View Poll Results: The steps and relapses
I do not know a single person who has worked the steps entirely who are chronic relapsers.
34.29%
In my area almost every single chronic relapser has never worked the steps with a sponsor.
40.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll
Relapse & the steps. POLL
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Relapse & the steps. POLL
Well I just wanted to see if my experience in regards to relapses in my area is the same as other folks.
In the alcoholism forum someone stated:
I know for a fact in my area that people who have worked the steps with a sponsor are not chronic relapsers. Yes there are people who have worked the steps and relapsed, but in my area they are few and far between and none of them are chronic relapsers.
Either my area is an anomoly of AA or where this person is at is an anomoly of AA.
Please answer the poll to where I can determine if my area of the country is an anomoly or not.
You can answer yes to more then one question!!!!
In the alcoholism forum someone stated:
I listened to people who had been attending meetings for years and continuously pick up there white chip...I was baffled. They came to aa, utilized the support group, worked the steps but drank anyway
Either my area is an anomoly of AA or where this person is at is an anomoly of AA.
Please answer the poll to where I can determine if my area of the country is an anomoly or not.
You can answer yes to more then one question!!!!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
Taz, you know i think some of this is about focus...we tend to see what we want to see and not see what we don't want to see....also, some meetings are not very open to relaspsers...the door is always open, but the physical door can be open and the emotional, mind etc. can be closed. So which meetings I attend does make a difference in what i will see as well.
Just some input
Just some input
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 2,060
Hi Taz,
Interesting poll. I started to answer it, but then stopped because I am not in a position to determine who has or has not "worked the steps entirely". It simply is not possible for me to know the entirety of another person's inner growth.
I suppose it also feels as if I'd have to be so intimate with these others as to know their inventories, which I cannot.
All the rest is wild conjecture or speculation on my part, and it would feel counterproductive to my own program to look this way towards my fellows.
I get that you are raising the poll for the purposes of raising more food for thought, so, this is my contribution.
Good luck. i will be curious to see how it goes..
Interesting poll. I started to answer it, but then stopped because I am not in a position to determine who has or has not "worked the steps entirely". It simply is not possible for me to know the entirety of another person's inner growth.
I suppose it also feels as if I'd have to be so intimate with these others as to know their inventories, which I cannot.
All the rest is wild conjecture or speculation on my part, and it would feel counterproductive to my own program to look this way towards my fellows.
I get that you are raising the poll for the purposes of raising more food for thought, so, this is my contribution.
Good luck. i will be curious to see how it goes..
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South Georgia
Posts: 63
Being still somewhat of a newcomer, I have no idea who has worked all 12 steps and who has not.
I do know that I've heard from many people that their first time in AA, they did not get involved in AA, did not get a sponsor, and did not work the steps.. many of these people had 9m-1year.. but ended up going back out b/c they were not working the steps and did not have a sponsor.
Probably at least 1/4 of the group I go to have been in treatment 5 or more times, but I have no idea how far any of them got on the steps, or how far they currently are.
I do know that I've heard from many people that their first time in AA, they did not get involved in AA, did not get a sponsor, and did not work the steps.. many of these people had 9m-1year.. but ended up going back out b/c they were not working the steps and did not have a sponsor.
Probably at least 1/4 of the group I go to have been in treatment 5 or more times, but I have no idea how far any of them got on the steps, or how far they currently are.
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
First, I'm an anal nit. And that part of me needs to know how you define, "entirely," and "chronic relapser."
In the past, I had worked all 12 steps with a sponsor and had relapsed. Did I work them entirely? I did all 12, to the best of my ability at the time. And I relapsed. Was I a chronic relapser? Not sure.
When it comes to working the steps, I've heard two schools of thought. One being that many (if not all steps) need only be done once. This is the minority in my experience, but I've met those who do this. The other is that you never stop step work. I try to always be working on a step. At the moment, I'm working on another step 8.
I'm of the belief that step work is never finished. Thus, working the steps "entirely" isn't possible. My sponsor put it to me this way: whenever hearing of a relapse, ask that person what step they were working on at the time of the relapse. It's a trick question. They weren't working on a step at the time. That was certainly true for me. Even though I had been through all 12 steps with a sponsor...
