Ananda

well.....it feels strange to write here

I have read some of the threads...but thought maybe it would help me to just post what i'm wanting to know about and see what happens.

I have alot of friends and family that are alchoholic/addicts and still drink/use.

I have chosen to stay in relationships with them.

I am curious..has anyone here ever made the decision to stay with an alchoholic/addict significant other, especially a relationship that envolves daily contact, and found tools that allow them to live safely and sanely in that relationship?

I believe it is possible, but would like to here from those who HAVE done that....I can go read plenty of posts about how leaving is the only answer....and run like hell advise. I understand that I can't fix them.

I kinda think that there won't be anyone here with that expreince...but i thought i needed to give this a try.

Thanks for letting me ask..hope it was not out of line.

evmdimples

Ananda, it's about keeping the focus on self, committing to your own recovery work, learning to establish healthy boundaries, doing self-care, etc. Do you do CoDA? I believe that's where you'll find the tools you are looking for. I posted a similar question yesterday on another forum and as I muddled through my post, I came to the realization that: I don't want to be all alone, isolated from family, friends and lovers. I see a lot of that in the recovery community I've been around. I want to be in relationships with people (my mom, family, g/f, etc). I'm slowly learning how, without losing myself, and my serenity, in the "stuff" that comes up. I need to continue working on my own recovery, to learn how to be in healthy relationship with myself first and then with others. With recovery I am learning how to become a healthy adult, that's how I learn to establish healthy boundaries that will keep me sane, in a manner that is caring and respectful of me and hopefully of others. I'm a work in progress, one day at time. And it's working. In my case, as I work on healing my core issues, all other relationships slowly begin to heal, starting with myself.
peace,
elena

freya

Actually, I think pretty much everyone here has had that experience at some point....but some of us are having very different experiences now because we are making very different choices now.

In program, I have gained lots of knowledge and found lots of tools that allow me to live safely and sanely in lots of dysfunctional situations.

Detachment is one of the most important / most effective. Keeping in touch with my HP and keeping my focus on myself are also absolutely necessary.

However, for me, the thing I've found is that the better I become using my tools and working my program (with everything that that entails) and the healthier I become, the less I am drawn to and/or interested remaining in unhealthy, dysfunctional relationships and situations.

I guess the way I look at it is like this: I have all of these tools and have committed to this path of emotional health and of the spiritual growth. I know and am close to a lot of people who have done / are doing the same. I have access to a lot of power / support / guidance from those people and from my HP. Is the best I can really do in and with my life to put all of that growth and work and power to use in enabling me to stay safe and sane in insane, dysfunctional, unsafe relationships/situations with insane, unhealthy, toxic people????

I mean, sure, I suppose I could choose to use what I have been given in that way...but is that really the best use of what I've been given????? Is it even an appropriate use of what I've been given? Now that I can practice detachment relatively easily and appropriately, don't I need to ask myself if I want to live my life in such a way that I am required to be "detached" most of the time....or do I want a life and relationships in which I can be fully emotionally involved and present and in which others can and are committed to doing/being the same?

I also ask myself: "If I don't put what I'm being given to the best use I can, why would HP continue to give me so much in the future???" I feel pretty certain that my HP wants me to live all-out, and to be fully present, and to continue to work on and actualize myself....Sure, in any situation or relationship there are going to be times when I need to protect and distance myself, and I think that that's just a normal thing that happens sometimes because nobody and nothing in the world is perfect. And I can do that temporarily on a situational basis, and it's not a problem in any way. But I am also very, very aware that, when I find myself in situations / with people where I have to do that pretty much continuously, then I am squandering time and energy that I could be using for much better, healthier purposes.

freya

Freedom1990

Thanks for pointing this out, Freya, because that has been the case for me too.

I found the healthier I became in my recovery, the more I wanted to spend time with other healthy people who brought something to my life, and vice versa!

My parents can still be very toxic, and I've found it works quite nicely to have a little get-together with them once every month or two for a movie, eats, and then we part ways. I can spend some time with them, but it's on neutral grounds, and just for a few hours.

evmdimples

Ananda, as far as actual tools I've been using that are working: when something comes up--a trigger (in conversation, for ex.) I'm learning to stay put (not explode in anger, my go-to emotion), I make a mental note about the trigger and later figure out a "healthy" answer that will work for me, for the next time. (If I'm fortunate, I'll even have clarity about what the real issue is, which usually has nothing to do with the situation at hand. ) Sometimes just using a different tone of voice makes a difference, shoot, even in our email lingo: NO!!! vs. no... I've had people counter me with: but you HAVE to FEEL your ANGER! Well, the way I see it, I've been feeling my anger to that particular trigger all my life, I'm ready to let go of the old behavior and am ready for something new. Like with anything else, it requires practice and mindfulness. I'm told that the more we practice these behaviors, they become ingrained in us, a natural part of us. I also know that as I move forward and become healthier, what is true for me today, may change tomorrow. I have seen that already and so what the others have said is also true for me. But we figure that out in our own time.
peace
elena

catlovermi

For me, this also was a key question that needed exploring. Just because I was able to pull out a tool to deal with dysfunctional behavior in someone else, why would I want to live in the middle of dysfunction? The answer evolved that I didn't. There was a whole better world out there for the experiencing, that I was imprisoned from as long as I held to the status quo, no matter how "well" I held to it.

