Turbulence at 6,000 ft!
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Turbulence at 6,000 ft!
So it’s been a turbulent month. Three weeks ago I told my AH that I didn’t want to live with his drinking anymore and asked him to move out if he feels unwilling to address it. He continues to deny that he has a drinking problem, says his behaviour is completely normal (2 or 3 binges a week, home between 1 and 4am) and that everyone will think I am a complete nutcase if he tells them he had to move out cos I think he is an A. Quack quack! He seems to be more worried about what other people will think than anything else.
Had another argument with him this afternoon – got sucked into his anger and hooked into the conversation and kept telling myself to stop and walk away. I was trying to get a timeline for when he will go – he says I have no right to ask him to move away from his children although he has NO desire to stay with me – and of course he won’t give me a time.
I feel so much turmoil inside and frankly I just want to curl up and say “Ok, let’s just forget it and be nice to each other again…” but I know I have to keep going on this path. Ugh, but it’s hard! I know I should be able to find peace and serenity by detaching while he is still here but I feel that it's out of my reach until I get him out of the house.
And how come my friends are always out of town on crisis weekends?!?!?! I am setting up an Al Anon group with others in similar situations, but everyone is away for the Easter holidays so we can’t meet until 22 April. Aaaaaaargh!
I am supposed to be working but lurking on SR instead!
(Oh, and regarding the title, in case you were wondering, we are 6,000 ft above sea level here...)
Had another argument with him this afternoon – got sucked into his anger and hooked into the conversation and kept telling myself to stop and walk away. I was trying to get a timeline for when he will go – he says I have no right to ask him to move away from his children although he has NO desire to stay with me – and of course he won’t give me a time.
I feel so much turmoil inside and frankly I just want to curl up and say “Ok, let’s just forget it and be nice to each other again…” but I know I have to keep going on this path. Ugh, but it’s hard! I know I should be able to find peace and serenity by detaching while he is still here but I feel that it's out of my reach until I get him out of the house.
And how come my friends are always out of town on crisis weekends?!?!?! I am setting up an Al Anon group with others in similar situations, but everyone is away for the Easter holidays so we can’t meet until 22 April. Aaaaaaargh!
I am supposed to be working but lurking on SR instead!
(Oh, and regarding the title, in case you were wondering, we are 6,000 ft above sea level here...)
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I agree with the quack, quack, quack assessment. His being an alcoholic or not is irrelevant. What matters is that you, and your children, are being affected in negative ways by his drinking/behavior. Who gives a s**t what any of his drunk friends think of it.
Of course, you know all of this already and that is a huge strength for you!!! You see the bulls**t before it even rolls off his tongue. Using the children as his excuse for not having to leave is just a manipulation. They, and you, are the very reason he has to leave!!
I'm sorry you got sucked into an argument with him. That has happened to me more often than I'd like with my ABF. I've started equating to dealing with him like when I used to do gymnastics on the balance beam. It takes concentration and focus to stay balanced, and sometimes you lose that and have to hop off, but if you're ever going to nail a routine you've got to shake it off quit, get back up there, and get focused.
So that's you. Shake it off quit and get back on. Run through your boundaries, what conversation will you tolerate from him, what behavior will you allow to remain in the room with him, and what are you going to say that will get your feet moving somewhere else when the quacking starts and you feel yourself getting sucked in. Run through the routine (big breath, step, turn, walk, walk, walk) until you can do it without even thinking about it.
Sorry about your group, too, but I'm happy to find you lurking.
Of course, you know all of this already and that is a huge strength for you!!! You see the bulls**t before it even rolls off his tongue. Using the children as his excuse for not having to leave is just a manipulation. They, and you, are the very reason he has to leave!!
I'm sorry you got sucked into an argument with him. That has happened to me more often than I'd like with my ABF. I've started equating to dealing with him like when I used to do gymnastics on the balance beam. It takes concentration and focus to stay balanced, and sometimes you lose that and have to hop off, but if you're ever going to nail a routine you've got to shake it off quit, get back up there, and get focused.
