Very Strange question:
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 352
Very Strange question:
hello and sorry for this question..please, no insult is intended....
I have been reading alot, obviously cause i need to, through these forums..and keep getting stumbled on this God or higher power...I have to admit, i no longer believe in God..I was a poor Christian, but have since lost faith entirely in the existence of God....Surely if there was a Compassionate God, he would have by now intervened in our lives..I mean, i too am a father, and if my children were doing things to harm themselves, I certainly wouldn't stand idly by and watch, because they have free choice in their lives...No, i have lost my faith in the existence of God...
so here is my question: Can you still recover from these addictions, without the need to believe in a higher power or God, or is that part necessary?
I have been reading alot, obviously cause i need to, through these forums..and keep getting stumbled on this God or higher power...I have to admit, i no longer believe in God..I was a poor Christian, but have since lost faith entirely in the existence of God....Surely if there was a Compassionate God, he would have by now intervened in our lives..I mean, i too am a father, and if my children were doing things to harm themselves, I certainly wouldn't stand idly by and watch, because they have free choice in their lives...No, i have lost my faith in the existence of God...
so here is my question: Can you still recover from these addictions, without the need to believe in a higher power or God, or is that part necessary?
Forum Leader
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, one big happy dysfunctional family!
Posts: 23,056
You probably could, there are certainly atheists in AA, but I've found it so much easier and comforting to have a higher power in my life.
In early sobriety I prayed for God to "fix" me, and my prayers were incredibly selfish. When God didn't answer them I hated him. But in much of the AA literature you'll notice is says "God of our understanding". To me that means I get to choose what my God is or is like, and the God I have today is perfect for me only. You don't have to have the same God as everyone else. Does that make sense?
My first sponsor had me do a simple exercise. Write down everything you'd like your God to be, and then start to form a mental and spiritual image of your God. That becomes your higher power. I'm not saying everyone should do it that way, just that it worked for me.
In early sobriety I prayed for God to "fix" me, and my prayers were incredibly selfish. When God didn't answer them I hated him. But in much of the AA literature you'll notice is says "God of our understanding". To me that means I get to choose what my God is or is like, and the God I have today is perfect for me only. You don't have to have the same God as everyone else. Does that make sense?
My first sponsor had me do a simple exercise. Write down everything you'd like your God to be, and then start to form a mental and spiritual image of your God. That becomes your higher power. I'm not saying everyone should do it that way, just that it worked for me.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Belchertown, MA
Posts: 9
Hi Lost,
Many agnostics and atheists DO recover...a belief in God is not necessary.
That said, it has been my personal experience that some sort of spiritual belief is important. I am not a religious person, but if I did not believe in something "larger" than myself, I would not have found the courage to change.
Take care!
Many agnostics and atheists DO recover...a belief in God is not necessary.
That said, it has been my personal experience that some sort of spiritual belief is important. I am not a religious person, but if I did not believe in something "larger" than myself, I would not have found the courage to change.
Take care!
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
The term "god" as it is stated in the steps is "god as we understand him." The god that I understand is not a "him" or much at all like the god I was taught about as a child. Many people do choose to go back to the god of their upbringing or find themselves seeking out religion to help them with their spiritual understanding, and many more do not. When you're hearing about a "Higher Power" in the rooms or on these boards, it's important to try to distinguish the difference between spirituality and religion.
I've had those feelings that you have, that "if there's a god, why doesn't he scoop me up and save my ass?" If it helps at all, I could see several times in the past -- many times, actually -- that I found myself at a crossroads. The choice of which way to go was always mine. I knew I had a problem and I knew that help was available, but I chose not to ask for it or accept it. So, if you're trying to reckon your understanding of god in Christian terms, remember that the god of the Bible created us with free will.
Not much of an answer to your question, I know. Just a clarification, perhaps, of your observations. I'm sure others will be along soon to add their two cents.
Take care & keep truckin!
