Aellyce

Hi everyone

I would like to ask a question that has occupied my mind and also troubled me for quite a while now, in a few ways. Probably there are others here who need to deal with managing more junior staff at work, or simply just coordinate the work of teams and deal with the "human factor" in it on a daily basis.

I've never liked management much, mostly because in general I don't enjoy hierarchical relationships (at work or in anything), I don't really like either the supervisor role or being supervised. But my professional choices during the past several years have made this inevitable.

So, the question. I've already managed to set my professional progress and responsibilities in a way that's quite unconventional relative to the structure of academia (the world I live in). So I have a lot of daily freedom and am not required to deal with front-line leadership in a traditional way, something I struggled deciding for years and I am happy with the position I am in now.

The position involves me a lot of intellectual responsibilities and supervision, though, where I don't need to be in the limelight, but in the everyday, I deal with lots of individuals and people opening up to me and pouring out their personal struggles to me. I like this role, but sometimes I have problems where and how to draw boundaries.

For example, I supervise the research work of quite a lot of students in the everyday, while their supervisors "on paper" are other people who don't really care about them so much. Very often, these young people end up coming to me for all sorts of things and use our discussions as a sort of unofficial counseling experience. And sometimes I see in them the tendencies, behaviors, emotions..., that I'd experienced myself earlier in my life and that led me on maladaptive, troublesome, overly risky roads. I often have the feeling in these situations that they might benefit from my sharing these life experiences... but then usually it would involve revealing too much in a professional context. I did it quite a few times, though. Sometimes the result was that they got really attached to me... too much.

Right now, I am dealing with a young 2nd year PhD student, who seems just like me in so many ways, it's scary. And I think she recognizes this similarly. Similar also in the sense that she does not seek me out in most situations but tries to resolve problems independently, usually with a good outcome. But she told me about these thoughts she is having... being an introverted person, not wanting to follow any specific structure, and her feelings that she sometimes feels she could maybe use alcohol to help "tune out" only in the evenings, and get back on track the morning after. She does not even doubt or question this would be a maladaptive strategy, but still brings it up.

In principle, I would love to share with her my full story. But she is my student... And I am facing similar situations all the time.

Any reasonable advice how to deal with them, possibly in ways that I can help but won't cross professional boundaries too much?

EndGameNYC

What I can tell you is that not setting appropriate professional boundaries can often exact a heavy and unanticipated toll for both parties.

Offering yourself as both a mentor and a therapist is most likely unfair to you and the people you supervise, and there will likely be consequences attached to the inevitable ripple effect between you and them, between them and each other, and between them, you and other people in your department. In a perfect world we would be able to manage both roles, but that has not been my experience.

Given who you are, such relationships will likely burden a fine but already overtaxed mind. To say nothing about your heart.

Since most of the people I've supervised have been or are already in psychotherapy, it's a simple yet crucial matter for me to have them direct their concerns to their therapists. I would consider it unethical for me to help them navigate through personal and interpersonal conflicts except when those conflicts interfere with their work and their professional growth, or in a true emergency (such as the recent death of a loved one). But even then, my support is both context- and time- limited.

For the same reasons I would not offer therapy here...I cannot in any practical way assume responsibility for people's welfare, nor can I give them the time and effort needed to help people get to know themselves better or to help them get to a better place in their lives. But I can easily make matters worse despite my skills and experience, my best efforts and my best intentions.

zjw

I think you could slightly touch on it say something along the lines of "be careful with that etc.." But I dunno how knee deep I'd go with it. And to be honest some people need to take there own walk around the block it can do them some good. And they may or may take that walk regardless of anything you say anyhow.

Aellyce

Thank you, EndGame. Yes, absolutely correct, all of it. And as usually, I am quite well aware of these things already, especially at this point in my life with all the recovery work etc. My problem, as usually, is not awareness... but a(n often long) delay between realization and execution. Just like with getting sober...

The reason why I've never run into serious problems due to these "no boundary" work-personal mixed relationships, despite my long history of them, has been because I don't usually do them the way I addressed in my post today. Much more often it was a form of it between me and a teacher, professor, equal collaborator, etc. And I know that this sometimes overly friendly and open attitude towards students etc is motivated by my past experiences... a lot of them. Ironically, I was hardly ever the person that received counsel from even those people significantly older than myself and who seemingly had more life experience, at least as per number of years. More the other way around even back in my historical experiences. And while I have the same feelings and judgment now, that these relationships cause unnecessary complications and most of all, are unethical... in my past, none of the people I was in touch with, displayed this type of judgment. Or only initially... And I don't mean with the slightest intention to put my attitude as something that just happened to me, I always had my own independent and very significant decisions and contribution to them. So this is something very ingrained in my mind, thinking, emotions... and as such, not trivial to shred. But I feel I've been having some success with it especially this year.

