The Illusion of Choice
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The Illusion of Choice
Hey All,
I've been reading a lot of posts over the past few days and there seems to be a common theme in regards to alcoholism that people who suffer from this disease often feel as though they don't have a choice in the matter. I'd read a lot in the past about this controversial topic, philosophers and scientists who debate whether the brain is an organ like any other organ, that it essentially decides what you do, and the feeling that you are actually in control of your brain is an illusion. For instance, say you decide to turn on the radio. You - your conscious self - reaches out and turns on the radio. The argument is that you really didn't decide to turn on the radio. Your brain decided to turn on the radio, and your brain casts a shadow of illusion over your consciousness to make you think that you are the one who actually turned on the radio. This phenomenon would explain why people who want to quit drinking, simply can't. Maybe consciously they hate the idea that they drink, but they really can't do anything about it because the brain is actually in control.
Personally, I struggle accepting this theory because you're automatically doomed to fail and you have zero ability to control your own destiny. Then again, why is it that some people have the ability to say no and others don't?
One might employ a simple tactic to stop drinking - don't buy any booze. That decision sounds great, but you have to have control in order to prevent yourself from driving to the liquor store to buy the booze. No different than having the control to not drink the beer that is in your fridge staring you in the face. Both instances require a decision to be made, and unless you are dropped off in the middle of a remote jungle, we're all always just a few minutes away from a drink.
How then do you gain control over something you feel that you can't control? How do you make decisions when you don't feel that you are the one actually in control of making those decisions?
To me, the key to winning the alcohol war is control. How to obtain control and maintain control is the big mystery.
I've been reading a lot of posts over the past few days and there seems to be a common theme in regards to alcoholism that people who suffer from this disease often feel as though they don't have a choice in the matter. I'd read a lot in the past about this controversial topic, philosophers and scientists who debate whether the brain is an organ like any other organ, that it essentially decides what you do, and the feeling that you are actually in control of your brain is an illusion. For instance, say you decide to turn on the radio. You - your conscious self - reaches out and turns on the radio. The argument is that you really didn't decide to turn on the radio. Your brain decided to turn on the radio, and your brain casts a shadow of illusion over your consciousness to make you think that you are the one who actually turned on the radio. This phenomenon would explain why people who want to quit drinking, simply can't. Maybe consciously they hate the idea that they drink, but they really can't do anything about it because the brain is actually in control.
Personally, I struggle accepting this theory because you're automatically doomed to fail and you have zero ability to control your own destiny. Then again, why is it that some people have the ability to say no and others don't?
One might employ a simple tactic to stop drinking - don't buy any booze. That decision sounds great, but you have to have control in order to prevent yourself from driving to the liquor store to buy the booze. No different than having the control to not drink the beer that is in your fridge staring you in the face. Both instances require a decision to be made, and unless you are dropped off in the middle of a remote jungle, we're all always just a few minutes away from a drink.
How then do you gain control over something you feel that you can't control? How do you make decisions when you don't feel that you are the one actually in control of making those decisions?
To me, the key to winning the alcohol war is control. How to obtain control and maintain control is the big mystery.
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Originally Posted by alcibiades 
For instance, say you decide to turn on the radio. You - your conscious self - reaches out and turns on the radio. The argument is that you really didn't decide to turn on the radio. Your brain decided to turn on the radio, and your brain casts a shadow of illusion over your consciousness to make you think that you are the one who actually turned on the radio.
With that said, your post has a very important assumption, that cannot be proven nor disproven with the current state of neuroscience research that is available. That assumption you are making, is that "You - your conscious self..." is separate from your brain. This is the classic duality principle.
To me what's a little more interesting of a question is this: When "You - your conscious self" decides to turn on the radio, how doest it then set into motion all of the neural impulses that are necessary to act on that choice (i.e. prefrontal cortex first has the idea to turn on the radio; it sends this "plan of action" to the supplementary motor cortex, which subsequently sends the plan to the premotor cortex, and finally to the motor cortex; the motor cortex then activates motor neurons, which travel to the spinal cord, synapse on other motor neurons, which then connect to your muscles, causing contraction and ultimately you turning on the radio).
