic.
I do not think that voice is from a gullible daughter but from a hurt daughter that is realizing who her mother choses to be.
I would not say you are gullible, controlling, proud, etc. etc, while you may have some defects just like everybody, expecting a Mom to be truthful & responsible is just natural.
I get what you mean by talking about the weather, I had an alcoholic boyfriend (early stages) and every important conversation was ignoring the elephant in the room. Very frustrating.
Having reduced contact or no contact for a while can give you time to become stronger. And from her perspective, she can realize something has changed with you and her behavior is not very acceptable to you... perhaps this prompts her to take a good look to herself. Perhaps not, but that is not under your control.
Stay strong and I am glad you found SR, its a lifeline!
I do not think that voice is from a gullible daughter but from a hurt daughter that is realizing who her mother choses to be.
I would not say you are gullible, controlling, proud, etc. etc, while you may have some defects just like everybody, expecting a Mom to be truthful & responsible is just natural.
I get what you mean by talking about the weather, I had an alcoholic boyfriend (early stages) and every important conversation was ignoring the elephant in the room. Very frustrating.
Having reduced contact or no contact for a while can give you time to become stronger. And from her perspective, she can realize something has changed with you and her behavior is not very acceptable to you... perhaps this prompts her to take a good look to herself. Perhaps not, but that is not under your control.
Stay strong and I am glad you found SR, its a lifeline!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Powerless, Pa
Posts: 18
Dear LAC,
Sorry to be so blunt, but a leopard doesn't change it's spots ...I was going
to give you a website that helped me but I can't post it about deception.
I was living with a pathological liar. .he made me second guess
myself, I'd confront him and he would lie to cover up the lies and
they all sounded good but lying goes STRAIGHT to the core. .Lying makes
you feel insane becuase you SEE things and then the person is saying
"NO" you didnt see that . . .That's insanity for ya. .I can totally relate
to you, but acoholics get volatile and hostile (any alcoholic or addict
that doesn't want help will behave this way)
I also can identify becuase my sister is a pathological liar . . get
this I'm 47 and i NEVER knew until 2 years ago when my brother-in-law
starting coming over for coffee to vent and he told me "didn't you know
you can't believe a word you're sister says?" I was Devastated!!!!!!!.. . he's my best friend (one of them) anyway the lying part added to the drinking is NOT going to stop.
My aunt just killed herslef with prescription drugs and alcohol
due to her kids not having anything to do with her and my mother
confronted her on seeing bottle of vodka in her house and my
mother threatened to tell someone on her (cant' remember who)
and my aunt said striaght out "I'll tell them you're a LAIR"
my mother just stayed away from her . . you can't reason with them,
they don't change and you have to admit you're powerless
over their behavior . ... .any type of lying is deceptive and extremely
painful especially with a loved one. my heart goes out to you.
You're question? . .how do YOU deal with her lying?
the answer is take your attention off her cause she's hurting you and
driving you crazy . . .take your attention off of her and take
care of you. . . 1st things 1st in other words take care of your needs
first .. .you can't change her, "acceptance is the answer to ALL my problems
today" I learned that in AA myself ..hard to do but the best solution in the world..
May I recommend some books that were given to me?
"Courage to change"(subheading - One day at a time in Al-Anon)
I got it from al-anon meeting or someone gave it to me , you might
find it cheap under half.com . . .it was $8. . .also there's another
good book that might help you "The Language of Letting go" by Melody Beattie. .
excelent books . ..I hate to say this but me and my mother both
got burnt out from helping my drug addict aunt . . . becuase she was
lying to everyone and she did NOT want help . . .we threw in the towel
and just let her go . . .we were watching her die .. it killed us but we
stopped calling and visiting . . . WE did everything we could and
she still killed herself , you have no control over her , only
control you have is the power to control YOU and practice
"hating the disease but love the person" .. . btw, my aunt had 15 grandchildren
and her lying and drinking and prescription drug addiction drove them
all away . . they ALL disowned her becuase of exactly what you're mother
is doing . she didn't want help and they all knew they were wasting their
time . .and PLEASE don't let the guilt on not trying to help her anymore
get the best of you. .You can't help someone who doesn't want it .