Back to the students: well the ones I am supervising are probably a bit different from yours since this is mostly a program in biology-related stuff. Many of the students who enter the school also did degrees in psychology, math, statistics... and not so many have had any sort of personal experience in psychotherapy. I am no therapist by training either, if anything, it's usually more like a friendship. But yeah, that is especially not a good idea as it can easily interfere with even basic work performance and ethic.

I guess I've posted this and am thinking about it because this is something on my plate currently that I want to work on and execute (finally!) some significant changes.

Zjw - thanks. Yes I think all I can do is to give some brief, indirect opinion. I already do that but never like to be firm with it as it's their life after all, and like you said, most people probably need to walk their own walk anyway.

Verte

Hi Haennie,

You know that person who is seriously allergic to cats and despite her best efforts the cats just seem to come out of the woodwork everywhere she goes until she is sneezing and crying and absolutely blinded with puffiness. Let's say hypothetically that person is you and your students are the cats You just have to figure out how to work with the cats everyday without being totally isolated or going into anaphylactic shock.

Sometimes I feel like my brain moves at a slow click and if I examined this question and slowed it down enough here is how I would reach the middle ground:

What is expected of me with regards to my University?
What is expected of the student with regards to their education/University?
What is my professional role in general? How does my personal life relate to my professional role?
What do I know? How do I know what I know? Is it anecdotal or learned from a professional journal/academic experience/professional travel?
How does what I know inform what the student needs to know?
How does what I know benefit the student?
Would I be comfortable sharing this personal experience with the Dean of Students?
What support systems are available to the student? Do I need to share this information with her support system?

Then I would ask everyone I know for their experience with similar situations, mull it over for a bit and go from there. Does this sound helpful at all?

Dee74

One of the best mentors I ever had told me - 'come to me for any and all work problems, anytime...anything else go see student support services'

I thought that was really misanthropic at the time, and I was offended...but I see the beautiful wisdom in that now.

Like EndGame said...don't overtax your mind..or your heart...you need both

D

EndGameNYC

We're always going to have our favorites, and share a bit more with some than others. This is a very grey area and should be engaged with care and concern. There are some things we can never take back. I was mostly mortified the few times when a supervisor would be voluntarily forthcoming about their personal lives.

I once asked one of my psychotherapy supervisors what she was thinking after telling her my thoughts about a particular patient, and in response to a strange (to me) look on her face when I finished. She answered, "Private thought." That should be enough for anyone to get the message.

herradura

This may be too simplistic of an approach to help the problem, but one I have used in the past to help guide people, not in academia, but business. If they are on a path that I have taken without success, I will pull them aside and tell them about a "really good friend" I have who did what they are doing. Of course the friend was me, but since I was not identified as the person it gave me a lot more leeway in helping them.

I feel I have a responsibility to help people to learn from my mistakes. This approach allows you to be specific in terms of helping, but not attached to the person on a interpersonal level. I personally wished I had had a mentor who gave me advice on things which often took years to understand.

Maybe give it a shot.

Good luck.

taylo

This may not be a popular opinion, but as a lawyer I'd advise you to steer clear of sharing too much information and/or getting too close to students (or colleagues). You never know when it could come back to haunt you; the student could go a little psycho and allege untrue things, then try to prove them by revealing personal information about you…I've seen this happen so many times, and it is always rather tragic. It is commendable you want to help these people, but remember to look out for yourself first. You've got your life together and want to keep it that way. I think the generic referral or suggestion of resources for him/her is as far as you should take it. Just my two cents.

EndGameNYC

We're always going to have our favorites, and share a bit more with some than with others. This is a very grey area and deserves to be taken seriously. It's extremely flattering for someone to be shown interest by someone they admire and who is someone they wish to emulate. This places the admired one (who is usually higher up on the professional hierarchy) at a distinct advantage, and care must be taken. There is, in such relationships, tremendous opportunity for emotional and psychological harm.