Mind, over matter. The mind decided to turn on the radio, but matter (the brain) produced the action. How was it initiated?
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Originally Posted by alcibiades
Then again, why is it that some people have the ability to say no and others don't?
Some of us need more help than others, too. We're all different and have different needs, but from all I've seen, every single one of us can stop if we want to stop badly enough.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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alcibiades, This is a fascinating, albeit complex subject. You might wish to see this (somewhat long) video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2emgrRoT2c
It has a nice explanation of the neurophysiology of addiction. Some folks can quit with a decision alone, but McCauly makes a very good case that everyones recovery from addiction is just not that simple.
It has a nice explanation of the neurophysiology of addiction. Some folks can quit with a decision alone, but McCauly makes a very good case that everyones recovery from addiction is just not that simple.
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"How then do you gain control over something you feel that you can't control? How do you make decisions when you don't feel that you are the one actually in control of making those decisions? "
i stepped over the line into full blown alcoholism in 1996- simply meaning i no longer needed an excuse to drink. somewhere after that i lost the power of choice over whether i drank ornot- no matter how hard i fought, driving to the store to buy alcohol yet telling myself no, i just couldnt not drink.
and once i took a drinki had no control over how much i drank.
as far as control, i still dont have control over alcohol consumption.
however,i do have the power of choice, but i know it would only be the first one.
i got that power back by finding a power greater than me to help.
i had to fight the mental obsession pretty friggin hard for awhile, but i kept prayin to that power greater than me.
i stepped over the line into full blown alcoholism in 1996- simply meaning i no longer needed an excuse to drink. somewhere after that i lost the power of choice over whether i drank ornot- no matter how hard i fought, driving to the store to buy alcohol yet telling myself no, i just couldnt not drink.
and once i took a drinki had no control over how much i drank.
as far as control, i still dont have control over alcohol consumption.
however,i do have the power of choice, but i know it would only be the first one.
i got that power back by finding a power greater than me to help.
i had to fight the mental obsession pretty friggin hard for awhile, but i kept prayin to that power greater than me.
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Originally Posted by alcibiades
How then do you gain control over something you feel that you can't control? How do you make decisions when you don't feel that you are the one actually in control of making those decisions?
To me, the key to winning the alcohol war is control. How to obtain control and maintain control is the big mystery.
To me, the key to winning the alcohol war is control. How to obtain control and maintain control is the big mystery.
Having said that, I think the ultimate key to getting sober is admitting that lack of control once I start. If I try to find the answer to WHY I don't have that control, in essence I'm looking for a SOLUTION to that problem so I can go back to drinking moderator, which I can never do.
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That's a really tough question as the implications are pretty intimidating. I have been thinking lately that sobriety is nothing short of a grudge match marathon. Just plain old grit your teeth and don't drink but the desire will always be present. Not having any control would explain why some continue drinking even well into health problems while others turn their life styles around completely.
Can't say if some are hardwired for alcoholism but it does seem that it's more addiction on the whole. Like when someone quits drinking then overeats or over shops instead, or smokes a lot.
Can't say if some are hardwired for alcoholism but it does seem that it's more addiction on the whole. Like when someone quits drinking then overeats or over shops instead, or smokes a lot.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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I think much of what we do isn't really done by choice. I saw a video about dysfunctional families and my mouth dropped when he described my role and said that was the making of a Codependent. He described my brother and said that was the making of an Addict. Sure enough my brother started off in life as an addict from an early age. I started my Codie ways and picked up a compulsion along the way. I was able to quit and he still suffers. All that because of birth order. He probably has an underlying condition like ADD and I don't. No choice involved there.
I believe once we see that we are doing certain things because of a little nature and a lot of conditioning then we can change it. Our brains take the path of least resistance. With a lot of hard work and training we can make a new path of least resistance. You have to realize it is possible though and then be willing to put in the work. If you think you don't have a choice then you might as well not have one.
