Hammer

Sorry to wander in here. From the Alanon/Friends and Family side of the house.

So I am doing my Step Stuff. Hard line program. Men's Program, long hours, mandatory sponsor meetings, books, homework, the works. May sound silly or extreme, but it works for me, and what I need.

But I have a question on the AA application of the steps. The Amends part in particular. Regarding the AW or A(whatever) she may consider herself, this particular day. (varies by day)

She has pulled some outrageous crap on me and the kids. If those things ever come up, she will pretend that it/they never happened. Will lie and deny if anyone ever does ask about it, but the most stunning thing is she will never apologize about anything.

As her dad mentioned to me this last year -- "She rarely says 'Thank You,' and Never says, 'I am sorry.'" I guess he told me that a few years and few kids too late.

So at my Steps meeting last night, we have one guy who is a cross-over from AA. Last night he mentioned that his AA sponsor had directed him to never say "I am sorry."

Is that common on AA side? To "Never say you are sorry?"

Thanks. Sorry if this seems stupid. Just trying to make sense of what I have been through.

PaperDolls

I've never heard anyone say it quite like that. I say I'm sorry all the time. The reason it gets brought up during AA meetings about making amends is because saying "I'm sorry" and making amends are different. One only requires words, the other requires your actions to match your words.

When making amends I apologize for my actions/words and ask if there is anything I can do to make it right. The key, is to not continue those actions. If I do, the words meant nothing.

ScottFromWI

I am not in AA, and you might find a better response in the AA forum, but my gut reaction would be that denial exists at many levels in the mind of an alcoholic, so it's not really surprising that she wouldn't say I'm sorry. I'm not suggesting that it's acceptable for her to do so, but it's the reality of the disease for some.

KateL

That does sound a bit unusual to me. I was always the sorriest person in the world. Perhaps she needs some time to come to terms with stuff that she has done. But sorry is, in my opinion, really normal. But perhaps she is so ashamed inside that she can't bring herself to face it. As I said, give her time. If she feels no remorse at all, then I don't know what to suggest to be quite honest. xxxxx And you lot from the other side are always welcome. There can be much insight for you xxxxxx

Jeni26

Is your wife in AA Hammer? I just wondered where she was on her own journey, because there sounds like an awful lot of delusion on her part. Do you think she is lying to you, or to herself? Can she really not see her part in it? Because that is exactly what her sponsor should be helping her to do....

I think PaperDolls is right..there is a difference between apologising and making an amends. People who have lived with alcoholics are generally immune to the word 'sorry'...it means nothing because it has usually been over-used (although not in your case apparently!)

In making my own amends...i have used the word sorry as a base for asking how to put things as right as I can. This starts with a commitment to stop drinking and not repeat the behaviour because the people I hurt understandably didn't trust me.

I have no experience with al-anon although I would certainly qualify for attending, and probably would if there were meetings closer to me. I think though if you follow your own program as rigorously as you obviously are, you will be able to let go of hypothesising about possible motives for your wife's behaviour, and concentrate on becoming as strong and well as you can for yourself and your children.

I hope you can find your peace Hammer.

tomsteve

I gave upothe "im sorry" line when I got into AA. I cant count how many times I heard "dam right you are" after sayin it when I was drinkin.
In making amends, it was goin to the people I had hurt, telling them where I had been wrong, and what I had done to change.

Anna

I have no idea why your wife denies things that she did while drinking or refuses to say she is sorry. Is she in any kind of recovery program? Denial is definitely part of the disease of alcoholism, but I can't imagine any recovery of any kind occurring while still in deep denial. That doesn't make sense to me. I am not an AA person, but I fully own everything that I did and the pain I caused to others (and myself) while drinking.

Climber122

Hi Hammer,

The comment is probably being taken out of context. Alcoholics who are working a 12-step program of recovery do come to a point where we make a list of all the persons we harmed. Then eventually we try to make direct amends for these actions, except when to do so would cause further harm. That said, it is common for the sponsor of an alcoholic to encourage them to "live amends..." to not SAY sorry, because like others have said, "I'm sorry" kind of loses it's impact after 1000 or so times! Only by actually altering our behavior do we demonstrate to others our new way of life. "Talk is cheap" is another way to think of it. Likely this is what you heard in the meeting...