So that's you. Shake it off quit and get back on. Run through your boundaries, what conversation will you tolerate from him, what behavior will you allow to remain in the room with him, and what are you going to say that will get your feet moving somewhere else when the quacking starts and you feel yourself getting sucked in. Run through the routine (big breath, step, turn, walk, walk, walk) until you can do it without even thinking about it.
Sorry about your group, too, but I'm happy to find you lurking.
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Sorry for the madness but do do have te option to take control of your life and not leave it in the hands of an active alcoholic.
There are no "shoulds" in life. I couldn't detach and remain living with my AH. It was too much of a sham marriage for me to stay in. Those who can do it, well, it works for them. Those of us who cannot do it, well, it doesn't/didn't work for us.
I doubt your children are going to be able to detach from the madness. Most kids take responsibility for whatever living conditinos they are in, certainly blame themselves for it. I wonder how much continuing damage is being done to them as you wait to act?
I know I should be able to find peace and serenity by detaching while he is still here but I feel that it's out of my reach until I get him out of the house.
I doubt your children are going to be able to detach from the madness. Most kids take responsibility for whatever living conditinos they are in, certainly blame themselves for it. I wonder how much continuing damage is being done to them as you wait to act?
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That's a tough one Barbara. Some psychologists do say that living in a dysfunctional relationship can be better for children than having their family torn apart. While I do now feel that my husband is an alcoholic, he is a functioning one who has held down the same job for the last decade and his life is not falling apart...
My AH is a binge drinker who drinks outside of the home so our kids hardly ever see him drunk because they and I go to bed relatively early and on the nights when he is binge drinking he rolls in at whatever time and goes and sleeps in the guest room. So no doubt they see him hungover, they feel tension between their parents, they know mum gets stressed and so on, but they have a real and usually very happy relationship with their dad.
When he is not binge drinking (50 per cent of the time), he often comes home from work to play cricket or baseball with them or something else fun. He goes to their matches and their plays at school and he adores his children. So, while I understand what you are saying, I guess there are reasons why I am proceeding with caution and at this pace. I may have reached a point where I don't want to live with a man who binge drinks and is emotionally unavailable to me, but what I do affects the lives of my three precious children...
Does that make sense or are those the words of a raving codie?
My AH is a binge drinker who drinks outside of the home so our kids hardly ever see him drunk because they and I go to bed relatively early and on the nights when he is binge drinking he rolls in at whatever time and goes and sleeps in the guest room. So no doubt they see him hungover, they feel tension between their parents, they know mum gets stressed and so on, but they have a real and usually very happy relationship with their dad.
When he is not binge drinking (50 per cent of the time), he often comes home from work to play cricket or baseball with them or something else fun. He goes to their matches and their plays at school and he adores his children. So, while I understand what you are saying, I guess there are reasons why I am proceeding with caution and at this pace. I may have reached a point where I don't want to live with a man who binge drinks and is emotionally unavailable to me, but what I do affects the lives of my three precious children...
Does that make sense or are those the words of a raving codie?
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Originally Posted by JoBloggs 
My AH is a binge drinker who drinks outside of the home so our kids hardly ever see him drunk because they and I go to bed relatively early and on the nights when he is binge drinking he rolls in at whatever time and goes and sleeps in the guest room. So no doubt they see him hungover, they feel tension between their parents, they know mum gets stressed and so on, but they have a real and usually very happy relationship with their dad.
Originally Posted by JoBloggs
what I do affects the lives of my three precious children...
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: MO
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For many years I thought my kids didn't know the extent of their dad's drinking......they did. I thought I had hid it pretty well from their school and our family....I didn't. I think often the only people we are deceiving is ourselves. I didn't find out how transparent our problems were until I actually took action to file for a divorce and people started talking.
