In Defence of the Alcoholic Agnostic
doing the inside job
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: planet happy
Posts: 542
A god of my not so understanding...not eveybody's else not understandings.lol
That includes every buastures that ever walked this planet.
For no man or woman made the sunraised today...
We all just have opinions about such matters.lmaf
When I, as a man/alki take that step of freedom.
My chioce.....my decision, my responsiblity, my actions.
Instead of being a mindless monkey.
I can no longer blame others, the world, life,god ,or lack of god.
To not belive is still a belief. You belive one way or the other.
You have faith oneway or the other.
Since, I'm intellegent, educated.
Pumping pioson into my body dose not have excellent results.
Each man/alki has his own results from his experiments.lmaf
You wouldn't put apply juice into your automobile's gas tank ...would ya???
common sence
That includes every buastures that ever walked this planet.
For no man or woman made the sunraised today...
We all just have opinions about such matters.lmaf
When I, as a man/alki take that step of freedom.
My chioce.....my decision, my responsiblity, my actions.
Instead of being a mindless monkey.
I can no longer blame others, the world, life,god ,or lack of god.
To not belive is still a belief. You belive one way or the other.
You have faith oneway or the other.
Since, I'm intellegent, educated.
Pumping pioson into my body dose not have excellent results.
Each man/alki has his own results from his experiments.lmaf
You wouldn't put apply juice into your automobile's gas tank ...would ya???
common sence
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Five
Mog
I don’t mean this as a trick question, but I was wondering – what kind of person where you when you first came into AA? Did you have any passions? Or was it all a complete alcoholic mess? Can you relate?
I don’t mean this as a trick question, but I was wondering – what kind of person where you when you first came into AA? Did you have any passions? Or was it all a complete alcoholic mess? Can you relate?
I had everything I wanted and worked for and what many seek in sobriety.
It wasn't enough or anything that I had hoped it would meen.
I relate very much to you although I would say my conversations with my father were not so much calming as they were more stimulating.
I am mostly content with people or alone in large city, small town or remote nature. I love music, sound and fury as well as the silence.
And my views on friends have become rather broad and roomy to include many with different beliefs and experiences.
For the most part, I am content within each given moment for what it is.
And when I'm not, I move on and I try not to burn bridges to groups I outgrow.
And it wasn’t always so for me either.
Talks of God when young left me bristling with contradictions and perceptions of others hypocrisy.
Life was okay as long as there was no mention or discussion of God.
But it had been shown to me that the majority of the world’s population believes in some form of a higher power,
that the minority either is staunchly against it or believes in something else.
I have no desire to avoid or join in any of this.
I have found that no one truly believes completely as another and this variety is far more desirable to me than groups demanding total conformity.
It might surprise you to learn that I have written papers and spoke on humanism.
Taken the cognitive road in the 70's and ventured through SMART recently.
I find more in NLP and suggest you google ERIC and NLP as you seem to be seeking more than SMART or AA can give you right now.
And there is no need to burn the bridge with either.
You are just expanding your base, not trading one for another.
BTW: There are “agnostics” that don’t conform to that paper you posted by link.
Be Well as you move beyond.
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
BTW Equus:
I Liked when Gandhi said something to the effect of:
"If I ever met a christian, I might be inclined to become one"
Like him I never met a true christian either.
In fact, most calling themself that practice the mushea discipline and a few add pauline practices.
As I have no label or organized religion, I can't be compared to how much I'm aligned with their discipline.
I find a certain freedom in that I have only myself to compare to.
Now I have a firm belief in my God and believe it is impossible for anyone to understand it as I do.
Just as it would be for I to fully understand any one elses beliefs as they do.
Or anyones perception of Love.
But as soon as a label is applied, a baseline is established and it's variations are slight degrees relative to that.
Comparison ensues and the self labeled are mired in their own making.
Atheism is a religion with it's own dogma and tenets like any other but in the States, only "organized religions" are recognized.
Therefore, atheism and agnosticism are religions without any spiritual or political standing or real power.
Is it any wonder it is viewed as nothing more than a littany of malcontent?
I accept that others may call them self a "Christian" or "atheist", but to give any more respect than that would be to disrespectful to myself and my own beliefs.