For me, it's like: Why go to culinary arts school if I'm going to limit myself only to eggs? There's only so much you can do with eggs, no matter how many seasonings you put on them.

CLMI

ReadyToHelp

I don't encourage staying with one, mostly because this is a progressive disease. But I understand the desire; I live it every day.

I live with my ABF and am so tempted to stay with him. That would mean I can't share my daily b.s. with friends and family. They have limits in what they want to hear and see me go through. I haven't told anyone that I found an empty vodka bottle in his bag last night. The first time I found one hidden. The last time he just had a binge so the bottles were in full view.

My best advice is to read books on addicts so you know what kind of behavior to expect. When they blame you and you know it's not you, then you have to tell yourself and know deep in your heart it's not you. And you can't accept the blame. (But it's easy to slip into that trap. I can now see how people can be brainwashed.)

You have to be able to keep in mind the difference between their world and reality. You are living in reality, they live in their world. When the two clash, they swear they're right and you're wrong. You have to remember that always. Your truth is reality because you're not the one who is sick and in denial. (It's kind of like not taking them seriously. They lie, they get confused, they make up things.)

You have to remember that their minds are not functioning like a normal adult's mind. So they tend to forget a lot of things - conversations, events, decisions - because they were drunk or because of wet brain. Either way, you remember and they don't. It's like a lot of your memories are just your word against his - and you live through stuff that he won't remember. You have to be ready to accept that.

IMHO, there are two scariest parts of living with an A:
1) He could wind up with wet brain. That means you'll be taking care of someone who has dementia-like functioning.
2) He has no idea what he's doing when high. That means he could start cooking and leave the flame on and burn down the house - with you in it! He could drive while drunk and wreck your car, kill someone and (if you're married), you get stuck with the damages.

My ABF was taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation twice before we got together. He also poisoned himself twice and almost died. Had seizures in front of his ex wife. Cheated on her twice. Went blind for a day. Threw up all over their house. Threw up and went to the bathroom all over his mom's bathroom, and didn't use the toilet, during a 4-day binge while she was away.

What about violence. My ABF would never, ever, never, ever, ever touch a fly. But he shoved me once, and he wasn't even drunk. So, who knows what's in anyone's capacity at any given time??

It's do-able, but at a price. And it could be a big price. You have ask yourself these questions:

Am I willing to deal with the characteristics of an addict? (You have to read up on what they do, how they operate, how the addiction affects their brain.)
Am I willing to give up friends and family in exchange for being in a relationship?
Am I willing to be in a relationship with someone who gives me less than I put in?
Am I willing to be 2nd to the bottle or drug?
Am I willing to subject myself to the type of friends an addict tends to attract?
Am I willing to be with someone who may wind up very sick with no insurance to cover him, no long term care insurance and so I would have to make arrangements for his care?
Am I willing to be the only financially responsible person in the relationship?

These are questions I've posed to myself. And frankly, in exchange for being with the love of my life, I'm tempted to blow everything off. But when I stopped lying to myself and I recognized that "he's just not that into me", I saw that I was into him more than he was into me. I am hosting his party. I pay the bills, the rent. He gives me "what he can". I started looking at the facts, removing our faces and my dreams, and saw that his few crumbs of affection, covered in loads of loving, romantic comments, text messages and letters - is really not enough for me. I believe he truly loves me. But I believe he doesn't love himself, so therefore he truly...what, thinks he loves me? Besides, I want a man with whom I can have conversations and long walks, and short/long-term goals. I had to face the truth - I wanted him more than I wanted a good relationship, until I realized that...the little bit that he was throwing over in my direction (that I learned to be happy with because that's how our minds operate. See "He's Just No Good For You" by Beth Wilson.) were really, truly not enough. I'd rather be alone forever than to wonder if he's using me, and if he's going to come home smelling like perfume again.

The only thing I urge you to do is look at him with the truth in mind. Vernon Howard has great booklets on how to see the truth in a man. "Women - 50 Ways to See Thru Men" is a great booklet. New Life - Vernon Howard His work is not related to addiction, but to seeing the truth and making decisions based on it.