I have a little technique for the quacking my counselor taught me that has worked every time I remember to use it. When he starts in on the accusing (usually its about how he's "trying so hard" and I'm not) I look at him and say, "I can see how you might think that"........shuts him up EVERY time. I also enjoy the confused look on his face!
(((hugs))) to you, JoBloggs, hugs to you.
I have a little technique for the quacking my counselor taught me that has worked every time I remember to use it. When he starts in on the accusing (usually its about how he's "trying so hard" and I'm not) I look at him and say, "I can see how you might think that"........shuts him up EVERY time. I also enjoy the confused look on his face!
(((hugs))) to you, JoBloggs, hugs to you.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
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JoBloggs,
I have to second Barbara's comment. They know something is wrong and they are learning to deny that anything is wrong. That is only one of the many lessons on poor life skills learned in an alcoholic home.
I have to second Barbara's comment. They know something is wrong and they are learning to deny that anything is wrong. That is only one of the many lessons on poor life skills learned in an alcoholic home.
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I take your point Barbara and I know from my SR experience that you have alot of wisdom to impart.
I am trying to do my best at a pace I can deal with. A year and a bit ago I didn't even know what codependency was... so I will just keep going one day at a time and keep trying to do my best. I do always have my children's interests at the very centre of my heart. I am working with the knowledge and the tools that I have today... maybe they will be different knowledge and tools tomorrow.
Thanks for the hugs Blessed - needed that!
I try not to have my kids deny that something is wrong. I have talked to my eldest son who is just 10 about his dad's drinking, I have told him that I think dad has a problem with alcohol and that I am working on sorting things out. I am not sure how to talk to them about it without doing more damage than good, I don't want to over burden them and I don't want to bad-mouth their daddy - it's a dilemma and one that I would love advice on.
I am trying to do my best at a pace I can deal with. A year and a bit ago I didn't even know what codependency was... so I will just keep going one day at a time and keep trying to do my best. I do always have my children's interests at the very centre of my heart. I am working with the knowledge and the tools that I have today... maybe they will be different knowledge and tools tomorrow.
Thanks for the hugs Blessed - needed that!
I try not to have my kids deny that something is wrong. I have talked to my eldest son who is just 10 about his dad's drinking, I have told him that I think dad has a problem with alcohol and that I am working on sorting things out. I am not sure how to talk to them about it without doing more damage than good, I don't want to over burden them and I don't want to bad-mouth their daddy - it's a dilemma and one that I would love advice on.
Last edited by JoBloggs; 04-05-2009 at 02:22 PM. Reason: saw additional posts
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My dad was alcoholic, my mom codependent. I truly believe my mom did more damage to me as a child than my dad. He was usually gone, so I didn't see him drunk much. But, I saw my mom fretting and worrying, angry and sad all the time. My dad was fun, when he was around, but I couldn't count on him being around. My mom was around all the time, but she was mostly distracted. She swung between trying too hard to please him, to being angry. She often took out her anger on me and my siblings. He was always there affecting our relationship, even when he was gone. I learned from her to center my life around the whims of a drunk. It was always all about him, regardless of where he was or what he was doing. I grew up and fell right into the same role.
My children are so different now that AH is gone. They are relaxed and happy and know what to expect. They are open and honest about their feelings and willing to admit when something is wrong instead of stuffing it down. They are confident and self-assured. I hope the years they spent in a dysfunctional home don't come back to haunt them later in life. I am doing my best to change the pattern that has been in my family for untold generations.
L
My children are so different now that AH is gone. They are relaxed and happy and know what to expect. They are open and honest about their feelings and willing to admit when something is wrong instead of stuffing it down. They are confident and self-assured. I hope the years they spent in a dysfunctional home don't come back to haunt them later in life. I am doing my best to change the pattern that has been in my family for untold generations.
L
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JoBloggs,
We all have to proceed at our own pace, and congratulations on all the hard work you've done on yourself in the past year. It's hard, isn't it?