Alcoholics when in the grip of the addiction are routinely self-centered, grandiose and perpetual liars. Either to ourselves, to others or both. But we can be real sweethearts when you get the booze out of us Keep hitting those Al-Anon meetings - that's the best you can do for you and your kids.

whiskeyman

and she might not be ready to face it either.
Its is easy to admit harming someone else, but for some stupid reason i found it hard to apologize for hurting my partner and kids.

Itll come with time.
I took the attitude that i will say sorry with my actions.
That wasnt good enough, for me and them. And my sponsor convinced me thats not the way to do it.

least

I hope she finds a program of recovery that will teach her humility and gratitude. Keep going to AlAnon. You need the support.


I was the alcoholic and I often said "I'm sorry" to my kids for my drunken behavior. It wasn't until I started living sober that they fully trusted me again. But I did make amends to them for the hell I put them thru while I was drinking. Best I can do is to never repeat that behavior.

Raider

I've only been to AA a few times. I've never heard don't say your sorry. I say I'm sorry.

littlefish

I never heard of that and it certainly makes it hard to make amends if you can't say you're sorry.
I have the suspicion that there is a second part to that sentence. The decision I made for myself in early recovery was not to say "I'm sorry" and leave it at that. I knew if I made an apology I had to follow it up with action. Like: "I'm sorry, I won't do that again". Or, "I'm sorry, I'll take care of that responsibility right away"...
I felt like "I'm sorry" wasn't enough. That I had to show I was changing with real action. Maybe that is what the guy meant?

yeahgr8

Nope that is not AA it is the personal view of a sponsor. As for your steps please do be guided by your sponsor on amends etc when you gone to them.

Carlotta

I am a "cross over" (or half and half )too and my sponsor never told me that. Like me, she believed that when we mess up, we should be women enough to own up to it and take corrective action (note: my sponsor was also a double winner).
Is Mrs Hammer working the steps? Because step 10 is really clear on that one
Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
We all mess up, it's part of being human. Realizing it and taking corrective measures instead of lying, denying and covering is being an adult.
The people at my AA home group (which is a step group) have no problem acknowledging when they are wrong and/or when they mess up and owning up to it.
Just some food for thought, Mrs Hammer has BPD and maybe that guy's sponsor has it too?

Butterfly

With my AH saying sorry never changed anything it's only a word I wanted to see his actions not hear his meaningless words of I'm sorry! Saying sorry didn't help me or take the hurt away saying I'm sorry only helps him!

MemphisBlues

I'm in AA and I never say "I'm sorry" in making an amends. It's more like: "I have wronged you, and I now appreciate my inappropriate actions. I know I can never make the hurt or wrong go away, but what can I do for you to correct the wrong or hurt I have caused."

Gottalife

It is common on the AA side, unfortunately, for a sponsor to put their own twist on things. That's what this sounds like.

You won't find that direction in the AA program. What you will find is the statement.. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fit the bill at all. We have to go much further . We may not overcome drinking until we have done our utmost to straighten out the past. We must be hard on ourselves and always considerate of others. And be must do nothing to save ourselves that would cause harm to others. And others means others, not ourselves.

One way of challenging that without confrontation would be to express curiosity as to exactly what is meant. I would ask him to show me where it says that in the first 164 pages of thebig book, so I can understand it better.

nin66

Thanks for the post. I am in Alanon (3 years) and my ex in AA (just over 3 years). I often think about the sorry and amends question. Although my ex did write me an amends letter, she mainly said she was sorry that she hid her addiction from me and that prevented me from helping her. I am deeply grateful that we both have our programs and that she is in recovery, but it feels like there is denial about the things that happened.
Luckily I have my program and I know that there are plenty of things I need to work on and plenty of questions I can ask myself rather than focusing too much on others. I do think about it a little most days though.

ThatWasTheOldMe

I said "I'm sorry" so many times while drinking that the words lost meaning.

August252015

Well said, Paper Dolls- same here. The only thing I would add is that we (the alcoholics) are supposed to focus on our "side of the street" only- our part in x or y that we are making amends for. That's tough, sometimes, especially bc we don't want to see it (or even admit "it" happened). Further, the amends are for us and our program - we do not try (nor can we) to control the response of the person(s) to whom we are making amends.

Sounds like you are working a strong program for yourself (and your kids). Good luck to you.