However solitary and unrecognized it is.
Be well
I Liked when Gandhi said something to the effect of:
"If I ever met a christian, I might be inclined to become one"
Like him I never met a true christian either.
In fact, most calling themself that practice the mushea discipline and a few add pauline practices.
As I have no label or organized religion, I can't be compared to how much I'm aligned with their discipline.
I find a certain freedom in that I have only myself to compare to.
Now I have a firm belief in my God and believe it is impossible for anyone to understand it as I do.
Just as it would be for I to fully understand any one elses beliefs as they do.
Or anyones perception of Love.
But as soon as a label is applied, a baseline is established and it's variations are slight degrees relative to that.
Comparison ensues and the self labeled are mired in their own making.
Atheism is a religion with it's own dogma and tenets like any other but in the States, only "organized religions" are recognized.
Therefore, atheism and agnosticism are religions without any spiritual or political standing or real power.
Is it any wonder it is viewed as nothing more than a littany of malcontent?
I accept that others may call them self a "Christian" or "atheist", but to give any more respect than that would be to disrespectful to myself and my own beliefs.
However solitary and unrecognized it is.
Be well
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Originally Posted by Mogqua
BTW Equus:
I Liked when Gandhi said something to the effect of:
"If I ever met a christian, I might be inclined to become one"
Like him I never met a true christian either.
In fact, most calling themself that practice the mushea discipline and a few add pauline practices.
As I have no label or organized religion, I can't be compared to how much I'm aligned with their discipline.
I find a certain freedom in that I have only myself to compare to.
Now I have a firm belief in my God and believe it is impossible for anyone to understand it as I do.
Just as it would be for I to fully understand any one elses beliefs as they do.
Or anyones perception of Love.
But as soon as a label is applied, a baseline is established and it's variations are slight degrees relative to that.
Comparison ensues and the self labeled are mired in their own making.
Atheism is a religion with it's own dogma and tenets like any other but in the States, only "organized religions" are recognized.
Therefore, atheism and agnosticism are religions without any spiritual or political standing or real power.
Is it any wonder it is viewed as nothing more than a littany of malcontent?
I accept that others may call them self a "Christian" or "atheist", but to give any more respect than that would be to disrespectful to myself and my own beliefs.
However solitary and unrecognized it is.
Be well
I Liked when Gandhi said something to the effect of:
"If I ever met a christian, I might be inclined to become one"
Like him I never met a true christian either.
In fact, most calling themself that practice the mushea discipline and a few add pauline practices.
As I have no label or organized religion, I can't be compared to how much I'm aligned with their discipline.
I find a certain freedom in that I have only myself to compare to.
Now I have a firm belief in my God and believe it is impossible for anyone to understand it as I do.
Just as it would be for I to fully understand any one elses beliefs as they do.
Or anyones perception of Love.
But as soon as a label is applied, a baseline is established and it's variations are slight degrees relative to that.
Comparison ensues and the self labeled are mired in their own making.
Atheism is a religion with it's own dogma and tenets like any other but in the States, only "organized religions" are recognized.
Therefore, atheism and agnosticism are religions without any spiritual or political standing or real power.
Is it any wonder it is viewed as nothing more than a littany of malcontent?
I accept that others may call them self a "Christian" or "atheist", but to give any more respect than that would be to disrespectful to myself and my own beliefs.
However solitary and unrecognized it is.
Be well
Therefore, atheism and agnosticism are religions without any spiritual or political standing or real power.
Maybe because they dont want "spiritual or political" power.
Come on.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Religion:
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. (reference Dictionary.com)
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. (reference Dictionary.com)
Atheism is a religion with it's own dogma and tenets like any other but in the States,
Aitheism fails on point 1a and 1b at a fundemental level.
It also fails on point 2, - or we can play name that leader?? It has no leader and no practices as far as I'm aware!
Perhaps 3, holds some water for some but in my case you can count the months between me doing things like this and debating religion - it is certainly not needed in order to not believe in god.
If of course your point is based on your own unique beliefs about what religion means as opposed to it's dictionary meaning, it may hold some water for you but would be a little confusing for anyone unaware of your creative use of language.