I might suggest that you fine-tune your senses to all the small signs & symptoms that your kids may be suffering from the stress of your relationship. Factor this into your decision making, rather than reaching to justify why you MUST stay (I know you're not, but in a way you are, if you re-read your posts, and I understand, believe me)
If you are truly doing this for them, then please also consider this: Look at your husband's behavior - what he does, how he acts, what he takes responsibility for, when & how often he disappears, etc. Look at your behavior: how happy/sad/passionless you are as you go about your daily business, how you engage with the world, what you tolerate.
If your sons were all to grow up mimicking everything about your husband, and daughters were to grow up mimicking everything about you, would you think you'd done your job as a parent well?
My parents stayed in their unhappy marriage "for the children" and out of "love." And you know what I learned from that?
1) Women are never happy. They have okay moments, but basically women aren't supposed to be happy, passionate about their lives. It just isn't normal.
2) Men disappear when they want to, and drink a lot, and act weird the next morning, and that's just fine with Mom, and therefore with me.
3) Parents fight, and even if they aren't fighting, it's obvious that they don't care for each other very much. That's what marriage is all about: teeth-gritting tolerance.
4) Men never had to take responsibility for hurting anyone. You just have to suck it up. Etc.
Look around you at your life - not what you THINK you're teaching them, but what you're REALLY teaching them by example. Is that what you want them to be when they reach adulthood? If not, factor that into your decisions of the coming weeks and months too.
You will be fine, Jo......just try to broaden your perspective and keep making steps in the right direction. I admire your candor with your son. :ghug
We all have to proceed at our own pace, and congratulations on all the hard work you've done on yourself in the past year. It's hard, isn't it?
I might suggest that you fine-tune your senses to all the small signs & symptoms that your kids may be suffering from the stress of your relationship. Factor this into your decision making, rather than reaching to justify why you MUST stay (I know you're not, but in a way you are, if you re-read your posts, and I understand, believe me)
If you are truly doing this for them, then please also consider this: Look at your husband's behavior - what he does, how he acts, what he takes responsibility for, when & how often he disappears, etc. Look at your behavior: how happy/sad/passionless you are as you go about your daily business, how you engage with the world, what you tolerate.
If your sons were all to grow up mimicking everything about your husband, and daughters were to grow up mimicking everything about you, would you think you'd done your job as a parent well?
My parents stayed in their unhappy marriage "for the children" and out of "love." And you know what I learned from that?
1) Women are never happy. They have okay moments, but basically women aren't supposed to be happy, passionate about their lives. It just isn't normal.
2) Men disappear when they want to, and drink a lot, and act weird the next morning, and that's just fine with Mom, and therefore with me.
3) Parents fight, and even if they aren't fighting, it's obvious that they don't care for each other very much. That's what marriage is all about: teeth-gritting tolerance.
4) Men never had to take responsibility for hurting anyone. You just have to suck it up. Etc.
Look around you at your life - not what you THINK you're teaching them, but what you're REALLY teaching them by example. Is that what you want them to be when they reach adulthood? If not, factor that into your decisions of the coming weeks and months too.
You will be fine, Jo......just try to broaden your perspective and keep making steps in the right direction. I admire your candor with your son. :ghug
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Some psychologists do say that living in a dysfunctional relationship can be better for children than having their family torn apart.
When I finally got up the courage and divorced my ex I was terrified of the effect on my kids, I mistakenly thought I was dooming them to a life of depression and low achievement and anger/blame/juvenile delinquancy etc.
So I read EVERY book written on divorce and children, and I got my rear end into therapy pronto and what I learned was that children suffer most from ongoing strife. Whether that strife takes place in an intact family or in a divorced family doesn't matter the bottom line is: if there is hostility between the parents it is very damaging for children.
And all of us here who grew up with an alcoholic parent can tell tales of the horrors and long-term suffering from that kind of strife!