I found this video really insightful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
I believe once we see that we are doing certain things because of a little nature and a lot of conditioning then we can change it. Our brains take the path of least resistance. With a lot of hard work and training we can make a new path of least resistance. You have to realize it is possible though and then be willing to put in the work. If you think you don't have a choice then you might as well not have one.
I found this video really insightful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
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Hi alcibiades
There's definitely a before and after for me.
For years I had no choice. It was set up that way - whatever door I opened, drinking was the outcome.
When I decided to opt instead for change a few more possibilities presented themselves...I finally had choices and I availed myself of those good choices.
Actually for me the key was acceptance that I had no control.
The illusion that I could gain control was what kept me out there drinking.
By surrendering, I won the war, and by accepting my eternal lack of control over alcohol, I regained control over my life
D
There's definitely a before and after for me.
For years I had no choice. It was set up that way - whatever door I opened, drinking was the outcome.
When I decided to opt instead for change a few more possibilities presented themselves...I finally had choices and I availed myself of those good choices.
To me, the key to winning the alcohol war is control. How to obtain control and maintain control is the big mystery.
The illusion that I could gain control was what kept me out there drinking.
By surrendering, I won the war, and by accepting my eternal lack of control over alcohol, I regained control over my life
D
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my own experience is that my choice-mechanism was negatively impacted by alcoholism.
and my experience further to that showed me i am powerless over alcohol but not at all helpless about taking actions that will help me away from that powerlessness. that is where my choices are.
and my experience further to that showed me i am powerless over alcohol but not at all helpless about taking actions that will help me away from that powerlessness. that is where my choices are.
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I agree with Dee.
I previously had no choice.
But I have had one ever since I got help for my drinking.
I ask God for help everyday and I try to work the 12 steps of the AA program.
I haven't had a drink or suffered the consequences of drinking since asking God for help and getting it (in the form of treatment and integration into the AA program).
Thanks for the video, aw - I am going to listen to it while I work this afternoon.
Happy Easter to all.
I previously had no choice.
But I have had one ever since I got help for my drinking.
I ask God for help everyday and I try to work the 12 steps of the AA program.
I haven't had a drink or suffered the consequences of drinking since asking God for help and getting it (in the form of treatment and integration into the AA program).
Thanks for the video, aw - I am going to listen to it while I work this afternoon.
Happy Easter to all.
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If you go with the theory that alcoholism comes in people not bottles and AA s Doctors Opinion about a physical compulsion and a mental obsession an assuming the ''mental '' lies in the mind and is the mind part of the brain or is the mind ''conscious '' ? .or the brain ?
The problem centers in the mind of alcoholics according to the Big Book , so what makes an alcoholic different from an non-alcoholic does a non alcoholics brain /mind differ from a non-alcoholic ? I can go with the physical compulsion in the case of an alcoholic, whether its genetic or whatever I do not know? the non-alcoholics body does not react towards alcohol like it does in alcoholics so the parts that houses the compulsion /obsession does not exist in the non -alcoholic .. Is it the ''combination of the two compulsion and obsession that defines the difference ?.
What about ''cause and effect '' the first drink'' cause,'' triggers the'' effect'', is it in the body , mind/brain /consciousness ? but it only happens to alcoholics , if that is so then what about actions causing reactions or cause and effect does that only happen to those who are alcoholics when it comes to alcohol , is ''cause and effect '' selective here ? or in the alcoholics case does cause and effect only apply when the alcoholic seeks recovery ?
Fascinating topic . Cunning baffling and powerful comes to mind , medicine and science have been trying well over a hundred years or so to work this out . Glad to realize I have a solution to the problem via complete surrender and the 12 steps and my Creator .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
The problem centers in the mind of alcoholics according to the Big Book , so what makes an alcoholic different from an non-alcoholic does a non alcoholics brain /mind differ from a non-alcoholic ? I can go with the physical compulsion in the case of an alcoholic, whether its genetic or whatever I do not know? the non-alcoholics body does not react towards alcohol like it does in alcoholics so the parts that houses the compulsion /obsession does not exist in the non -alcoholic .. Is it the ''combination of the two compulsion and obsession that defines the difference ?.