Continuous work at varying levels of intensity, spending hours together (f2f and/or digitally), and the accelerated process of coming to know each other often provides a false or superficial sense of intimacy that does not exist. There are also some things that we can never take back. I was mostly mortified the few times when a supervisor would be voluntarily forthcoming about their personal lives, and flirting was often on the table. I once asked one of my psychotherapy supervisors what she was thinking after telling her my thoughts about a particular patient, and in response to a strange (to me) look on her face when I finished. She answered, "Private thought." That should be enough for anyone to get the message.

EndGameNYC

Oh. Looks like my draft and final version were posted. I'm starting to repeat myself. I hate when that happens. Next I'll forget how to balance my checkbook.

Verte

Here EndGame. You can borrow my glasses.

What I have found lately is that I cannot remember how the heck I know what I know. So when someone asks a pointed question I actually have to sit back in the chair, put my hands behind my head and exhale as I go through my mental rolodex. As soon as I have formulated a response, they say "sorry Old Lady, we're waaaaay past you. Later!"

The days of knowing everything and telling everybody are gone. *sigh* (Just kidding).

strategery

Most universities have policies for how to handle students with potential issues. I would follow those procedures with this student since anything else could cause problems for you professionally.

Aellyce

Thanks guys, for all the good suggestions and shares. They are indeed helpful.

LTV - that analogy about cat allergy really made me laugh. I'm not allergic to any animal, but definitely need to pay attention to not "react" in some work relationships. And/or limit my curiosity about the people around me.

It is absolutely true about the "false sense of intimacy", EG - I learned that the hard way when I was young, I confused my professional respect and admiration with intimacy, and I acted on my feelings the wrong way, then wondered why it did not give me a sense of satisfaction that way. But there were also good experiences, great personal relationships starting from school and work situations. Guess I am not easily repelled by the idea because I did not have real troublesome experiences as far as anyone's reputation being compromised, but definitely some emotionally taxing situations. And I am still puzzled why none of those people kept boundaries either, they were absolutely not flakes. Definitely some "midlife crisis" cases. Also, my field is certainly not as structured and strict about relationships as the corporate world, for example... people do all sorts of crazy things. But I think I'm done with my dose of that sort of behavior, like with drinking.

I did have a couple cases with students going psycho though without me crossing any boundary whatsoever. But those people definitely had issues and were unusual exceptions in my career. This current student I was talking about has been 100% respectful, but she is a very curious person and likes to analyze everything - this is one way she reminds me of myself. But she can definitely do that with her therapist as she has one. Or with her friends.

The mentor I liked by far the best and could work with best was an interesting story... a brilliant guy who had a lot of problems with supervising people, he just did not get along with most people and was perceived as very weird by many. Very reserved with tons of social anxiety. But I clicked with him instantly, from start, in many ways. We just had so many shared interests and almost whenever we started talking about work, it would go on long tangents in all sorts of directions. We ended up exchanging books and music, and he often confided in me to talk about internal conflicts and unfair treatments among the senior staff in that institute or bigger, that I was not supposed to know I guess... But I learned so much from it and found it valuable to learn how our professional world works. It was also my far most productive period as a trainee. But we never talked about really personal stuff, I knew nothing about his outside of work life and I wasn't interested in learning about that. Had so many other things to talk about.

I think it's a good idea to suggest resources to the students to go to with personal issues, I have not done that so far but will.

DG0409

I think there have been many valid points about getting too involved with students.

I had a handful of professors I really respected in college, some of whom, I would have considered to be almost kind of friends. I can't say that any of them opened up too much about their personal lives. But there were a few that would have been willing to listen to whatever I wanted to talk about and offer a little advice. Having these people in my life really helped me.

(I did have a therapist when I was in 9th grade that told me about how she'd been a coke addict and slept with guys to get it. I was totally appalled. So yeah, there are definitely times when you should NOT share your personal experience. I think she was trying to help me by sharing her experience, but it was a therapy session, not a 12-step meeting.)

Sometimes I feel telling somebody to talk to a therapist is kind of a cop-out. A lot of things we don't need a therapist for and somebody with a little life experience is just as qualified to offer suggestions. Even people with a therapist sometimes just want to talk something out and maybe get somebody else's opinion. And maybe the therapist doesn't have any addiction experience and won't even offer good advice, whereas a previous addict or alcoholic might see the red flags right away.

I do think it's good to be careful and definitely make sure that you're not overly involved in an emotional sense. Are you doing it because you have a need to be a caretaker? Or is it just a matter of that you are an approachable person and people trust you? These are just for you to think about, not something I'm looking for an answer to.