If you take out the defensiveness when it comes to the automatic warnings when dealing with an addict, and you just look at the truth, then maybe your answer will be staring you in the face.

BTW, my ABF's former roommate at a safe house is such a source of support. And I think he'd make a great partner for someone one day. He's focused, has a great job, and urges me to see the truth, not listen to my ABF's words.

I think about this: when he's terribly drunk, he won't know what he's doing. That means he could hurt us both. That means he could have an affair and contract an STD and not even know. That also means he could drive into someone's house and stick me with the bill -like he did to his ex wife. She's still paying and he won't give her a dime towards it.

I am 1000% for being there for him as he recovers. But in my situation, he won't admit he's an A, so I choose not to join him in his journey to nowhere.

Educate yourself. Protect yourself. Track changes in his behavior. Come up with boundaries and then when he crosses them, go away.

Keep your eyes open and know the facts about addiction. Rent the HBO series called "Addiction". Get the series by Toby Drews: "Getting Them Sober". Read books by doctors. Find out what addicts tendencies are.

You have a wonderful gift called life. Do what you want with it, but most importantly, learn from your mistakes. That is, if you want to lead a fulfilled life.

ReadyTo...Let Go

itisatruth

Thank you for asking

What has worked (so far) for me is keeping my boundaries clear and how I expect to be treated in any relationship in my life - family or friend.

I am married to and still live with my AH.

Today, things are OK.

I'm having a hard time expressing how I believe things can work out without saying that I very may well have to end my relationship someday.

I guess it's as simple as:

If he chooses to use, one of us will leave.

And as complicated as:

If he chooses to use, one of us will leave.

So again, making it clear what you will and will not tolerate and how you will follow through with those choices. If someone lies - choose to not trust again - stuff like that.

Here on SR I get such a different perspective than I do at my alanon meetings. I'm thankful for all the ES&H of both places, but in my home group almost all of the regulars are still in relationships with their alcoholic/addict loved ones. Things I hear there are enforcing boundaries, accepting them for who they are - even if you don't like what they are doing, keeping focus on things you can control (yourself), not trying to change or control them, and loving yourself enough to take good care of yourself.

Ananda

i wish i could go to your alanon meeting that would be helpful.

Thanks for the responses and I think some of this will be very helpful

bluejay6

Addiction is progressive.

You will grow. He won't.

You will live an honest life. He won't.

You will be lonely. He won't.

You will dread his drinking and using. He won't.

You will live in reality. He won't.

In time, you will begin to lose your mind.

Him too.

It all depends on what you settle for.

itisatruth

Addiction is progressive. It is ugly. It is devastating. People die. Homes are lost and lives are ruined. That is reality.

Yet recovery is possible.

I know many good, honest people working programs in real-life as well as read posts of some who do here on SR. Yes, statistically, most do not find recovery. - that is a realization I have come to terms with.

For me, today I know I can not live with an active addict. This has meant I have had to move out, then he moved out. Now, I am willing to try again. I'm not holding my breath for some miracle - I am acting responsibly with what I know today and what I am willing to accept in my life today.

Just a thought on this.....my AH does dread his using - he is very hard on himself for his relapses - so much so that he is willing to pick himself up and try again.

I won't detract from ananda's thread anymore....I believe it was a valid question.

bluejay6

I agree. Relapse is devastating for an addict who wants to recover.

Someone who isn't ready to quit, though, will want the drug more than anything else in the world.

DesertEyes

Welcome, ananda, I'm glad you decided to join us

I am currently living with a charming young lady who is having a very difficult time maintaining her program of recovery in the program of OA. She has serious heart problems and about a year ago ended up in the ER due to a relapse. She's trying very hard, but not making much progress.

The tools I use are pretty simple. Lots of meetings. Go out to dinner with my sponsor every week (step 10). Sponsor two guys and see them every week. Lots of meetings. Volunteer here on SR ( my health sucks and I can't get out as much as I'd like ) Have a comitment at one of my meets so I can be of service (step 12). Pray and meditate every day (step 11) Have a subscription to the "Forum" and read every word in it. Share a little bit at every meeting. Arrive early and leave late so I can participate in the fellowship.

Pretty basic, but it works for me

Absolutely not out of line. We are here to help each other make our _own_ decisions, instead of allowing others to make them for us. Whatever decision you make, and however many times you change your mind, we are here to support you.

Mike

MissFixit

Ananda,

I did try to stay. I put up boundaries. They were crossed. We split.