What about ''cause and effect '' the first drink'' cause,'' triggers the'' effect'', is it in the body , mind/brain /consciousness ? but it only happens to alcoholics , if that is so then what about actions causing reactions or cause and effect does that only happen to those who are alcoholics when it comes to alcohol , is ''cause and effect '' selective here ? or in the alcoholics case does cause and effect only apply when the alcoholic seeks recovery ?
Fascinating topic . Cunning baffling and powerful comes to mind , medicine and science have been trying well over a hundred years or so to work this out . Glad to realize I have a solution to the problem via complete surrender and the 12 steps and my Creator .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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The concept that choice might be an illusion really throws a wrench into human accountability as a whole, how we measure morals, and above all else, how we dish out punishment for crimes.
PLOS ONE: Tracking the Unconscious Generation of Free Decisions Using UItra-High Field fMRI
Incredible study done here on the subject. Even if our brain is no different than our heart in that it acts involuntarily and makes "us" think that we are the one's acting voluntarily (I decided I wanted to listen to rap music so I turned on the radio), I still don't think that proving from an MRI study our brain activity spurs up to 7 seconds prior to conscious awareness proves that there's not a force (ie - spirit), that ignites brain function to begin with.
Consider a radio. You can turn it on, but it does nothing unless there is a signal. Who's to say that our brains aren't the radio, and the signal a spirit? We know that brain injuries can modify behavior, and some might say that's proof "we" only exist as chemicals moving around in our brains. But wouldn't the same be true if I smashed the radio? All of a sudden songs don't play as clearly, even though the signal is fine. A spirit attempting to spark chemicals in a damaged brain would be no different.
Happy Friday Everyone!
PLOS ONE: Tracking the Unconscious Generation of Free Decisions Using UItra-High Field fMRI
Incredible study done here on the subject. Even if our brain is no different than our heart in that it acts involuntarily and makes "us" think that we are the one's acting voluntarily (I decided I wanted to listen to rap music so I turned on the radio), I still don't think that proving from an MRI study our brain activity spurs up to 7 seconds prior to conscious awareness proves that there's not a force (ie - spirit), that ignites brain function to begin with.
Consider a radio. You can turn it on, but it does nothing unless there is a signal. Who's to say that our brains aren't the radio, and the signal a spirit? We know that brain injuries can modify behavior, and some might say that's proof "we" only exist as chemicals moving around in our brains. But wouldn't the same be true if I smashed the radio? All of a sudden songs don't play as clearly, even though the signal is fine. A spirit attempting to spark chemicals in a damaged brain would be no different.
Happy Friday Everyone!
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The concept that choice might be an illusion ? OK ,what makes the decision ? what about various choices how do we decide what is best, it can be a temporary choice that suits the occasion/mood, for example, a meal or having a short term relationship or whatever and we do so for selfish reasons or for self satisfaction .
It can be a medium to long term choice/decision for example a job offer but again we do what is best for us to suit or needs/wants .
Addiction ?what about choices ? we do have one , to stop, or continue as we are, or to stop temporary till circumstances improve.
The choice or decision depends on personal frame of'' mind'' , you can ''admit '' to yourself without making a commitment and stop with the intention when things are better you will continue to drink/use, as next time it will be different
You can also accept (choice ) that you cannot go on as you are because things are that bad and you may feel as if you are dying and you know that after stopping you will eventually feel better ''that could be looked on as selfish reason, as it hurts too much '' , but deep down you cannot imagine life without alcohol/drugs and you tell yourself ''next time will be different '' .
The above examples are ''illusions ''and imaginary they are not ''conclusions '' because a conclusion is a commitment to stay as you are ? or surrender without justification or rationalization . The illusion has to be smashed that somehow someday we will be able to drink with safety , the EGO has to be deflated at depth before one can totally surrender unconditionally .
Alcoholics, Addicts , can go through life like a professional boxer that keeps getting beat and keeps coming back time after time , next time I will win the fight I will train differently I will hit on the break , I will be more tactical or defensive only to get badly beaten up again and again , imagining themselves to be world champion one day or a contender , getting badly beaten and his corner throws in the towel to end the fight , this type do not know how to surrender , they know how to accept defeat and admit defeat but they still believe they can carry on doing the same things time after time getting the same result , it is only by complete 100% unconditional surrender and admittance and acceptance that they cannot go on like this and change must take place .