All it does is put you in a deep powerless feeling depression and
I hope that you keep venting and just come to terms that
like I said "a leopard doesn't change their spots" . .. .. alcoholism
is called the "family" disease, it can make you sick also because
it affects the whole family and or friends . . .so I would learn
to detach and take care of you so you don't carry her burdens.
Also my grandfather is an A and he is putting his adult children
through the most incorrigible h*ll I didn't know a father
could do to his children, he's 93 and it's a nightmare . . ..
my heart goes out to you, I hope you find the compassion and empathy
and wisdom in this post becuae i'm just so accostumed (spelling)to
alcohlics and liars . . .I had way too much experience so I hope
you this post doesn't sound like just words becuase I think you need
a big hug and that's in this post too ((((( LAC )))))) . ..and I
have lost trust in a lot of people, but I pray to keep my sanity. .
hope this helps .. one day at a time . .
Debs
Sorry to be so blunt, but a leopard doesn't change it's spots ...I was going
to give you a website that helped me but I can't post it about deception.
I was living with a pathological liar. .he made me second guess
myself, I'd confront him and he would lie to cover up the lies and
they all sounded good but lying goes STRAIGHT to the core. .Lying makes
you feel insane becuase you SEE things and then the person is saying
"NO" you didnt see that . . .That's insanity for ya. .I can totally relate
to you, but acoholics get volatile and hostile (any alcoholic or addict
that doesn't want help will behave this way)
I also can identify becuase my sister is a pathological liar . . get
this I'm 47 and i NEVER knew until 2 years ago when my brother-in-law
starting coming over for coffee to vent and he told me "didn't you know
you can't believe a word you're sister says?" I was Devastated!!!!!!!.. . he's my best friend (one of them) anyway the lying part added to the drinking is NOT going to stop.
My aunt just killed herslef with prescription drugs and alcohol
due to her kids not having anything to do with her and my mother
confronted her on seeing bottle of vodka in her house and my
mother threatened to tell someone on her (cant' remember who)
and my aunt said striaght out "I'll tell them you're a LAIR"
my mother just stayed away from her . . you can't reason with them,
they don't change and you have to admit you're powerless
over their behavior . ... .any type of lying is deceptive and extremely
painful especially with a loved one. my heart goes out to you.
You're question? . .how do YOU deal with her lying?
the answer is take your attention off her cause she's hurting you and
driving you crazy . . .take your attention off of her and take
care of you. . . 1st things 1st in other words take care of your needs
first .. .you can't change her, "acceptance is the answer to ALL my problems
today" I learned that in AA myself ..hard to do but the best solution in the world..
May I recommend some books that were given to me?
"Courage to change"(subheading - One day at a time in Al-Anon)
I got it from al-anon meeting or someone gave it to me , you might
find it cheap under half.com . . .it was $8. . .also there's another
good book that might help you "The Language of Letting go" by Melody Beattie. .
excelent books . ..I hate to say this but me and my mother both
got burnt out from helping my drug addict aunt . . . becuase she was
lying to everyone and she did NOT want help . . .we threw in the towel
and just let her go . . .we were watching her die .. it killed us but we
stopped calling and visiting . . . WE did everything we could and
she still killed herself , you have no control over her , only
control you have is the power to control YOU and practice
"hating the disease but love the person" .. . btw, my aunt had 15 grandchildren
and her lying and drinking and prescription drug addiction drove them
all away . . they ALL disowned her becuase of exactly what you're mother
is doing . she didn't want help and they all knew they were wasting their
time . .and PLEASE don't let the guilt on not trying to help her anymore
get the best of you. .You can't help someone who doesn't want it .
All it does is put you in a deep powerless feeling depression and
I hope that you keep venting and just come to terms that
like I said "a leopard doesn't change their spots" . .. .. alcoholism
is called the "family" disease, it can make you sick also because
it affects the whole family and or friends . . .so I would learn
to detach and take care of you so you don't carry her burdens.