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Five
(1.) I dont think you will find so many atheist or agnostics flying planes into towers.
(2.) Maybe because they dont want "spiritual or political" power.
(2.) Maybe because they dont want "spiritual or political" power.
(BTW: True of self proclaimed christians also.)
I have not heard the same for agnostics but perhaps its their almost ambivilent nature that keeps the media from writing it.
The point is it doesn't take many to act absurdly according to beliefs or non-beliefs.
Just a few.
And since they are generally considered to be sectarian zealots and often sociopathic, the claim only means something within their limited belief system.
We cannot use the extremist in either an organized religion or unorganized atheist as any indicator of common practice.
Which leads us to :
(2.) It is the extremist and zealots that clamor for postition, recognition, and power (whatever their concept of that is).
Many of us, only want personal power in the form of personal freedom.
Maybe we agree on that?
Be Well
doing the inside job
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: planet happy
Posts: 542
If you did a little reserch or a little investigation.
You would know Bill Wilson the founder of AA had the very same
problems you have pretaining to GOD and religion issues.
Mask murderers comes in all shapes, forms, and sizes.
Alcholic comes in all shapes, forms and sizes too.
What dose that have to do with anything?
The questions is...r you going to stay clean and sober today?
Do whatever works for you.
There's a saying in AA
"Don't work my program"
"My program might get you drunk"
You would know Bill Wilson the founder of AA had the very same
problems you have pretaining to GOD and religion issues.
Mask murderers comes in all shapes, forms, and sizes.
Alcholic comes in all shapes, forms and sizes too.
What dose that have to do with anything?
The questions is...r you going to stay clean and sober today?
Do whatever works for you.
There's a saying in AA
"Don't work my program"
"My program might get you drunk"
Old and in the Way
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: High and Dry
Posts: 789
Originally Posted by Music
AA doesn't demand that I accept the concept of "a" God, or "the" God, but a Power greater than myself.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
My very good friend T used to say "that even though the God of his misunderstanding, had left him puzzled and frustrated, his sponsor demanded he work on trusting in a higher power." Since he and I hung around together and I was always explaining little miracles in my life as God stuff, he told me he often asked "Gooch's higher power" to send him some guidance".
Flash forward 14 years. My mom is in the ER at the hospital and we are waiting for the doc to figure out whats causing her fever. I wanted a cup of coffee but the cafeteria is closed. I glance at my watch and my home group ( which I don't frequent nearly as often as I might) is going on. I wander to the front of the hospital and theres T sharing at the meeting. It's a few weeks after his anniversary but he's come to collect his coin even though he moved nearly 40 miles away. He glances at me grins and makes the comment"it never fails" ..
When I stop to reach down and exchange a hug with another good friend, he whispers (with a huge grin on his face) at me .. "T said .. I had a lot of trouble with this higher power/God stuff but Gooch's higher power has never let me down .... now watch He'll show up"
You see for us, who have transcended the seperateness and isolation of our addiction, whether we take a staunch denominational standpoint, have developed a concept of eveolution, advanced thermal dynamics combined with wave and particle theory, or just simply trust that there is an aperature through which we glance the place where spirit connects, something happens that is beyond what we knew when we were under wraps.
The NA basic Text also says :
and:
If that whatever is a higher evolution of self thats has occurred due to developing a discipline of repetative cognitive behavioural techniques, and it is working for you, then G/god blessed you.
It's the language and syntax that are keeping us at wit's end. If we listen to our heart, we're gonna do just fine.
Flash forward 14 years. My mom is in the ER at the hospital and we are waiting for the doc to figure out whats causing her fever. I wanted a cup of coffee but the cafeteria is closed. I glance at my watch and my home group ( which I don't frequent nearly as often as I might) is going on. I wander to the front of the hospital and theres T sharing at the meeting. It's a few weeks after his anniversary but he's come to collect his coin even though he moved nearly 40 miles away. He glances at me grins and makes the comment"it never fails" ..