Peace & Love,
Sugah
I've had those feelings that you have, that "if there's a god, why doesn't he scoop me up and save my ass?" If it helps at all, I could see several times in the past -- many times, actually -- that I found myself at a crossroads. The choice of which way to go was always mine. I knew I had a problem and I knew that help was available, but I chose not to ask for it or accept it. So, if you're trying to reckon your understanding of god in Christian terms, remember that the god of the Bible created us with free will.
Not much of an answer to your question, I know. Just a clarification, perhaps, of your observations. I'm sure others will be along soon to add their two cents.
Take care & keep truckin!
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Originally Posted by losteverything 
so here is my question: Can you still recover from these addictions, without the need to believe in a higher power or God, or is that part necessary?
The quick, simple answer (from me) is Yes.
I've been sober for over a year and I consider myself agnostic. For me, it's not because I lost my faith.......I never really had it. I feel like it's over my head. Some days I feel more attuned to a sort of spirituality and others it's way off. For me, staying sober was about being in the right frame of mind, keeping myself out of situations that were "dangerous", talking open and honestly about my feelings, Sober Recovery.com, and finally realizing that it had to be done.
If a person wants to get sober, they can. God or God-less. HP or HP-less.
I wish you luck!
doll
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: S.E. Mich.
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by losteverything
Can you still recover from these addictions, without the need to believe in a higher power or God, or is that part necessary?
Necessary? No.
I had all kinds of trouble with that when I start too, and some times still do. Regardless of that I found a way, my way that works for me and helps me keep clean and sober.
A lot of people do it alot of different ways. Some will tell you you must. Some will tell you, you must not.
It's ok to work on getting and staying sober, and leaving that issue for later, if thats what works for you. The bottom line, the only past that matters, is that you find your way into your recovery, if thats what you feel you need to do.
And BTW, it's not a strange question at all, in fact, it comes up alot.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
There are secular programs/support groups as well. I posted some links on your other thread.
SMART Recovery is another one to check out. They use cognitive-behavioral methods.
Oh yeah...
It's a fairly common question.
SMART Recovery is another one to check out. They use cognitive-behavioral methods.
Oh yeah...
It's a fairly common question.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
A question I have heard many times, is a HP needed? It depends, every one is different, but there are many who are agnostic or professed atheist who whether they want to admit it or not have used a HP to aide in thier recovery.
A Higher Power....... if you accept advice from an individual or a group that aides you in your maintaining or gaining sobriety then whether you are aware of it or not you have admitted by your actions there is a higher power then you.
My Higher Power is a loving and forgiving God that I happen to have found to be in The New Testament of the Bible. That does not mean that I feel that someone who (whether admitted or not) finds thier HP in a group or individual is any less or more then me, we are all equal in my Gods eyes.
In AA a HP is a real sticking point for so many folks when they first come into the fellowship, but once they understand that it is merely a HP of thier understanding then them selves that they understand, then they move forward in thier sobriety. Many of the old timers that I hear share said when they first came into AA they hated God as they knew him and that the HP they initially relied on to gain and maintain sobriety was AA itself. They said as they grew in the fellowship and thier own spiritiuality that thier HP in some cases did change, in some cases it didn't. But to a person everyone of them says that they did not do it alone, they did it with the aide of God/thier Higher Power as they understood him.
I will tell you right now that my butt was kicked so savagely by alcohol that I actually surrendered myself to the fact that I could not beat it so there was no need to fight what I could not defeat! ALCOHOL was my Higher Power! At that point in time any man, or woman that was an alcoholic and had quit drinking for more then a week was more powerful then me because they were more powerful over alcohol then I was! They were a Higher Power then me.
The AA group was more powerful then me over alcohol by simply having people within AA that had been sober for more then a week.
I look at it this way, my best thinking and my greatest power could not get me sober, I had to admit there was a power higher then me in order to get sober, my ultimate Higher Power is God, next in line is AA and then my sponsor.