Also my grandfather is an A and he is putting his adult children
through the most incorrigible h*ll I didn't know a father
could do to his children, he's 93 and it's a nightmare . . ..
my heart goes out to you, I hope you find the compassion and empathy
and wisdom in this post becuae i'm just so accostumed (spelling)to
alcohlics and liars . . .I had way too much experience so I hope
you this post doesn't sound like just words becuase I think you need
a big hug and that's in this post too ((((( LAC )))))) . ..and I
have lost trust in a lot of people, but I pray to keep my sanity. .
hope this helps .. one day at a time . .
Debs
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Powerless, Pa
Posts: 18
LAC,
one more thing . .. you have to find a way deep in your soul to forgive
her (takes time) . and how you'll know in time (that word we all hate)?
if you're really truly forgiven her is when you DO have compassion . .
sorry but remember what was said on the cross before J Died? .
Forgive them father for they know not what they do?
Forgive me for quoting something spiritual but it helped me
deal with my emotional rape extremely dysfunctional abusive
mother myself .. ..it's the ONLY way I've learned to forgive
and now I DO feel compassion but on occasion it still hurts
and I too avoid her beuase it's taking care of me .. . .
I was brought up with a conditional, guilt/shame based
love that had me in therapy for years .. . .this was
my solution . . .stop trying to fight, worry , argue, reason .
the answer was to forgive and take care of me (withOUT the guilt)
Debs
one more thing . .. you have to find a way deep in your soul to forgive
her (takes time) . and how you'll know in time (that word we all hate)?
if you're really truly forgiven her is when you DO have compassion . .
sorry but remember what was said on the cross before J Died? .
Forgive them father for they know not what they do?
Forgive me for quoting something spiritual but it helped me
deal with my emotional rape extremely dysfunctional abusive
mother myself .. ..it's the ONLY way I've learned to forgive
and now I DO feel compassion but on occasion it still hurts
and I too avoid her beuase it's taking care of me .. . .
I was brought up with a conditional, guilt/shame based
love that had me in therapy for years .. . .this was
my solution . . .stop trying to fight, worry , argue, reason .
the answer was to forgive and take care of me (withOUT the guilt)
Debs
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
How do I have a normal conversation when my inner dialogue is screaming at her? Can we really just sit and talk about the weather when we both know what it is we aren't talking about?
Yeah wow- this is really a first big hurdle to get over and I had exactly the same issues!! I can only tell you what worked for me- and maybe you can try it...
Through AlAnon I started finding out about acceptance. Acceptance of things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can. I had to accept my powerlessness over my brothers and over alcohol in their lives.
This took some time (acceptance is hard for me- I always think things should be this way or that!!).
Once I got to a reasonable state of acceptance of this I realized that my conversations w/ my bros were just false all around. I decided I needed to talk about the elephant, once, and then move on.
So I told them each in my own time and in my own way and only once(not easy to let it go but essential!!) that I was scared and concerned about their drinking and that I hoped some day they would get sober and get some help with recovery, just like our Dad finally did. And I handed them the number to their local AA.
These were awkward conversations and one bro got pissy, like he always does, but whatever, I was tired of dancing around. Sooooooooooo tired.
At the same time as I had these conversations I was training my mind to stop wasting thoughts on their drinking, consequences of their drinking, potential tragedies of their drinking, actual tragedies of their drinking etc. I had to daily tell myself to STOP thinking of that, and I had to come up with some replacement thoughts - like:
All is well
I didn't Cause it
I Can't Control it
I Can't Cure it
I now choose to support myself in loving joyous ways...
Thoughts like that.
I also didn't want any more of that strained false talk about the weather crap...so where could I meet them authentically and honestly for myself? Well, to be true to myself I had to engage less and less...I had to accept (again!) that because of the interference of their active alcoholism I really couldn't have a deep and honest connection with them, they simply are not emotionally available for that....
This somehow led me to deeper compassion because I realized some of the true things I could communicate with them were-
that I love them
that I accept them as they are
that I am grateful they are my brothers and protected me through some hairy situations when I was a kid/teenager
I realized I could still share a book or an article with them that I know will interest them and we can talk about that...
things like that.