In the past, I had worked all 12 steps with a sponsor and had relapsed. Did I work them entirely? I did all 12, to the best of my ability at the time. And I relapsed. Was I a chronic relapser? Not sure.
When it comes to working the steps, I've heard two schools of thought. One being that many (if not all steps) need only be done once. This is the minority in my experience, but I've met those who do this. The other is that you never stop step work. I try to always be working on a step. At the moment, I'm working on another step 8.
I'm of the belief that step work is never finished. Thus, working the steps "entirely" isn't possible. My sponsor put it to me this way: whenever hearing of a relapse, ask that person what step they were working on at the time of the relapse. It's a trick question. They weren't working on a step at the time. That was certainly true for me. Even though I had been through all 12 steps with a sponsor...
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
What I base my experience on the shares of those with long term sobriety the majority of them share of how the steps help them in life.
I also base it on those who relapse and come back.
Those who had worked the steps and relapsed have shared that they relapsed when they quit applying the steps in thier lifes, quit staying in touch with thier sponsors, lost conscience contact with thier higher power and quit going to meetings.
Many others who share after a relapse said they were going to work the steps because simply going to meetings had not kept them sober.
I have yet to hear a chronic relapser share that they had worked the steps over and over again, most of them share that they quit coming to meetings.
What I am basing my experience on is what I have heard shared, not simple speculation.
Does just working the steps assure long term sobriety? Not from what I have heard shared by those with long term sobriety.
I also base it on those who relapse and come back.
Those who had worked the steps and relapsed have shared that they relapsed when they quit applying the steps in thier lifes, quit staying in touch with thier sponsors, lost conscience contact with thier higher power and quit going to meetings.
Many others who share after a relapse said they were going to work the steps because simply going to meetings had not kept them sober.
I have yet to hear a chronic relapser share that they had worked the steps over and over again, most of them share that they quit coming to meetings.
What I am basing my experience on is what I have heard shared, not simple speculation.
Does just working the steps assure long term sobriety? Not from what I have heard shared by those with long term sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
I probably would have answered differently if the verb "work" was not used in the past tense.
I don't know many who have relapsed while actively working the steps - which for me is continous. When someone who had long-term sobriety (I think over 15 years) has returned to active alcoholism, usually they are the first to admit that they drifted away from the daily work, weren't working with newcomers.
Failure to continously enlarge or attempt to enlarge their spiritual lives...
I don't know many who have relapsed while actively working the steps - which for me is continous. When someone who had long-term sobriety (I think over 15 years) has returned to active alcoholism, usually they are the first to admit that they drifted away from the daily work, weren't working with newcomers.
Failure to continously enlarge or attempt to enlarge their spiritual lives...
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
I didn't vote, either. I almost did - but I realized I could not answer with certainty about another person and his or her program. So, instead, I'll offer my opinion.
There are a few key words and phrases that were emphasized to me and that I emphasize to others I work. I believe they are the difference between a successful program and a half-measures program. They are:
Step 3: Made a decision...
This step is often given lip service, though the BB tells us to think well before taking it. Although I've seen folks ready to take steps one through three in an afternoon, I've also heard folks with five or six years since their last drink admit that they still have not committed to that decision. Without it, even if a searching and fearless moral inventory is committed to paper, even if it is shared with God and another human being, there's a log jam ahead.
Step 6: Were entirely ready...
I've come to see step six as the extension of step three. If I haven't made a decision, how can I possibly be entirely ready to have my moral inventory cleansed and re-arranged by my HP? There's some serious faith necessary in this step. I have to believe that my needs will be provided for in some other way than what I've been doing all these years.
Step 10: Continued...
This implies the circular nature of the steps. They don't end once formal step work ends. They have become part of my life - my guide for living. If I have taken this completely into my heart, I always have a tool in my hands (heart) to deal with what's in front of me, therefore - how is relapse possible?
Step 11: praying only for knowledge...
If the prayers I pray for myself are for any other reason than to make me a more useful and purposeful person (see the 7th step prayer), if my prayers become dominated with self-centeredness, then I'm not doing an 11th step. Any prayer is not an eleventh step. Those prayers for knowledge of God's will are 11th step prayers. And, remember - we're praying for knowledge, not a magic wink that will eliminate the need for our effort.