Miss

hope2bhappy

Just an additional thought on this comment... In my AH's case, it wasn't actually that he wasn't ready to quit, it was more that he didn't know how and didn't think he could, so he simply gave up even entertaining the thought that things could ever be different for him. At least, that is what he says.

My story is one of the miracles (so far). My AH has been sober almost 2 1/2 years now - no slips, no relapses.

There's no easy way of staying. All the alanon meetings and tools in the world won't make you numb to the pain or immune to the problems. You just have to find what works for you.

I think the way I was able to stay in the alcoholic marriage is the same way I'm able to stay in the sober one. I love my solitude and I'm very independent. Before, he was absent due to the drinking, and now he is absent due to staying sober. He is constantly at an AA meeting. Every single day. Twice (sometimes 3 times) a day on the weekends. He's at one right now. It works for him, therefore, it works for me.

I have no regrets about staying in the marriage -- though I had plenty at the time when he was actively drinking. He made it easy to stay, because he is such a likable person and a good husband.

There was so much emotional turmoil during the drinking days, that I had no real clarity. Now that the dust has settled, there is a question that comes to my mind: What does it say about me, that I chose to stay in such a relationship? Only a dysfunctional person can weather the storm of an alcoholic marriage, because a truly healthy person will not stay. My story - my opinion.

Good luck to you.

resentful wife

IMHO There is a world of difference between living safely and sanely with an active A and living and feeling loved, cherished, and respected with an active A.

Linda

cmc

Hiya nands!
It's great to see you over here, I'm so glad you decided to share and ask about what's on your mind.
At times- I have done this and remained intact and serene- but most times when the other person or persons were active I was not able to interact according to our status quo of how things are when there's sobriety.

On the other hand-- I've known of many people with many years of experience who do make this choice and say they are living well in spite of those circumstances. I meet these folks in Al-Anon. Some are still in transition towards getting free and there are those few who appear content. The point is really more...am _I_ able to do this? At what cost?

The thing that sticks out in my mind the most about your question is: How will this affect you personally...ie especially in regards to your own recovery? I'm thinking of course of that old adage about putting on an oxygen mask to save myself first.

I do realize that this adage doesn't exactly apply to your question but the idea is to protect _me_ as my first priority and all else comes second.

Ananda

yeah i've been doing some thinking about whats been said here.

I guess that as a recycled drunk myself, i know that alchoholism is an ilness and despite best efforts....we don't always make the goal of perfect and forever sobriety.

The significant relationships i have in my life with people who drink is with people who are still trying to come to terms with their illness and how to stay sober. They are on the path...just not perfect.

They add to my life in a million ways that I couldn't even begin to describe and I wouldn't give up that joy for anything at the moment.

But i do struggle with loosing my balance...with what is providing support and where i cross the line and begin to try to manage their recovery...and of course loose track of looking at my own recovery and what i need to do.

So no...I really can't see that I will ever ex all the alchoholics active or inactive out of my life....i think i would really miss the trip...

I'm thinking detaching in it's truest form is not really about not caring or even really being emotionally distant...i have some since of what it is, but am struggling to make this all work for me.

Lots of good been said here...and I am taking to heart what I can do to enjoy the wonderful things people bring into my life without going wako cause i can't controll them.

My father died still active and my brother is in and out of his addcition on a fairly regular basis. My son is an active alchoholic in the early stages who lives at home with me....I have reached a point where 95% of the time I am perfectly comfortable in enjoying their lives with them...I really truley have....but i need to bring that same feeling to other relationships I currenlty have and am finding it much harder to do..course it took 40 years to find happyness in my relationship with my father, and about 5 to find a way to be content in my relationship with my son...and i guess about 10 to get comfortable with my brother finding his own way...

Any how thanks again and i hope to come here more often and have found some people via this thread that i think i may be able to work on one on one some on my particualr problem areas

thanks.

Freedom1990

That is a difficult area, and I find I can loose my balance very easily in regular contact with people who are not well.

I can make life as difficult as I want for myself, and as I stated earlier, I tend to hang with other healthy people (ie, those in active recovery). It's just worked so much better for me, and I'm not having to add struggling to keep balanced on top of just plain daily life!

ReadyToHelp

WOW. That was profound.

And sadly enough, it's true. I've grown so much, even while in this relationship, and I'm sorry to say...I'll have to do what I learned from my old network marketing training days:

I have to leave him where he is.
"After all, who wants to drag anyone across the finish line?"

(Those are two lines that have helped me get from unwavering enabler to razor sharp focused to get out...along with the b.s. he's been piling up - it's like he's arguing against his own case! Without all of the b.s., I would have stood by him and held his hand at every AA meeting in the world! That would have been hard to do since he's said he will NOT go to AA meetings or rehab.)

Ready.