So I found it was best for me to get the hell out of my lousy marriage, and work hard on creating a peaceful, warm, and consistent home life for my children, and let go of my expectations about my exH and who I wish he he could be....cuz he ain't.
Since I made peace with reality we have no hostility... (yes he drives me cuckoo sometimes because of the person he is and how he operates in this world, but I have tools to help me handle that stuff and not let it drive me to behave in ways that are harmful to me or my children...)
Yeah it's hard to walk away and go it alone - but not as hard as staying in the torture chamber of an unhealthy marriage!!! It isn't easy but it is worth it -- and no question it has been 100% healthier for my children to have divorced parents!!!
peace,
b
When I finally got up the courage and divorced my ex I was terrified of the effect on my kids, I mistakenly thought I was dooming them to a life of depression and low achievement and anger/blame/juvenile delinquancy etc.
So I read EVERY book written on divorce and children, and I got my rear end into therapy pronto and what I learned was that children suffer most from ongoing strife. Whether that strife takes place in an intact family or in a divorced family doesn't matter the bottom line is: if there is hostility between the parents it is very damaging for children.
And all of us here who grew up with an alcoholic parent can tell tales of the horrors and long-term suffering from that kind of strife!
So I found it was best for me to get the hell out of my lousy marriage, and work hard on creating a peaceful, warm, and consistent home life for my children, and let go of my expectations about my exH and who I wish he he could be....cuz he ain't.
Since I made peace with reality we have no hostility... (yes he drives me cuckoo sometimes because of the person he is and how he operates in this world, but I have tools to help me handle that stuff and not let it drive me to behave in ways that are harmful to me or my children...)
Yeah it's hard to walk away and go it alone - but not as hard as staying in the torture chamber of an unhealthy marriage!!! It isn't easy but it is worth it -- and no question it has been 100% healthier for my children to have divorced parents!!!
peace,
b
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Originally Posted by Bernadette
and no question it has been 100% healthier for my children to have divorced parents!!!
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Hi jobloggs & Blessed4x:
I've been divorced about 11 years now...so I cannot recall specific books - but give me a few days and I'll try to remember -- they were all library books, and there were lots of them- my library allowed 25 books max checkout at a time and I maxed out!!! I definitely remember a book by Judith Wallerstein as making a big impression on me....
Also- just like for an alcoholic it is not enough to just cut out the booze (the behavior remains - dry drunk) it was very very important for me to do some fearless and hard work on myself in therapy throughout the years following the divorce. Otherwise I was going to still be acting in my codie fashion and doing plenty-o-damage to my kids, even without the help of their father who I used to let send me into codependent orbit!
Plus it wasn't like their father died- so I had to develop some healthy ways of dealing with him that limited strife and encouraged a new healthier pattern of behavior on my part towards their father.
Yes, I had to figure out something that I could never figure out with him (hence the divorce!!) - I had to figure it out for myself and apply it to my behavior in relation to exH, because he has not changed one iota in 11 years.
This sh*t was not easy!!!!!!!!
But it just takes time and commitment and a little plan each day. There is no magic to it and I have never met a human being who I think would be incapable of doing this kind of work toward changing themselves -- if they desire change.
If I think of book names I'll start a thread or PM you guys-
good luck -
one foot in front of the other - one day at a time!
peace,
b
I've been divorced about 11 years now...so I cannot recall specific books - but give me a few days and I'll try to remember -- they were all library books, and there were lots of them- my library allowed 25 books max checkout at a time and I maxed out!!! I definitely remember a book by Judith Wallerstein as making a big impression on me....
Also- just like for an alcoholic it is not enough to just cut out the booze (the behavior remains - dry drunk) it was very very important for me to do some fearless and hard work on myself in therapy throughout the years following the divorce. Otherwise I was going to still be acting in my codie fashion and doing plenty-o-damage to my kids, even without the help of their father who I used to let send me into codependent orbit!