Step 12: spiritual awakening, the result of these steps, carry this message, practice these principles in all our affairs (lots here!)
If my thoughts and feelings are not different when I begin the 12th step (had a spiritual awakening, a psychic change), I need to look backward and make sure that I took all of the steps, not just gave them lip service. Then I need to ask myself: am I a different person outside the rooms than I am inside? If so, see above.
I personally could not imagine taking a drink today. If I started screening my calls, choosing not to take a newcomer call or avoid the corrections chair who needs someone to go to the jail or decide that my attendance at my home group is not important, I don't know how long that would be so. If I decided that telling a few lies to my family, friends or employer might be beneficial, I have a feeling it would start to dig at me. If I avoid prayer on a particularly troublesome situation in my life, preferring instead to barrel through it on my own will, I can't remain happy or serene for very long.
I've heard people say they were nonplussed, that they'd worked the steps and still relapsed, but if those folks give getting sober again another shot, they usually point to a step they glossed over or a time when complacency set it. If there's any reason that someone should maintain a sponsor-sponsee relationship beyond formal step work, it's to guard against these these things.
Sorry if this was a diversion from the original topic.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
There are a few key words and phrases that were emphasized to me and that I emphasize to others I work. I believe they are the difference between a successful program and a half-measures program. They are:
Step 3: Made a decision...
This step is often given lip service, though the BB tells us to think well before taking it. Although I've seen folks ready to take steps one through three in an afternoon, I've also heard folks with five or six years since their last drink admit that they still have not committed to that decision. Without it, even if a searching and fearless moral inventory is committed to paper, even if it is shared with God and another human being, there's a log jam ahead.
Step 6: Were entirely ready...
I've come to see step six as the extension of step three. If I haven't made a decision, how can I possibly be entirely ready to have my moral inventory cleansed and re-arranged by my HP? There's some serious faith necessary in this step. I have to believe that my needs will be provided for in some other way than what I've been doing all these years.
Step 10: Continued...
This implies the circular nature of the steps. They don't end once formal step work ends. They have become part of my life - my guide for living. If I have taken this completely into my heart, I always have a tool in my hands (heart) to deal with what's in front of me, therefore - how is relapse possible?
Step 11: praying only for knowledge...
If the prayers I pray for myself are for any other reason than to make me a more useful and purposeful person (see the 7th step prayer), if my prayers become dominated with self-centeredness, then I'm not doing an 11th step. Any prayer is not an eleventh step. Those prayers for knowledge of God's will are 11th step prayers. And, remember - we're praying for knowledge, not a magic wink that will eliminate the need for our effort.
Step 12: spiritual awakening, the result of these steps, carry this message, practice these principles in all our affairs (lots here!)
If my thoughts and feelings are not different when I begin the 12th step (had a spiritual awakening, a psychic change), I need to look backward and make sure that I took all of the steps, not just gave them lip service. Then I need to ask myself: am I a different person outside the rooms than I am inside? If so, see above.
I personally could not imagine taking a drink today. If I started screening my calls, choosing not to take a newcomer call or avoid the corrections chair who needs someone to go to the jail or decide that my attendance at my home group is not important, I don't know how long that would be so. If I decided that telling a few lies to my family, friends or employer might be beneficial, I have a feeling it would start to dig at me. If I avoid prayer on a particularly troublesome situation in my life, preferring instead to barrel through it on my own will, I can't remain happy or serene for very long.
I've heard people say they were nonplussed, that they'd worked the steps and still relapsed, but if those folks give getting sober again another shot, they usually point to a step they glossed over or a time when complacency set it. If there's any reason that someone should maintain a sponsor-sponsee relationship beyond formal step work, it's to guard against these these things.
Sorry if this was a diversion from the original topic.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
Originally Posted by ananda 
Taz, you know i think some of this is about focus...we tend to see what we want to see and not see what we don't want to see....also, some meetings are not very open to relaspsers...the door is always open, but the physical door can be open and the emotional, mind etc. can be closed. So which meetings I attend does make a difference in what i will see as well.
Just some input
Just some input
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
Originally Posted by RufusACanal
Taz,
Where did the original comment come from?
Where did the original comment come from?
