Apolla

My husband relapsed 5 weeks ago. It was a big one. We are living separately.

I went out today had a great lunch with a friend, walking, talking, shopping - fully enjoying the day even though my married life is in a very rocky spot. I've released him and also the outcome.

I was thinking about all of these posts and this forum on my way home. Lots of frustration, worry, rage, fear. RIGHTFULLY so.

What seems to be missing in the midst of all of this anger, frustration and boundaries of restraining orders and divorce - is helping our spouses, family members find help for their disease.

One of the main reasons I can enjoy my life is that I know my spouse is getting wonderful medical and psychological treatment. He is in good hands. If he ever has a chance at sobriety it is here and now. As a friend, as someone who loves him - I want to support him getting help. If he refuses at any point before full sobriety - we're done.

It's all in his court. There is no more that I can or will do. It is now up to him to complete treatment and decide to stay sober. WITH help of a professional team.

If he cannot, will not - OK = done. Divorce.

From the moment we knew his problem was alcoholism 2.5 years ago - treatment began. It was a given. A disease needs professional help. I would say that my number one boundary in life is that I don't stay with people who don't grow and confront themselves. Learn, seek help. Friends, family, spouse. I can't imagine living with someone who is knowingly sick but is not getting help. We are all unhealthy on some level. Part of our job in this life - is to heal ourselves.

My biggest surprise in being a new poster here is how many, seems to be the majority, of alcoholics are not in any treatment. Nor does it seem that the families are setting down boundaries that include treatment.

If this were any other disease - that would not be the case. Would we watch a family member with a growing cancerous tumor and not insist on treatment?

What is the ultimate goal? Happiness, peace, sobriety, solid families. Or broken homes?

At what point do people feel that they can say to an alcoholic - you need treatment for the disease of alcoholism. I will stay if you go get the proper treatment that you need. But if not, I will not stay.

For me, that was boundary number one. Get into treatment.

It's seems as if many go from - my spouse is an active alcoholic = to I'm leaving. Or my spouse is an active alcoholic = but I'm staying and living in misery.

I don't see boundaries that include treatment. People DO recover from this disease.

I understand when addicts have been in and out of serious inpatient and outpatient rehab and yet still drink. Let them GO. But what about those who have yet to get treatment?

How do we help them get the treatment they need? At what point do we know it's time to give up?

Are we so afraid of the word "enabler" that we forget that are things we can do to help?

Barbara52

Yup, that was boundary number one. One my AH refused to accept. Along with the whole issue of his being out of work for 2 years and sitting on his behind doing nothing all day. So I followed thru and left him.

I arranged an intervention with our pastor and a recovering alcoholic the day I left, set an appointment for alcohol evaluation for AH a few days later, made all the resources I could available to him. He has chosen to not make use of those resources. He has chosen to not admit to his alcoholism let alone begin a recovery program. He has not hit his bottom yet.

I can do no more for him than I have. I care but I no longer love. I cannot be his support system anymore. He has others willing to support him. He chooses not to use that support.

Apolla

Good for you, great that you gave him resources for help.

He chose - no. Proud of you to let him go.

Can lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink - says it all!

I'm sorry for you!! I'm also so sorry for those addicts who will never accept the help that they need. What a tragedy for everyone!

Mr. Christian

I think you have almost answered your questions yourself.
You see many of us have tried all sorts of so called intervention, help etc.
When it comes down to it they must do it ON THEIR OWN.


The real work begins when we work on OURSELVES, that’s the tough one.

Also this is very unlike a cancerous tumor IMHO. One does not put a tumor down their throat like a bottle of booze.

I’ve been in Alanon now going on my 5th year.
I’ve seen many families try to stay together.

Unfortunately I’ve seen only about 10 % that do make it.
Nonetheless, you can make it even if you do not stay married.

Barbara52

Could I actually do anything if it were their choice not to treat cancer? Nope. Another case of people having the right to make their own decisions, even if I see them as perhaps not the right decision.

denny57

I'd suggest some reading on denial. The main reason I can enjoy my life is I no longer believe it's my responsibility to "get help" for anyone. I realize and appreciate it is different for everyone - I will never again devote my life to the service of someone who doesn't seek help for themselves.

I also realize you haven't been posting here long; something that is extremely helpful is reading people's history - my experience and observation here indicates everyone tried, tried, tried to get that help. Is it so black and white as to say get treatment or I leave?

WantsOut

Yeah, it's a disease but like Mr C said, it's not like cancer at all. You can't arrest cancer by changing your behavior.

Talk about "keeping families together" seems hokey to me. That's the kind of saccharine sentiment that keeps many a codie prisioner for years.

Apolla

Barbara, you're right. You could not make someone get treatment for cancer. We can only point them in the direction and then let go.

Apolla

Denny, i guess this is where I differ.

I DO think it is a responsibility of a family to try to help someone we love find their way to treatment.

Not devoting a life. Of course not. There is a healthy middle ground.

If they refuse, that is their choice.

Where can you read people's history?

Apolla

> Is it so black and white as to say get treatment or I leave?<

For me? Absolutely yes.

Apolla

> Yeah, it's a disease but like Mr C said, it's not like cancer at all. You can't arrest cancer by changing your behavior.<

Sure you can. FIRST you get treatment for the disease of cancer and then you choose to change your life. Get healthy. Stop smoking. Exercise. Eat right.

denny57

Histories can be read by clicking on a person's name and looking at all their posts. Heading back to the beginning helps set the stage for how everyone has dealt with their own situation.

It's not possible for me to see the world in black and white, even the world of addiction.

Apolla

Thank you, it will be good to read the histories.