All of which was strange at first but only because it was different-- unfamiliar and outside the "rules" of abnormal communication we had learned in our alkie/codie household.
This took time and patience and is still a work in progress - but I find it all involves "doing" less than I used to think I needed to "do."
Less listening to BS.
Less talking (from me) more neutral responses and no more telling them what I think they should be doing! I had to learn to just say "hunh...." or "I see..." and let it go at that.
I had to accept that when I changed, things were were going to change between us. If I really wanted change then I had to accept it and let it happen by truly changing my thoughts and my behaviors.
Baby steps LAC!! Still get you places!!
peace-
b
Yeah wow- this is really a first big hurdle to get over and I had exactly the same issues!! I can only tell you what worked for me- and maybe you can try it...
Through AlAnon I started finding out about acceptance. Acceptance of things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can. I had to accept my powerlessness over my brothers and over alcohol in their lives.
This took some time (acceptance is hard for me- I always think things should be this way or that!!).
Once I got to a reasonable state of acceptance of this I realized that my conversations w/ my bros were just false all around. I decided I needed to talk about the elephant, once, and then move on.
So I told them each in my own time and in my own way and only once(not easy to let it go but essential!!) that I was scared and concerned about their drinking and that I hoped some day they would get sober and get some help with recovery, just like our Dad finally did. And I handed them the number to their local AA.
These were awkward conversations and one bro got pissy, like he always does, but whatever, I was tired of dancing around. Sooooooooooo tired.
At the same time as I had these conversations I was training my mind to stop wasting thoughts on their drinking, consequences of their drinking, potential tragedies of their drinking, actual tragedies of their drinking etc. I had to daily tell myself to STOP thinking of that, and I had to come up with some replacement thoughts - like:
All is well
I didn't Cause it
I Can't Control it
I Can't Cure it
I now choose to support myself in loving joyous ways...
Thoughts like that.
I also didn't want any more of that strained false talk about the weather crap...so where could I meet them authentically and honestly for myself? Well, to be true to myself I had to engage less and less...I had to accept (again!) that because of the interference of their active alcoholism I really couldn't have a deep and honest connection with them, they simply are not emotionally available for that....
This somehow led me to deeper compassion because I realized some of the true things I could communicate with them were-
that I love them
that I accept them as they are
that I am grateful they are my brothers and protected me through some hairy situations when I was a kid/teenager
I realized I could still share a book or an article with them that I know will interest them and we can talk about that...
things like that.
All of which was strange at first but only because it was different-- unfamiliar and outside the "rules" of abnormal communication we had learned in our alkie/codie household.
This took time and patience and is still a work in progress - but I find it all involves "doing" less than I used to think I needed to "do."
Less listening to BS.
Less talking (from me) more neutral responses and no more telling them what I think they should be doing! I had to learn to just say "hunh...." or "I see..." and let it go at that.
I had to accept that when I changed, things were were going to change between us. If I really wanted change then I had to accept it and let it happen by truly changing my thoughts and my behaviors.
Baby steps LAC!! Still get you places!!
peace-
b
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
In AA, they have a phrase: "constitutionally incapable of being honest." The AA program requires honesty; this is one of its tenets. Reason being, honesty is an enemy of addiction. Without honesty, no one would even make it to step 1, admitting you are powerless.
Put yourself in the place of the alcoholic. Imagine being enslaved to a drug or drink. That's how I look at it-this is mental and emotional slavery. So many alcoholics are in denial because they have this perception, which is pervasive in our society, that alcoholics are losers. An alcoholic is that bum lying on skid row in his own vomit. Well, that's certainly not me!<--thought process
I think deep down inside they know they are making themselves and others unhappy, but that is a TOUGH thing to face. Much easier to sweep it under the rug and pretend. "No, that bottle wasn't open! It was closed", because she knows what your reaction will be if you know the truth--fear, anger, frustration, etc., and she just can't deal with it, because she'll feel like a loser.