I was unable to make myself happy, God, AA, and my sponsor have aided me in finding happiness I never had before.
I do not have a problem with some one or something being more powerful then me as long as they/it cares about me, I did have a HP that made me unhappy alcohol, thanks be to God, AA and my sponsor that they have helped me to gain the power to overcome the power alcohol had on me.
Ask your self this simple question, is it easier to win a fight by your self or with the help of someone or something more powerful then you? Do you want to take the hardest road possible and go it alone or seek aide.
By merely posting on this board you are at a minimum seeking a HP.
A Higher Power....... if you accept advice from an individual or a group that aides you in your maintaining or gaining sobriety then whether you are aware of it or not you have admitted by your actions there is a higher power then you.
My Higher Power is a loving and forgiving God that I happen to have found to be in The New Testament of the Bible. That does not mean that I feel that someone who (whether admitted or not) finds thier HP in a group or individual is any less or more then me, we are all equal in my Gods eyes.
In AA a HP is a real sticking point for so many folks when they first come into the fellowship, but once they understand that it is merely a HP of thier understanding then them selves that they understand, then they move forward in thier sobriety. Many of the old timers that I hear share said when they first came into AA they hated God as they knew him and that the HP they initially relied on to gain and maintain sobriety was AA itself. They said as they grew in the fellowship and thier own spiritiuality that thier HP in some cases did change, in some cases it didn't. But to a person everyone of them says that they did not do it alone, they did it with the aide of God/thier Higher Power as they understood him.
I will tell you right now that my butt was kicked so savagely by alcohol that I actually surrendered myself to the fact that I could not beat it so there was no need to fight what I could not defeat! ALCOHOL was my Higher Power! At that point in time any man, or woman that was an alcoholic and had quit drinking for more then a week was more powerful then me because they were more powerful over alcohol then I was! They were a Higher Power then me.
The AA group was more powerful then me over alcohol by simply having people within AA that had been sober for more then a week.
I look at it this way, my best thinking and my greatest power could not get me sober, I had to admit there was a power higher then me in order to get sober, my ultimate Higher Power is God, next in line is AA and then my sponsor.
I was unable to make myself happy, God, AA, and my sponsor have aided me in finding happiness I never had before.
I do not have a problem with some one or something being more powerful then me as long as they/it cares about me, I did have a HP that made me unhappy alcohol, thanks be to God, AA and my sponsor that they have helped me to gain the power to overcome the power alcohol had on me.
Ask your self this simple question, is it easier to win a fight by your self or with the help of someone or something more powerful then you? Do you want to take the hardest road possible and go it alone or seek aide.
By merely posting on this board you are at a minimum seeking a HP.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
IMO, saying that looking for support and information is seeking a HP in a 12-Step sense is bit of a stretch. I see it simply as using tools and resources to better oneself, something we all do in life.
not a greeter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: padmasana
Posts: 13,927
Originally Posted by doorknob
IMO, saying that looking for support and information is seeking a HP in a 12-Step sense is bit of a stretch. I see it simply as using tools and resources to better oneself, something we all do in life.
.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
doorknob here is the definations of Power as they apply to what we are talking about:
Power
1 a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect b : legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others b : one having such power; specifically : a sovereign state c : a controlling group : ESTABLISHMENT -- often used in the phrase the powers that be d archaic : a force of armed men e chiefly dialect : a large number or quantity
3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy c : political control or influence
Now using the definition of Power, any time we by our self do not have the power alone to do something, we have a choice, we can either not do it or we can seek another power to help us.
My personal preference is that if I need help with something I am not going to seek out something with less power then I have, because that power could not do what I am seeking to do by itself, it has no experience at all in what I am wanting to do because like me, alone it has never done what I need to do.
No I prefer to ask a power higher then me who by itself has done what I would like to do because it has the experience and/or the power already to do what I want to do. AA as a whole meets that criteria as well as God through sheer power alone.