Plus it wasn't like their father died- so I had to develop some healthy ways of dealing with him that limited strife and encouraged a new healthier pattern of behavior on my part towards their father.
Yes, I had to figure out something that I could never figure out with him (hence the divorce!!) - I had to figure it out for myself and apply it to my behavior in relation to exH, because he has not changed one iota in 11 years.
This sh*t was not easy!!!!!!!!
But it just takes time and commitment and a little plan each day. There is no magic to it and I have never met a human being who I think would be incapable of doing this kind of work toward changing themselves -- if they desire change.
If I think of book names I'll start a thread or PM you guys-
good luck -
one foot in front of the other - one day at a time!
peace,
b
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: MO
Posts: 743
I hit the library today and came out with 5 that looked good. I see my counselor tomorrow. I'm armed and ready for all of the changes that are coming my way. I am trying to keep the perspective that this is the "struggle to get out of the cocoon", as my therapist calls it. I plan on emerging beautiful and ready to fly.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Posts: 65
Thanks for all your great posts.
LaTeeDa - He was always there affecting our relationship, even when he was gone. - that was very interesting for me... One of the things my counsellor told me was that even though I may protect my kids from actually seeing AH drunk, they will be affected by his absence and its effect on me.
I truly believe my mom did more damage to me as a child than my dad. I can understand that completely and I think that's the same in our household. I am with my kids most of the time so I am the one affecting them the most.
Give Love - I might suggest that you fine-tune your senses to all the small signs & symptoms that your kids may be suffering from the stress of your relationship. I will certainly try to do that. The biggest sign for me now is that I think my DS10 tries to look after me. He's often asking me if I am ok and putting his arms around me. I have talked to him about it and told him that I don't need him to look after me and that it's my job to look after him. Also, my DD3 shouts and scrunches up her face like an old fishwife when she doesn't get her own way, and I think she might be providing a good reflection of what I do! Ugh!
I don't think I am trying to justify why I have to stay with AH. I am on the move. I am resolved that if he doesn't stop drinking and get serious counselling then we must separate and I am following that through. (He is going to counselling but the drinking continues...). I have talked to a mediator and a lawyer, so I am on the move, just at my own pace.
Bernadette - There is no magic to it and I have never met a human being who I think would be incapable of doing this kind of work toward changing themselves -- if they desire change. Thanks! I am so glad to hear that. I am working on myself and hoping for great things!
Blessed - I plan on emerging beautiful and ready to fly. You go, girl!
:ghug
LaTeeDa - He was always there affecting our relationship, even when he was gone. - that was very interesting for me... One of the things my counsellor told me was that even though I may protect my kids from actually seeing AH drunk, they will be affected by his absence and its effect on me.
I truly believe my mom did more damage to me as a child than my dad. I can understand that completely and I think that's the same in our household. I am with my kids most of the time so I am the one affecting them the most.
Give Love - I might suggest that you fine-tune your senses to all the small signs & symptoms that your kids may be suffering from the stress of your relationship. I will certainly try to do that. The biggest sign for me now is that I think my DS10 tries to look after me. He's often asking me if I am ok and putting his arms around me. I have talked to him about it and told him that I don't need him to look after me and that it's my job to look after him. Also, my DD3 shouts and scrunches up her face like an old fishwife when she doesn't get her own way, and I think she might be providing a good reflection of what I do! Ugh!
I don't think I am trying to justify why I have to stay with AH. I am on the move. I am resolved that if he doesn't stop drinking and get serious counselling then we must separate and I am following that through. (He is going to counselling but the drinking continues...). I have talked to a mediator and a lawyer, so I am on the move, just at my own pace.
Bernadette - There is no magic to it and I have never met a human being who I think would be incapable of doing this kind of work toward changing themselves -- if they desire change. Thanks! I am so glad to hear that. I am working on myself and hoping for great things!
Blessed - I plan on emerging beautiful and ready to fly. You go, girl!
:ghug
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