Exact same with alcoholics /addicts . 5th Chapter'' ready to go to any lengths '' to recover, and I believe'' that is when'' someone, is really ready that has completely surrendered . that is ''complete abandon '' of ''I CAN ''.
Those that suffer grave emotional and mental disorders , many of them recover if they have the capacity to be honest . like the boxer maybe one or two more beatings before they are ''ready '' .
Those that do not recover are people who cannot or will not give themselves to this simple program constitutionally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands ''rigorous honesty'' they are not at fault they seem to have been born that way .their chances are less than average .
Like the boxer they are incapable of surrendering because they believe ''they can '', some stop drinking for long periods and remain miserable and unhappy, and deep down would like to drink or be a contender .others continue and die before their time .
Those that are ''ready to go to any lengths '' and those that have the'' capacity'' to be honest with themselves are ''capable of grasping and developing a manner of which demands rigorous honesty '', they will recover by thoroughly following the path by finding a Power and cleaning house and making amends .and getting rid of old ideas and helping others
I firmly believe that those that have ''surrendered unconditionally '' as the Doctors Opinion state go through a ''physic change '' when they surrender unconditionally and realize that ''They Cant '' because without help it is too much for us but there is one who has all power that one is God, may you find him now . You can tell when a newcomer has had a physic change that the ''penny has dropped '' you can see it in their manner like the Doctor in the book seen something different in former practicing alcoholics
Choices'' can be an illusion'' , conclusions and action are realities and achievable and ''conscious decisions '' as I see it, That has been my experience and it happens when you ''keep it simple '' for'by that it is a great thread .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
It can be a medium to long term choice/decision for example a job offer but again we do what is best for us to suit or needs/wants .
Addiction ?what about choices ? we do have one , to stop, or continue as we are, or to stop temporary till circumstances improve.
The choice or decision depends on personal frame of'' mind'' , you can ''admit '' to yourself without making a commitment and stop with the intention when things are better you will continue to drink/use, as next time it will be different
You can also accept (choice ) that you cannot go on as you are because things are that bad and you may feel as if you are dying and you know that after stopping you will eventually feel better ''that could be looked on as selfish reason, as it hurts too much '' , but deep down you cannot imagine life without alcohol/drugs and you tell yourself ''next time will be different '' .
The above examples are ''illusions ''and imaginary they are not ''conclusions '' because a conclusion is a commitment to stay as you are ? or surrender without justification or rationalization . The illusion has to be smashed that somehow someday we will be able to drink with safety , the EGO has to be deflated at depth before one can totally surrender unconditionally .
Alcoholics, Addicts , can go through life like a professional boxer that keeps getting beat and keeps coming back time after time , next time I will win the fight I will train differently I will hit on the break , I will be more tactical or defensive only to get badly beaten up again and again , imagining themselves to be world champion one day or a contender , getting badly beaten and his corner throws in the towel to end the fight , this type do not know how to surrender , they know how to accept defeat and admit defeat but they still believe they can carry on doing the same things time after time getting the same result , it is only by complete 100% unconditional surrender and admittance and acceptance that they cannot go on like this and change must take place .
Exact same with alcoholics /addicts . 5th Chapter'' ready to go to any lengths '' to recover, and I believe'' that is when'' someone, is really ready that has completely surrendered . that is ''complete abandon '' of ''I CAN ''.
Those that suffer grave emotional and mental disorders , many of them recover if they have the capacity to be honest . like the boxer maybe one or two more beatings before they are ''ready '' .
Those that do not recover are people who cannot or will not give themselves to this simple program constitutionally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands ''rigorous honesty'' they are not at fault they seem to have been born that way .their chances are less than average .
Like the boxer they are incapable of surrendering because they believe ''they can '', some stop drinking for long periods and remain miserable and unhappy, and deep down would like to drink or be a contender .others continue and die before their time .