I choose the easier proven reliable way via a HP, that is my preference, when I see a tool it is one of 2 things, an inanimate object or something provided by someone with a proven track record, someone who has accomplished the task I want to accomplish, in other words something given to me by some one with a Higher Power then me, they are providing something to me they have used that works. Resources are no different then tools, they are the experience of those who have more power than I do over doing something.
We all like to think that everything we do in life is all because of what we did giving no credit to those who led the way by the power they possess.
I acknowledge openly that there are support groups with more power then I have over alcohol, they do more then just support me, they have proven through thier track record that they have more power then me, they have overcome alcohol.
Power
1 a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect b : legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others b : one having such power; specifically : a sovereign state c : a controlling group : ESTABLISHMENT -- often used in the phrase the powers that be d archaic : a force of armed men e chiefly dialect : a large number or quantity
3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy c : political control or influence
Now using the definition of Power, any time we by our self do not have the power alone to do something, we have a choice, we can either not do it or we can seek another power to help us.
My personal preference is that if I need help with something I am not going to seek out something with less power then I have, because that power could not do what I am seeking to do by itself, it has no experience at all in what I am wanting to do because like me, alone it has never done what I need to do.
No I prefer to ask a power higher then me who by itself has done what I would like to do because it has the experience and/or the power already to do what I want to do. AA as a whole meets that criteria as well as God through sheer power alone.
I choose the easier proven reliable way via a HP, that is my preference, when I see a tool it is one of 2 things, an inanimate object or something provided by someone with a proven track record, someone who has accomplished the task I want to accomplish, in other words something given to me by some one with a Higher Power then me, they are providing something to me they have used that works. Resources are no different then tools, they are the experience of those who have more power than I do over doing something.
We all like to think that everything we do in life is all because of what we did giving no credit to those who led the way by the power they possess.
I acknowledge openly that there are support groups with more power then I have over alcohol, they do more then just support me, they have proven through thier track record that they have more power then me, they have overcome alcohol.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Not everybody uses a theistic framework to organize what they perceive as realilty. And while it can be done, many have no desire to mold their beliefs to conform to one.
That doesn't mean we don't acknowledge those who have provided us with ideas and information, as well as support and encouragement.
That doesn't mean we don't acknowledge those who have provided us with ideas and information, as well as support and encouragement.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
I like that, doorknob. well put.
IMHO, yes. (can someone recover w/o the need for a HP)
however, that comes from a spiritual person whose understanding of a HP is one that ... not believing in a HP doesn't make it not exist.
IMHO, yes. (can someone recover w/o the need for a HP)
however, that comes from a spiritual person whose understanding of a HP is one that ... not believing in a HP doesn't make it not exist.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Walden CO
Posts: 151
HP, etc.
Originally Posted by doorknob
Not everybody uses a theistic framework to organize what they perceive as realilty. And while it can be done, many have no desire to mold their beliefs to conform to one.
That doesn't mean we don't acknowledge those who have provided us with ideas and information, as well as support and encouragement.
That doesn't mean we don't acknowledge those who have provided us with ideas and information, as well as support and encouragement.
doorknob - I love what you said here. You have stated exactly what my feelings are, and for some reason, I have a hard time putting it into words. I know sobriety can be achieved without a HP or God, if that's how one wants to put it, and I believe everyone has to use the approach that works for them. If it's God - go for it. If it's not, go for that, too. Thank goodness, we all think differently or it sure would be a boring world. I do think we all achieve sobriety easiest with a support system of some kind, no matter what that system might be. I can't imagine how hard it must be to do it alone!
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. P.S. I'm at day 26 today - excited to hit my one month anniversary. Yea!!!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 146
People who were inveterate alcoholics, that managed to give up drinking, and become an example to anyone with a dependency on booze (like me) are my higher power.
I can see them. I can read about them. I can 'talk' to them on here. So I believe in them.
That will do me if I need a HP.
I can see them. I can read about them. I can 'talk' to them on here. So I believe in them.
That will do me if I need a HP.
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