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
Thanks Sugah and too true. No, I was wondering for whatever reason Taz felt that this thread would better serve in the 12 Step Forum rather than the Alcoholism Forum. I would think that the ESH might help those new folks. No big deal, just a stray thought.
Another Long Rookie Thread...
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 76
I am a chronic relapser. I've been trying to stop drinking, off and on, for more than 10 years.
Last summer, I hit new bottoms and finally opened my mind to AA after years of pushing the solution away.
Yet, I've relapsed a number of times since becoming an AA guy. The first time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The second time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The third time...you get the picture. Coincidence? We think not
My experience is that I have to thoroughly follow this program and do more than I see others doing. If I don't act on that awareness, I'm in trouble. That has been proven to me over and over and over again.
Last summer, I hit new bottoms and finally opened my mind to AA after years of pushing the solution away.
Yet, I've relapsed a number of times since becoming an AA guy. The first time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The second time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The third time...you get the picture. Coincidence? We think not
My experience is that I have to thoroughly follow this program and do more than I see others doing. If I don't act on that awareness, I'm in trouble. That has been proven to me over and over and over again.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by RufusACanal
Thanks Sugah and too true. No, I was wondering for whatever reason Taz felt that this thread would better serve in the 12 Step Forum rather than the Alcoholism Forum. I would think that the ESH might help those new folks. No big deal, just a stray thought.
'55 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 637
Neat poll. However, may I interject a thought at this point? Mind you it is just a thought . . .
I noticed “mrhodes01" reply and what caught my attention the most is the fact that he showed great honesty regarding his past failings. It has been my experience in working with chronic relapsers that they have not reached that point, yet. They are not willing to go to any lengths and they haven’t the capacity to be honest when looking at themselves, YET. They tend to be incapable of recognizing a “reservation” in their attitude when practicing the program. Some of them still have the belief that “I can only stay sober if . . .” and they add the necessary reservation criteria to the end of that statement. (BTW my definition of “reservations” are “excuses to fail.”) Most of us at one time or another tended to keep that ace in the hole to fall back on when the going got too rough. But in the Big Book it has the part that goes something like this, “. . . Job or no job–wife or no wife–we simple do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.” (Quote credited to the First Edition.) And when we go to the fall back position we are NOT throughly following the path and the path is the principles set down in this program which includes, but not limited to, the Steps.
What I’m trying to say here is that some of these chronic relapsers haven’t developed the capacity to be honest with themselves much less with anyone else and therefore they may tell you that they have been working the Steps and that the Steps didn’t work so they couldn’t stop drinking. Is it a true statement? In a way, yes, it is. But just as correct is the answer, no, it isn’t. So, there you are . . . once again you cannot get a totally correct interpretation of the facts because we are dealing with a situation where people are involved and we can't read what's in their minds or hearts. How many times have you heard people tell in their story, “I was as honest as I could be at that moment?” I know what that's like because I’ve been there. Although I have only one sobriety date, I still had to grow in the program and so did my awareness of the meaning of honesty, total honesty. (One lesson I had to learn about was lying by omission. That one was a booger-boo.) The result was that my first Fourth and Fifth Step didn’t cover all the bases and I had to do another one (or two). The difference was that I had developed a new sense of what it means to be honest.
So, like I said, it’s a neat poll and I’m interested to see the final tally. To sum up my thoughts though, let me share with you a statement I heard my sponsor make. “No one gets here by mistake, but some of us get here a little bit too early.”
I noticed “mrhodes01" reply and what caught my attention the most is the fact that he showed great honesty regarding his past failings. It has been my experience in working with chronic relapsers that they have not reached that point, yet. They are not willing to go to any lengths and they haven’t the capacity to be honest when looking at themselves, YET. They tend to be incapable of recognizing a “reservation” in their attitude when practicing the program. Some of them still have the belief that “I can only stay sober if . . .” and they add the necessary reservation criteria to the end of that statement. (BTW my definition of “reservations” are “excuses to fail.”) Most of us at one time or another tended to keep that ace in the hole to fall back on when the going got too rough. But in the Big Book it has the part that goes something like this, “. . . Job or no job–wife or no wife–we simple do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.” (Quote credited to the First Edition.) And when we go to the fall back position we are NOT throughly following the path and the path is the principles set down in this program which includes, but not limited to, the Steps.