There are things in my life that are not negotiable. :-)

WantsOut

You're reaching reeeeeeally far here. Alcoholism is a habitual, compulsive behavior. A brain tumor is not a habitual, compulsive behavior that can be cured by a change in behavior.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but what we're trying to tell you is that your sentiments are not new or unique and reading our threads might help you understand why many alanoners would consider them denial.

Tally

"Hope" is a word that springs to mind when reading your post. "But I'm staying and living in "hope".

When I first came to this board I came here looking for help for my ABF, I thought if I could find out the answers I could give him all the information and he'd go off and get treatment and get better. Unfortunately, things aren't that black and white.

I think I actually know more about the biological aspects of alcoholism than my A does...I also know more about treatments than my A does...Why? because he's not ready to get help and I am.
You where very lucky that your A went into treatment when he realised he had a problem, but alot of A's don't do that.

I really don't think you could find very many people on this board who hadn't discussed treatment with their A, who hadn't begged, cried, screamed and threatened but to no avail.

I don't think anyone goes from "my spouse is an active alcoholic = to I'm leaving". What about all the bits inbetween? Hope.

When you lose hope, then you leave. When life becomes unbearable, when you finally realise he loves the booze more than you, when it clicks that he's not going to get help any time in the forseeable future....

So for me, it isn't black and white. Maybe you're lucky that for you it is...

I'm not scared of the word "enabler" but maybe my "help" is unwanted, maybe my help is unappreciated, maybe I got sick of having my help thrown back in my face. Maybe I got disappointed too many times to want to "help" anymore. Maybe as an adult we're responsible for helping ourselves and yes our family, but only up to a certain point.

And just as they're not ready to get help, we're not ready to leave, and so it goes on.

denny57

I just want to clarify my previous post - in this particular instance, I was talking about the denial of an alcoholic.

Apolla

WantsOut - I understand what you are saying but I do not think it's any sort of a reach.

Research shows that addition is linked directly to genetic factors. Addiction is also connected to the differences in the physical composition of the brain. I seriously doubt that many deny (speaking of denial) in 2007 that addictions are a disease.

Who said that I'm trying to be new or unique? What is "denial" in your opinion?

That I think addiction is a disease and should be medically, psychologically treated as one?

Or that I fully know that you cannot force a person to make a decision to get treatment but that we can decide our own boundaries in our life?

Which one?

LaTeeDa

I have a different story than most. I kicked my husband out, separated from him because he would not admit he had a problem, let alone seek treatment. I don't know if losing his family was rock bottom or what it was that made him stop, but he stopped. He quit drinking, quit smoking, went to therapy, started exercising, etc. etc. etc. All the things that most people on this board would give their right arms for.

After he made all these changes, we tried to reconcile. It was then I discovered that the personality traits that probably led to his alcoholism in the first place were still there. He was still selfish, undependable, immature, and did I mention selfish?

During the two years we have been separated, I discovered that I had some big problems. I looked to him (and others) to validate myself. I learned that my desire to save him from himself had roots in my own issues. I began a journey that has taken me to places I never dreamed existed. In short, even though he changed considerably, I changed more. I found out that I do not need someone else to make me whole. That I don't need to be needed by someone to complete my life. I was living for someone else and I totally lost who I was in the process. Twenty years of my life had been devoted to others. What about my life? What about who I am and what I want?

I don't pretend to have it all figured out, but I do intend to live out however many years I have left putting myself first.

I am happy that my husband found sobriety and can be a father to our children. I wish him the best life possible. I can no longer live my life around him, much as he would like me to. I believe I have a purpose in being here and it is not simply to nurture him. This may sound cold to those who are still hoping to make that dream come true. To me, it's a matter of getting my life back on course after a twenty year detour.

L

Apolla

Thank you Missus for a very insightful post!

I The more I read the more I realize that you are right. I don't know if "luck" is the right word though. I really do choose people who are invested in helping themselves. I have very little patience with people who don't take responsibility for their life. In that way - my life is filled with people who not only believe but actively search out help. I'm really not around people who don't! :-)

I hear you! And am glad you explained that. Makes sense!

> I don't know if it's accurate to say they love booze more than us. I don't think it's personal. It's not about us. They love booze more than they love - themselves.

They have the disease of addiction.

.

This I understand. There is no hope without treatment.

What is black and white for me is the need for treatment. And being married to someone who is willing to help themselves.

My sister married her high school boyfriend. He was clinically depressed from the beginning of their marriage. Never got help. They avoided talking about it. The entire family did. Denied it. He was overweight. High blood pressure. Could not sleep. Was a miserable, sad man. My sister felt that his depression was his choice. Clinical depression is a disease. It is not a choice. He died at 47 years old from a heart attack. Without one doctor's appointment to treat his depression.

I find that a tragedy.

Agree 100% Which is when IMO = a person must decide the sanity of their own life. However they choose. For me, it would have to be to go.

I guess this is where I get confused. They're not ready to get help. We know that without help this progressive disease only = progresses. It gets worse. Life becomes hell.

Why would we stay? I can see that the more I learned the more my boundaries changed. The first boundary was = treatment. The second boundary = a different treatment. The third boundary was = no drinking in the house. No drunks in the house. The last boundary is = no drinking period.

We do the best as we can. It is a progression for us too. Good point.

Which IMO is where "denial" comes in. Believing, hoping that magically it will get fixed on its own. It will not.

Apolla

It's a beautiful evolution in life to get there.

I think that's where the philosophy comes from - that everything happens to us for a reason. To teach us. Lead us.

Being complete within our own skin is the gift we give ourselves!