Alcoholics are therefore often hiding the evidence--the beer bottles, the wine bottles--alcoholism requires secrecy and deception by its very nature. So, lying becomes second nature to the alcoholic. "Constitutionally incapable of being honest" also means, incapable of being honest with yourself.
When my exabf lied to me, I just tried to think of it as, it's the disease lying, not him.
Put yourself in the place of the alcoholic. Imagine being enslaved to a drug or drink. That's how I look at it-this is mental and emotional slavery. So many alcoholics are in denial because they have this perception, which is pervasive in our society, that alcoholics are losers. An alcoholic is that bum lying on skid row in his own vomit. Well, that's certainly not me!<--thought process
I think deep down inside they know they are making themselves and others unhappy, but that is a TOUGH thing to face. Much easier to sweep it under the rug and pretend. "No, that bottle wasn't open! It was closed", because she knows what your reaction will be if you know the truth--fear, anger, frustration, etc., and she just can't deal with it, because she'll feel like a loser.
Alcoholics are therefore often hiding the evidence--the beer bottles, the wine bottles--alcoholism requires secrecy and deception by its very nature. So, lying becomes second nature to the alcoholic. "Constitutionally incapable of being honest" also means, incapable of being honest with yourself.
When my exabf lied to me, I just tried to think of it as, it's the disease lying, not him.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Thank you to everyone who has contributed personal stories and pearls of wisdom (be it their own or AA/AlAnon's) to this discussion. I let it all simmer for awhile and didn't make contact with my mom until I was ready. Today I had to go to her house for financial business and prayed as I drove down her street and walked up her steps for courage and guidance and peace. I received all and felt blessed as I left her house after 30ish conflict-free minutes!!! We chatted (mostly her talk and I listen) about her past weeks and her plans for the future. I praised her on things she was doing well in her life and I looked her in the eye when she spoke. (I usually have so much rage inside me that I can't even give her the courtesy of looking at her when she speaks. I think it made her uncomfortable though.) She did not bring up the bottle issue and subsequent lying letter, and neither did I. But I had a proper response ready if she did, thanks to some helpful contributors above. I am learning how to accept her for what she is and what she is plagued with, and give her the compassion and respect she deserves. I am thinking of printing out these threads and making my own "daily reader". I need constant reminder of some things in order for them to sink in because I am still fighting for control and wanting things this way or that. Thank you again to all who helped sort out this difficult time.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
As far as I'm concerned accepting reality -- ragardless of what that reality is - does not necessarily imply any specific course of action. In other words, the fact that I accept someone is an alcoholic or that someone is a liar does not necessarily imply that I have to "live with" that person's drinking or that person's lies.
Acceptance, for me, is very simply about seeing things as they really are so that I can then make the best possible decisions when it comes to taking care of myself. Sometimes that means deciding that I don't want to have that person in my life or that I will only be willing to be around that person as long as he or she respects certain boundaries.
And for me, the fact that that person is a family member really is not relevant to my decision. I mean, if I've decided that I don't want to be around someone who lies to me, then the fact that the liar happens to be my parent or my partner or some other relative really does not change my decision. Why should it be any more acceptable (in the sense of "my being willing to put up with") to me that my mom lies to me than that a friend or an acquaintance lies to me? If anything, it would seem to me to be worse and more of a betrayal to have someone very close to me lying to me than someone less close.
Basically, I deserve to be respected and treated well and I want to be around people who can do that......no exceptions.
freya
Acceptance, for me, is very simply about seeing things as they really are so that I can then make the best possible decisions when it comes to taking care of myself. Sometimes that means deciding that I don't want to have that person in my life or that I will only be willing to be around that person as long as he or she respects certain boundaries.
And for me, the fact that that person is a family member really is not relevant to my decision. I mean, if I've decided that I don't want to be around someone who lies to me, then the fact that the liar happens to be my parent or my partner or some other relative really does not change my decision. Why should it be any more acceptable (in the sense of "my being willing to put up with") to me that my mom lies to me than that a friend or an acquaintance lies to me? If anything, it would seem to me to be worse and more of a betrayal to have someone very close to me lying to me than someone less close.