What I’m trying to say here is that some of these chronic relapsers haven’t developed the capacity to be honest with themselves much less with anyone else and therefore they may tell you that they have been working the Steps and that the Steps didn’t work so they couldn’t stop drinking. Is it a true statement? In a way, yes, it is. But just as correct is the answer, no, it isn’t. So, there you are . . . once again you cannot get a totally correct interpretation of the facts because we are dealing with a situation where people are involved and we can't read what's in their minds or hearts. How many times have you heard people tell in their story, “I was as honest as I could be at that moment?” I know what that's like because I’ve been there. Although I have only one sobriety date, I still had to grow in the program and so did my awareness of the meaning of honesty, total honesty. (One lesson I had to learn about was lying by omission. That one was a booger-boo.) The result was that my first Fourth and Fifth Step didn’t cover all the bases and I had to do another one (or two). The difference was that I had developed a new sense of what it means to be honest.
So, like I said, it’s a neat poll and I’m interested to see the final tally. To sum up my thoughts though, let me share with you a statement I heard my sponsor make. “No one gets here by mistake, but some of us get here a little bit too early.”
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
I have never seen a alcoholic relapse who has been really involved in a home group and took the steps and stayed with them.I am one of those who think it is impossible,unless you stretch the steps out over a extremely long period of time,or change them to suit their wants.
I have seen a great many relapse who just attended meetings and some even dabbled in the first few steps a little....most of them do relapse around my parts...
I have seen a great many relapse who just attended meetings and some even dabbled in the first few steps a little....most of them do relapse around my parts...
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
I didn't vote because I can not speak for anyone else's recovery, only my own. I have no idea of how diligently or throughly someone else worked their program.
For myself, I came into AA and never worked the steps. I relapsed twice. I have not taken or wanted a drink since I worked the steps. Personally, I think the steps are key.
For myself, I came into AA and never worked the steps. I relapsed twice. I have not taken or wanted a drink since I worked the steps. Personally, I think the steps are key.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Working the steps did not get me sober, the power of God rendered me sober. Before that I was a chronic relapser. I was six months away from a drink when I took the steps. The steps got me in touch with what got me sober. Making this a way of life keeps me touch with what keeps me sober, so therefore I don't believe it is a matter of me having worked the steps being the reason I am sober today. Like sugErspun said, it isn't about what I did seventeen years ago. I many who have worked the steps, but are drunk now as I type this. That is the reason I didn't vote either. There are no clearcut, black & white answers.
One thing to consider with chronic relapsers is that alcoholism can compounded by other mental illnesses and I know many who, unless they get treatment for whatever form of mental illness they suffer from that the steps don't work for. There are many variables here. When you throw in things like drug addiction along with the many social problems that come along with alcoholism, drug addiction, and mental illness, you can never say who will get sober and who won't. One thing I do know to be true though is that if a person has the capacity to honestly face him or herself and get in touch with the truely hopeless nature of acoholism, that person can recover.
Jim
One thing to consider with chronic relapsers is that alcoholism can compounded by other mental illnesses and I know many who, unless they get treatment for whatever form of mental illness they suffer from that the steps don't work for. There are many variables here. When you throw in things like drug addiction along with the many social problems that come along with alcoholism, drug addiction, and mental illness, you can never say who will get sober and who won't. One thing I do know to be true though is that if a person has the capacity to honestly face him or herself and get in touch with the truely hopeless nature of acoholism, that person can recover.
Jim
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Taz
Your poll seems to say...Work the steps and things are ok from then on.
I have found a relapse happens when I don't use the steps....Daily.
Let a little slide here, a little slide there and before I know it..I am starting up my old behaviors again. If I don't stop the slide down the slope fast, a relapse could be right around the corner.
Use the steps daily in all parts of my life and I will never need worry about a relapse. The steps are a way of life that keeps joy in my life no matter the storm that comes my way.
Your poll seems to say...Work the steps and things are ok from then on.
I have found a relapse happens when I don't use the steps....Daily.
Let a little slide here, a little slide there and before I know it..I am starting up my old behaviors again. If I don't stop the slide down the slope fast, a relapse could be right around the corner.
Use the steps daily in all parts of my life and I will never need worry about a relapse. The steps are a way of life that keeps joy in my life no matter the storm that comes my way.
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