I don't think it's necessarily a horrible thing to be somebody that people come to for a bit of advice and to share their problems. I really liked the idea of "I have a friend who.." It's a good way to share your advice without being too revealing about yourself.

Aellyce

Thanks, DG.

I have thought about and analyzed this extensively before. Not because of the need to be a caretaker... I think it's mostly because I am curious about people and enjoy the discussions. And personal development has always been one of my favorite topics. Most of these conversations never go into overly private areas, with the students most often it's about trying to help them realize their talents and give suggestions how to develop their careers and life to reach their potential. (This may sound weird from someone with years of alcohol abuse...) This is how it tends to go beyond the actual work projects.

I enjoy trying to help with observations and advice and I have been rewarded for these things in my whole life and yes people do often trust me so I guess I find some level of personal satisfaction in it. I also generally enjoy in-depth discussions one on one. But I guess there are better outlets for this than the workplace. In fact, I was just thinking the other day that perhaps I should go back to AA if I enjoy this role so much, might be a better place for it... I never really got involved and did not work the program, but maybe I should give it a try. It would just feel a bit weird to go there with nearly 10 months of sobriety and starting from scratch, but I guess people do that.

Verte

Haennie, what you last quoted with DG and I just quoted above brings me to one of the most fascinating relationships I have ever experienced: my hair dresser. He knows everything about everyone in the city. I think one of the reasons that he is considered one my city's best stylists is because of his level of personal discretion. There are no consequences for the incredibly deep personal information he has gathered except for himself and others, if he chooses to "dish".

The salon as a modern day microcosm??

Aellyce

I also had a stylist once who told me that what he loved most about his job was meeting a broad variety of people from many walks of lives and cultures, learning about them and discussing many things about life with them. And trying to bring a few moments of happiness to them if they liked the hair style. He was a great conversationalist, non-intrusive and absolutely not superficial, also knew a lot of stuff about many subjects. Quite atypical in his profession.

The discretion is probably a big part of why these people I've met through work like it. I am definitely someone who keeps confidences, it's central to my value system. And I've been in a few pretty tricky situations where it would have been a very bad idea to reveal anything about the relationships I had and the information I got to know about the people. One was actually the alcoholic guy I had a relationship with for several years, the one I write about often here on SR. That also started out being colleagues and not exactly at the same level of the professional hierarchy. I was a trainee there at the time and he was an established professor heading a large group. And he was extremely anxious about getting close to me initially, he struggled a lot with reconciling his intense interest with his apparent values and ethical principles. Obviously he was also a man with many secrets, and learned quite quickly that I could see through them easily. But that's what drew him to me intensely also... I think he craved the intimacy, which in this particular case, was not false at all. I think we got to share and know so many things and in such depth with each-other over the years that none of us ever did before. Obviously it ended up being an emotionally very complicated and challenging relationship, but it was more due to the nature of our secrets than what sort of situation we started from. But the relationship never affected our professional life negatively, we really kept that separate. I had at least two major similar stories also earlier in my life, one especially risky as I was only a high school student and he was one of my teachers, so I was underage even... but I'm grateful to this day for that story and what I learned about intimacy in it at such a young age. Obviously it set a trend in my life for later years. Then the two professors I became kinda friends with and learned from them tremendously valuable things both about the studied fields and just life in general. Both were very much respected and admired by both their students and colleagues, and we never advertised our friendships. But did not hide either; I spent long hours in their offices talking, and no one ever made a comment on it. And there were quite a few more stories over the years. I actually realized quite well what the true motivations were behind these types of relationships in my life, the origin is basically similar to seeking any kind of wisdom and meaningful life experience, something I have a great dose of in me, in this case via these people. I liked them initially because they were brilliant and creative individuals. This is how sometimes it was indeed a false sense of intimacy, because primarily it was a form of knowledge seeking. But as I said, some of them became very real and deep intimate connections. I was always very careful about not mixing it with any professional advantage or disadvantage. Seeking professional gain through private relationships is something absolutely unacceptable in my book and it has always been that way. So in this context, they happened to start in some sort of work- or school-related situation, but became independent of that with time.

I think I struggle drawing strict boundaries with my students because I had these amazing (and yes, sometimes intense) experiences, and I always recognize when someone is drawn to me the same way I used to be to those people in my past. Like this woman I mentioned. I totally understand the drive. But it's safer not to get into these things now and, as I said, find different outlets for my inspirations.