Those that are ''ready to go to any lengths '' and those that have the'' capacity'' to be honest with themselves are ''capable of grasping and developing a manner of which demands rigorous honesty '', they will recover by thoroughly following the path by finding a Power and cleaning house and making amends .and getting rid of old ideas and helping others
I firmly believe that those that have ''surrendered unconditionally '' as the Doctors Opinion state go through a ''physic change '' when they surrender unconditionally and realize that ''They Cant '' because without help it is too much for us but there is one who has all power that one is God, may you find him now . You can tell when a newcomer has had a physic change that the ''penny has dropped '' you can see it in their manner like the Doctor in the book seen something different in former practicing alcoholics
Choices'' can be an illusion'' , conclusions and action are realities and achievable and ''conscious decisions '' as I see it, That has been my experience and it happens when you ''keep it simple '' for'by that it is a great thread .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
Introspectator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Michigan
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Great thread! I love to "try" to think deeply. Not to
Derail the thread, I read something in the book "Biocentrism" about the body/mind making a decision on how to react to a certain stimuli up to 10 seconds before the stimuli was produced 😳😧🤕🤔
Introspectator
Derail the thread, I read something in the book "Biocentrism" about the body/mind making a decision on how to react to a certain stimuli up to 10 seconds before the stimuli was produced 😳😧🤕🤔
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Originally Posted by alcibiades
For instance, say you decide to turn on the radio. You - your conscious self - reaches out and turns on the radio. The argument is that you really didn't decide to turn on the radio. Your brain decided to turn on the radio, and your brain casts a shadow of illusion over your consciousness to make you think that you are the one who actually turned on the radio.
Why would anyone's brain make that decision, independent of the person?
I'm really struggling with this as a serious idea.
Originally Posted by alcibiades
Even if our brain is no different than our heart in that it acts involuntarily and makes "us" think that we are the one's acting voluntarily
If brains were involuntary, why do we need to study something in order to be able to practise, teach or write about it? Why wouldn't we practise, teach or write about those things involuntarily and randomly?
Some of our actions are instinctual, for survival. Like pulling our hand away from a hot stove. Not much conscious decision-making there. But if all our actions were involuntary, we wouldn't be different from each other. You don't get some deer eating meat, some eating vegetation, and some doing a raw juice fast for two weeks, but all of them doing it involuntarily.
I think this idea completely muddies any consideration of choice, which is a shame because I think how we view choice and alcoholism is key to finding the best approach for us as individuals. It's extremely helpful for me to bring the idea of choice into sobriety. It might be helpful to someone else to view it as having no choice.
I can't see how it's helpful to anyone to think that they don't even have choice to the extent of whether or not they turn on a radio. Has anyone ever desperately wanted to stop turning on a radio and not been able to?
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As humans, we are so complex so a simple one size fits all doesn't work. From a young age our brain goes through synaptic pruning meaning what we use in life becomes easier to retrieve and what we don't use gets pruned or forgotten. Some people lived in households growing up perhaps learning to cope with their anxiety (such as dad's anger towards mom) with a coping mechanism such as turning to their imaginary friend. Their imaginary friend gives them comfort when they are too young to know of any other self emotion regulating system. Their brain forms an easy release of somewhat pleasure in highly stressful situation. As an adult, you aren't going to turn to your imaginary friend for comfort to help with self emotional regulation, instead you turn to substances such as alcohol, food, drugs, shopping whatever it is that gives you that "safe place" or "comfort" because you've relied on and are used to self regulating yourself with other things instead of from within.
How can one control themselves "the normal way" if that's not what they are used to and it feels foreign. It's like driving automatic since you got your drivers licence and then be handed a standard (which you've never drove before) and told to just drive. I think not having control is just the tip of the iceberg and we need to uncover why the addict doesn't have control.
How can one control themselves "the normal way" if that's not what they are used to and it feels foreign. It's like driving automatic since you got your drivers licence and then be handed a standard (which you've never drove before) and told to just drive. I think not having control is just the tip of the iceberg and we need to uncover why the addict doesn't have control.
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