Basically, I deserve to be respected and treated well and I want to be around people who can do that......no exceptions.
freya
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by LAC 
How do you handle a liar?
2nd column lies to me
3rd column affects my self esteem, etc.
"realization" I've lied to her and others
4th column I've done or do these things that harm her...
I'm just saying.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
Posts: 407
Keep in mind, it is entirely possible that your mother lied to you because she did not want to disappoint you. Shame is a powerful motivator. My former husband has a hugely negative self image, and probably can't tolerate the idea of me thinking of him that way too. Remembering that helps me sympathize with his motives for dishonesty more, and reduces my impulse to throttle him.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Hi everyone. My mom called last night to tell me how much she enjoyed me visiting that day. Despite detecting the slurring of words, I appreciated the sincerity of her feelings and told her I enjoyed the visit also. I am discovering how to be kind to her because if she is still drinking, while having already nearly died and while currently being sick and coughing up blood (she just told me this today-I wonder if it's true or if it's for attention?-I feel awful thinking that but she's told worse lies), she must be in pretty sad shape inside. Anyways, here are replies to the lastest reponses...
Freya, I understand what you are saying. I agree with you that acceptance is not saying I must live with the alcoholic the way they are. Instead, it allows me to interact with them in a positive, healthy manner, should I choose to do so.
I battle with this question quite often and I considered writing my AM out of my life several times. It is more hurtful that, as an only child, the one of two people that I am given to count on in life is an alcoholic and liar. I guess it is a matter of what I am comfortable with. Since she has no other living family (all died when I was a child) and my dad divorced her 10 years ago taking most of his family with him, I feel an inability to turn my back on her. Perhaps this is a part of my codependency, but I would like to think that this is the one bit of compassion that I retain for her.
keithj I'm curious about these columns you wrote about above...Is this an exercise you think I should do? Please explain more.
Learn2Live I was in my mother's closet to see if a shoe rack would fit. For the first time in a long time, I was truly NOT looking for alcohol. It didn't really cross my mind until seconds before I saw the wine bottle.
BuffaloGal You are absolutely right. My mother loves me so much that she can't stand the thought of disappointing me or of me seeing her as she really is. Unfortunately, she "can't stand it" enough to stop doing it. But I think the realization of the same thought you expressed, is what is helping me to build compassion for her. That's what I want most really...To have compassion for her. I have a harder time living with the guilt of not treating her kindly than I do with her being an alcoholic. I often felt justified in being snide with her or ignoring her because of how she was continuously hurting me with her actions. But she will have to answer for behavior and I for mine. I want to live a positive life, free of negativity, guilt and regret. I am trying to get over myself and my hurt in order to do just that.
Thanks again to everyone who writes. I appreciate and look forward to your thoughts and stories.
Freya, I understand what you are saying. I agree with you that acceptance is not saying I must live with the alcoholic the way they are. Instead, it allows me to interact with them in a positive, healthy manner, should I choose to do so.
Why should it be any more acceptable to me that my mom lies to me than that a friend or an acquaintance lies to me? If anything, it would seem to me to be worse and more of a betrayal to have someone very close to me lying to me than someone less close.
keithj I'm curious about these columns you wrote about above...Is this an exercise you think I should do? Please explain more.
Learn2Live I was in my mother's closet to see if a shoe rack would fit. For the first time in a long time, I was truly NOT looking for alcohol. It didn't really cross my mind until seconds before I saw the wine bottle.
BuffaloGal You are absolutely right. My mother loves me so much that she can't stand the thought of disappointing me or of me seeing her as she really is. Unfortunately, she "can't stand it" enough to stop doing it. But I think the realization of the same thought you expressed, is what is helping me to build compassion for her. That's what I want most really...To have compassion for her. I have a harder time living with the guilt of not treating her kindly than I do with her being an alcoholic. I often felt justified in being snide with her or ignoring her because of how she was continuously hurting me with her actions. But she will have to answer for behavior and I for mine. I want to live a positive life, free of negativity, guilt and regret. I am trying to get over myself and my hurt in order to do just that.
Thanks again to everyone who writes. I appreciate and look forward to your thoughts and stories.
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