When I stop to reach down and exchange a hug with another good friend, he whispers (with a huge grin on his face) at me .. "T said .. I had a lot of trouble with this higher power/God stuff but Gooch's higher power has never let me down .... now watch He'll show up"
You see for us, who have transcended the seperateness and isolation of our addiction, whether we take a staunch denominational standpoint, have developed a concept of eveolution, advanced thermal dynamics combined with wave and particle theory, or just simply trust that there is an aperature through which we glance the place where spirit connects, something happens that is beyond what we knew when we were under wraps.
The NA basic Text also says :
We talked and listened to others. We saw other people recovering, and they told us what was working for them. We began to see evidence of some Power that could not be fully explained. Confronted with this evidence, we began to accept the existence of a Power greater than ourselves. We can use this Power before we begin to understand it.
Many of us understand God to be simply whatever keeps us clean
It's the language and syntax that are keeping us at wit's end. If we listen to our heart, we're gonna do just fine.
Dancing To My Own Beat
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I don't know what kind of state I'm in
Posts: 1,326
Agnosticism has been a big help in having a spiritual experience with the 12 steps. To believe, as the Big Book says, "either God is everything, or He is nothing" has given me the freedom to question, test, and experience for myself the results of following the directions for recovery outlined in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Even today, when my self reliance fails me, and I struggle to avoid seeking help, I am in a state of agnosticism. I am human, and ego driven. I will always have a level of belief that I am able to will things to go the way I think they should. The process of the 12 steps helps me to move beyond that which holds me captive in a false belief system.
Agnosticism is a part of me. To claim to have all faith and no doubt is a lie for me. To admit I have doubts, and explore them is to have an experience. I like experience and wisdom. I've never been good at "Do it because I said so" or "Because you'll go to hell if you don't". I want to know in my heart the truth. The process hasn't failed yet. Each time I reach into my doubts and fears and put it to the test, I get a new experience. I wouldn't have it any other way. Hugs, Magic
Even today, when my self reliance fails me, and I struggle to avoid seeking help, I am in a state of agnosticism. I am human, and ego driven. I will always have a level of belief that I am able to will things to go the way I think they should. The process of the 12 steps helps me to move beyond that which holds me captive in a false belief system.
Agnosticism is a part of me. To claim to have all faith and no doubt is a lie for me. To admit I have doubts, and explore them is to have an experience. I like experience and wisdom. I've never been good at "Do it because I said so" or "Because you'll go to hell if you don't". I want to know in my heart the truth. The process hasn't failed yet. Each time I reach into my doubts and fears and put it to the test, I get a new experience. I wouldn't have it any other way. Hugs, Magic
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Originally Posted by Magichappens
Agnosticism has been a big help in having a spiritual experience with the 12 steps. To believe, as the Big Book says, "either God is everything, or He is nothing" has given me the freedom to question, test, and experience for myself the results of following the directions for recovery outlined in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Even today, when my self reliance fails me, and I struggle to avoid seeking help, I am in a state of agnosticism. I am human, and ego driven. I will always have a level of belief that I am able to will things to go the way I think they should. The process of the 12 steps helps me to move beyond that which holds me captive in a false belief system.
Agnosticism is a part of me. To claim to have all faith and no doubt is a lie for me. To admit I have doubts, and explore them is to have an experience. I like experience and wisdom. I've never been good at "Do it because I said so" or "Because you'll go to hell if you don't". I want to know in my heart the truth. The process hasn't failed yet. Each time I reach into my doubts and fears and put it to the test, I get a new experience. I wouldn't have it any other way. Hugs, Magic
Even today, when my self reliance fails me, and I struggle to avoid seeking help, I am in a state of agnosticism. I am human, and ego driven. I will always have a level of belief that I am able to will things to go the way I think they should. The process of the 12 steps helps me to move beyond that which holds me captive in a false belief system.
Agnosticism is a part of me. To claim to have all faith and no doubt is a lie for me. To admit I have doubts, and explore them is to have an experience. I like experience and wisdom. I've never been good at "Do it because I said so" or "Because you'll go to hell if you don't". I want to know in my heart the truth. The process hasn't failed yet. Each time I reach into my doubts and fears and put it to the test, I get a new experience. I wouldn't have it any other way. Hugs, Magic
Hey Gooch!!
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