FormerDoormat

I came home from work tonight to find my answering machine blinking. I hit the button and heard a voice from my past--way back to the days before I met Richard. It was a man I met on my first professional job out of high school. We dated briefly and not much came of it because I met Richard shortly thereafter and, well, you all know that story.

Anyway, since I'm a single gal now I thought I'd ring him back and see what's been happening in his life. He didn't leave his phone number, so I looked it up online, found several men with his name in the state where he last lived, so I chose one and dialed the number.

A woman answered so I told her I had the wrong number, apologized, and hung up. I had heard through the grapevine that he was still unmarried, so I tried a different number, then another. Finally, I had a light bulb moment and I hit *69, got a completely different number and rang his phone.

He answered and sounded pleased to hear from me. I told him about my difficulties with reaching him and he told me the first number I dialed was correct and his wife had answered the phone. I asked him if she was aware that he had called me. He said no, but she was home right now. I asked him where he was calling me from, he said the bedroom.

He immediately began to monopolize the conversation, asking only a few questions about me, then repeatedly interrupted me before I could answer his questions. He told me he had a fall the other day, broke his foot, and was laid up in bed with his foot in a cast. He'd heard that Richard had passed away, and thought he'd give me a call. I asked him what his Thanksgiving plans were and he said they were eating Thanksgiving dinner at a restaurant because, since he was home recooperating, it was his job to cook the turkey and get started on some of the side dishes. But he went on to say that he'd ruined several of the dishes because he'd poured himself several glasses of brandy, fell asleep, and they burned. I asked him how much he had to drink. He said, oh, you know, the usual 3-4 drinks. It was 4:00 pm when I called him.

I asked him where he was living. He said he was living in an apartment with his wife of 5 years. Back when we were dating, he was 20 years my senior. That would make him 68 today. So in a 10-minute phone conversation with him I learned that he was calling me without his wife's knowledge (but she was in the other room), he's a daily drinker and his drinking is problematic enough that he passed out and ruined his Thanksgiving dinner, that he likely fell and broke his foot also as a result of his drinking, that he's never owned a home of his own, and of all the people in his life he just happened to be thinking about me.

The good news is that today I'm able to see the red flags waving, so I wished him well, told him to enjoy his Thanksgiving dinner, and blocked his number.

And here I thought I became a codie as a result of Richard's drinking. Guess I was attractive to problem drinkers long before that, I just didn't recognize it then.

genrs123

thank you. i am 23 and have had less dating experience. i also dont know a red flag when i see it, but reading these posts really helps. i got a lot out of this.

thank you.

embraced2000

quite the sneaky one, isn't he? so i reckon he thought you should have been honored that he called you on the sly. isn't it wild how differently we view things now that we have been through a right of passage? a trial by fire? a hell on earth? (someone stop me!)

we sure have different ears now, don't we? at least i think i do. i thank my higher power all the time for the gift of red flags. he does his part by planting them in my brain....now all i have to do is my part by regarding the red flags.

sounds like he gave you some tonight, too. good girl. good girl.

FormerDoormat

Yep, Jeri, today I thank my higher power (and Minnie) for the gift of recognizing red flags.

Bet since he didn't score with me, he was right back on the phone dialing up the next gal on his list.

embraced2000

hey fd, where is minnie, by the way? she was always so right on about things.

FormerDoormat

She left the forum a while back. I miss her and learned so much from her. Luckily she left us with plenty of goodies in the form of stickies at the top of the forum.

embraced2000

oh. i will surely miss her. she is such a wealth of info and a certain jewel of a person.

FormerDoormat

I have her home e-mail. If you pass me your home e-mail via pm, I'll forward it on to her if you like.

kingston

ah, the ability to see the red flags and listen to our inner voice - what a gift! thanks for sharing, K.

historyteach

FD,
This is a valuable thread.
Yes, we do learn to pick up on the red flags after we've been through hell and back.
But, I personally wonder if *I* sometimes read too much into things too. I mean, there's got to be *some* men out there without drug, alcohol, gambling and/or sex addictions, right? But, those are the only ones I seem to meet! OY!
And I don't give married men a second look at all.
So, it's been a long time since I've had a second date.

Shalom!

denny57

Why continue the conversation after this point? I'd ask myself why, when he didn't leave a number I went looking for it. Why not wait for a call back, if any?

There are a lot of reasons 40 year old men date girls right out of high school and a lot of reasons young women date older men, none of which have to do with alcoholism.

I look at it differently because I don't believe in codie-ism.

Historyteach -there are a ton of men out there without addictions. I met them before xAH and after. Keep looking LOL!

miss communicat

Thanks for this thread. Its an ear-and-eye-opener.

I find myself so often, unconsciously, being polite to icky creepy situations that, after the fact, scream "red alert".

My "red alert" button seems to be stuck in delay mode. I understand it partly as my deeply ingrained desire for peace and accord with all people at all times, also called people pleasing. (Its not due to inexperience, that's for sure.)

The other day, I found myself nearly inviting a predator into my house. He was a delivery man, pinch hitting for the regular guy. He kept trying to come in, and was shmoozing me with way too much charm. At one point, I crossed from "social" mode into "red alert" mode, and shut the door.

Maybe you too, were just being socially superficial with this fellow, as a fact-finding mission on your personal self discovery path. No harm done and LOTS of great awarenesses gained.

prodigal

I don't know if I "believe" in codie-ism, as such. However, our proclivities to hook up with addicts in a relationship, "attract" them, and continue in the relationship long after it's become painful and growth-stunting ... well, why not call it codependency? It seems like a logical term for our problem. The addict is dependent on the substance-of-choice; we are dependent on fixing the addict, becoming enmeshed with the addict, hanging in there with the addicts in hope he or she will see the light and "get better." Thus, a system of co-depdendency.

