Axiom

I just watched “The Fault in Our Stars” and even though I had read the book a few years ago it made me cry. I have cried more in the past few months than I have in the past decade. Did you know it is possible to wake up crying? I sure didn’t. Anyway, near the end of the movie “The Trolley Problem” Trolley problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is mentioned. I had never heard of it before so I looked it up. There I came across this link, http://www.jamesrachels.org/killing.pdf, with a paper on the difference between killing and letting die.
I am wondering how people here feel about this as it relates to other alcoholics. I am looking at this on a personal level. As many if not all people do when they get sober, I have really been looking into the health issues that go along with alcohol consumption. I know for a fact alcohol can and will kill me if I let it.
I was a bartender and a daily drinker and have friends with similar drinking habits. I may have spun out harder but I know people I believe have an addiction to not just a propensity for alcohol. We have been through a lot together this included and they have been very supportive and make sure we do sober activities together.
I understand that I may be sensitive to the amount others drink right now but I can easily see them hitting a wall like I did. Or worse.
The question becomes is it an ethical to allow people you know to go on killing themselves or should you do something?
I am new and focusing on my own sobriety but would like to hear others opinions.

Fluffer

Axiom,

Unless you are talking about very close friends or family, your best shot at convincing people is through your good example. Most drinkers DO NOT want to hear it and will consider you a recovery weirdo for trying to spread the good word. You will be about as welcome as Jehovas Witnesses at the front door. On some level, all problem drinkers know they are harming themselves and acting foolishly but lie to themselves about this so as to suppress the cognitive dissonance. They do not want someone reminding them of how they are being foolish. If they are ready for a change they may seek out your advice and help, in which case by all means share your wisdom.

Axiom

Ha. My thinking is along the lines of don't be that sober guy.

Dee74

I was a little bit evangelistic for a while, but I soon realised that I don't have the power to save anyone, much less make them do anything.

All I can do is share my experience. It's not really the trolley problem or the Equivalence Thesis because I don't accept I have the responsibility for letting people live or die in this respect.

I usually wait til someone broaches the subject with me first and even then I'll help but I think it's best if they do the heavy lifting.

I've never been a bartender - I think that's one of those individual 'to thine self be true' things.

D

silentrun

I just watched that too. Now the movie Divergent is on. You are not responsible for another's addiction. It is not as simple as giving someone an antidote. You have been there and you know that glass only breaks from the inside. What you can do is get yourself healthy and be there when they decide they have had enough. Did you catch the part about how some infinities are greater than other infinities? Lots of great stuff in that movie.

GoesWithTheFlow

lol... yah me to. Close friends of mine that didn't drink would suggest I quit but I had none of it.

Dee is right, the heavy lifting has to be done by the individual and they have to be the one to approach you for guidance. That means that they are ready to at least hear what you have to say. But as we know all to well: Once we have heard what we have to do the real battle begins with ourselves.

The more I am on this site the more I am believing I am actually going to do this. It is kind of scary actually... but awesome.

pulltight

I have some friends that are hard drinkers like I was. Since I have stopped one has slowed way down and while I never bring it up he'll talk to me about quitting.
I'll never nag them about stopping but I'll sure support them if they do and cheer them on.
My only hope is they may see through me that they are not missing out on anything by not drinking and they will lay it down.

GoesWithTheFlow

I read "The Trolley Problem" and the essay on the "Equivalence Thesis". Interesting stuff. My stance on these type of scenarios is: It depends. The essay is talking of philosophers argue a black or white answer but I don't see it that way. Rather I see the grey.

Another scenario that could and has actually happened. A car is on fire and there is an unconscious person stuck in the car. The fire is spreading rapidly but your close enough that you could try and help the driver out... But if you do help, since you don't know if the car is about to be completely engulfed in flames, you risk getting severely burned or potentially die yourself. What do you do, do you try to save the person or do you let them die?

If you do nothing according to the equivalence thesis you are not better than if you murdered someone. I disagree. I believe I would do everything I could to help the person if I could get out safely. Life isn't only about you. You may have kids to feed, you must think of your wife or husband and how they would feel if you were gone, parents that may need your financial support, or a whole life a head of you with different situations that may be taken from you if you risk your life to help.

Actually thinking back, when I was a kid. There was a neighbor I had and he had a beautiful beautiful girlfriend. She would sometimes smile at us and we (the kids playing) would get happy. They were together I am not sure how many years, they really loved each other; they even drove the same style car. Well, I saw her on the news and it was sad to hear that she had passed away at the young age of 23. Out late her and her sister saw a bad car accident. They got out of her car to try to help the people in the cars. The sister were hit by another on coming car and died that night... It was devastating for my neighbor I felt really bad. She was a beautiful person.

What if there are a couple burglers that are entering your house with your family inside. What if you have to kill them, does that make you a murderer, by definition I guess yes. I think you have the right to defend and protect your loved ones although the courts may not see it that way sometimes.

A guy I went to junior high with got his house broken into by three men, right through the front door, while he and his family were watching a movie in the living room. The guy I went to junior high with jumped up and went at those men with nothing but his fist. He chased them out of the house, his only mistake was that he continued chasing them when he should have stopped. One of the robber turned around and pulled the trigger one time... it killed him. I feel sorry for his family. They were probably watching some Disney movie or a cartoon. I am proud to have known him though. To get up and protect your family like that!! That is a good dad. You don't know what they may have done to his wife or kids. He died but he died doing his duty as a father and a husband. A lot of my praise goes to him.

My point is situations are not black and white. There is a lot of grey to consider.

Thought provoking essay. Took me through a world of flashbacks and experiences.

..... And i'm done. Back to me being thankful I am alive after all the mess I have done and been through

MelindaFlowers

You can't control anyone's drinking other than your own.

Not even a MEDICAL DOCTOR could convince me to stop until a year later when delusional me was ready to stop.

If you go around spreading the word you will lose many, if not all, of your friends.

anattaboy

I read an article in Wired mag some years back showing a cluster graph depicting smoking quitters and the "cluster" of folks (represented by dots) that formed around original quitter. Generally the closest dots would be family, co-workers etc. extending to their close acquaintances... Looked a lot like our galaxy, universe. My guess is it's the same for sober. Your sober gravity will attract others. Proselytizing does not work. Folks can't hear or see till they can.

sugarbear1

could anyone convince you? I know I refused help from others, until I was ready to stay stopped.

maia1234

IMO- you might try and attend an alanon meeting. (friends and family of alcoholics) You might learn something....

Soberwolf

I agree with the others it has to be the individual

markz

No one can diagnose another as an alcoholic.
Only the person themselves can, or perhaps a doctor specializing in the field.

"the difference between killing and letting die."
I think there is no difference. Guess its like the last Seinfield episode.
Or look at it like telling a lie, by ommitance. Its still a lie, you just feel better about yourself.

Look at it differently as in a child or baby.
You have a newborn baby, and just leave it alone, not feeding it.
Thats murder, not only in my eyes, but the laws eyes too.
Adults, laws become shadier.

Its best to warn others, and if they choose to disobey, so be it.
Such is life.
How hard are you willing to warn them, hold them back. There inlies a quandry.