Denny, if you don't believe in codie-ism, what terminology or point of view do you apply to it? I'd be interested to know.

denny57

Alright, but this is JUST MY OPINION - LOL!!!

I think when my life becomes enmeshed with an addict and I am living in reaction to another's addiction, that is co-dependency. I'm not a fan of the whole codependency movement separate from an addiction. I do think it helped sell an awful lot of self-help books. I think a lot of the behaviors are learned and when the two worlds collide all hell breaks loose.

I base my view of the "codie movement" on what is discussed about it. I haven't been much of a people pleaser all my life. I've pretty much always spoken my mind and taken care of myself. I'm perfectly fine living alone and I never jumped from relationship to relationship. Even xAH (until the last few years of the marriage) said I was the least controlling person he ever met.

When I first met xAH, I didn't see someone who needed to be fixed (though I can look back now and realize he was alcoholic when I met him - although nowhere near as sick as he became 10-15 years down the road). I first pursued that relationship for, among other reasons, a dream/fantasy I had of living the life of 2 artists.

I guess it boils down to that I see alcoholism as a life-long disease that can be arrested and co-dependency as learned behavior that can be changed.

Ok, I'm boring myself here LOL so I'll stop.

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving - mine was fabulous but I ate too much.

Barbara52

I think I agree with you. I find now that I have some understanding of codependency, I can see where I learned the behaviors that fit that label. And for me they are learned behaviors that I am becoming increasing aware of when they happen and increasingly capable of nipping inthe bud. The times when codie behaviors surface are also lessening. I think I am becoming more successful at using new learned behaviors that are healthier. For me, the awareness of what is a codie behavior lets me overwrite it with a new behavior. Awareness seems to be the key.

Silverberry1331

Hi FD!

So glad that you wrote this thread! I have been reading alot lately, but not posting so much because I am in the midst of term papers. HOWEVER...I had to write! Amazing how these root pre-date and how they carry through afterward.

Yesterday, I went to thanksgiving dinner. A VERY VERY attractive man was there. Going for his MBA, intelligent, easy going. We chatted about this and that. I felt an instant attraction. Right away, I saw the red flag. Through the entire afternoon and evening (2pm to 10pm), he drank whiskey...wasn't nursing it either. He never got intoxicated, but this was a sign to me. Again, my codie roots draws me to the one who drinks too much. I am so glad I recognized that...after a pleasant afternoon, he asked if he could get my phone number. I told him that I was going through a divorce and wasn't ready for that..thanks anyway.

I think of my codependency as a dandilion...if I don't nip it in when it first comes up...it will sprout all over recovery field!

Hugs!

FormerDoormat

He asked me to return his call; he said he assumed I had caller ID. Initially, he said he was calling upon hearing the news that Richard had passed away. Seemed innocent to me. I thought he was interested in details about Richard's death. Once I realized he was interested in something else, I ended the call.

I'm curious why you asked me these questions. What am I supposed to learn from my answers to your questions?

Jazzman

I agree. Funny how the other day I was in a parent teacher meeting with my 1st ex wife (S) and I asked for a pen to write my email down for the teacher. S wrote down my email and gave it to the teacher and I said... I could have done that. She laughed because we were there due to my sons behavior, who S does EVERYTHING for. We have talked to death about letting people do for themselves and believe me S never had a codie bone in her body until the relationship dynamic "evolved" between her and my youngest son. She'll be the first to admit she baby's that boy and it has a lot to do with why we seem to always be in parent teacher meetings! Ugh!

I guess I'm trying to say that unhealthy relationship dynamics can sprout at any given time between any given combination of people.

And... I miss Minnie too. She was a wealth of wisdom here and had a lot to offer people looking for strength, even if her occasional spirited opinions rubbed a Mod wrong once or twice.

Wascally Wabbit

clap-clap-clap-clap!
It's a good thing we do wake up and pay attention to those red flags. Sometimes those flags don't show up for a while though.
After my divorce, I met a man who I thought was sent directly from heaven. He was just awesome in every way. He fell madly in love with me and within 2 weeks of knowing him, asked me to marry him. I was tremendously flattered! Woo hoo! Someone wanted me after all! He treated me like a queen.
But, after a few months, he quit his job. He got another and quit it too. Before a year was up he had 9 different jobs, no health insurance and no savings, home or anything else. I also disover he's in debt up to his eyeballs and behind on child support.
So, I had to wake up and smell the coffee. I knew why he was so desperate to get married. He needed insurance, he needed someone to help him pay off his debt.

I became dis enchanted with him. I realized what he was all about. I told him I didn't want to marry him, and lets part our ways as friends.
He was after all a very nice person.

He called me every day just to talk. Even though I didn't see him any more, it was nice to talk to him. He had again quit a job and found another.
Next thing I know, I didn't hear from him, and his cell had been cut off.
I wondered what happened to him.
Well, I find out that he met someone online in a foreign country.
She paid for a trip to the US to meet him, paid for his ticket back to her country where they got married, then paid his child support and paid most of his bills.
They wound up coming back to the US. She paid for everything. Mind you, she was 54 yrs old. She had a good job in her country, and had saved up a lot of money for retirement.

Fast forward one year. She leaves him. She is completely broke. She moves back to her country with nothing.

That could have been me if I had not really gotten past the charm and wit.

Im glad you were able to see through this guy in just one phone call!!

denny57

FD, I asked MYSELF those questions. What I learned when I did something similar was that I still had things to work out.