Cathy31

Hi
I am only in AA a few months...maybe I am being intolerant...but what *precisely* is the difficulty with the HP part of AA that is the fodder for many to-ings and fro-ings on so many threads??

Can I tell you I see it :

According to CathyM

1) Your HP is of your own choosing..where is the difficulty with that???? Mine is God, Jesus Christ. Last night in my meeting a gentleman spoke of HIS HP who is his dead alcoholic brother!!!! Did anyone bat an eyelid!!?? That is HIS HP.

2) YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HIGHER POWER to properly work the programme. Now DD before you jump at this...it is also OK to go along to AA meetings having NO conception of a higher power...but you have to be open to getting one eventually (as many people do, sometimes only after YEARS and YEARS, but they keep at it) If your attitude is I think the HP concept is NOT for me, period. Then AA is not for you, period. You should then try LifeBoat, RR, SMART, etc etc etc etc. THe opportunities are endless. But AA and no HP - see, it's a spiritual programme - and no open mindedness to RECEIVE and RECOGNISE a HP when the time is right...well IMHO it's just not the programme for you. The WILLINGNESS has to be there.

3) There is a lot of talk about this exalted "take what you like and leave the rest" Where did that come from?? Is it in the Big Book? Please correct me if I am wrong. I am of the opinion that the programme is the programme...as Ken, nomobeer, once said "if it's not in the big book it's not in my programme" (sorry ken if you have moved on since then! ) but that's how I feel...the programme is the programme. I don't take what I like and leave the rest...AA works if you work it - why would I mess with it? How do I know better to do this?? I know I don't know better, so I won't even try it.

Reason I bring this up, is that I mentioned this after my meeting last week - there were people there with average of about 15 yrs sobriety (excluding me obviously!!! LOL!) but a good few with over 30 years, amazing spiritual peaceful people all of them (that's what I look to, btw, not the years, but the peace and contentment and spirituality that comes STREAMING from these people) and not one of them believed in "take what you like and leave the rest" In fact they were adamantly against it - as I am. My sponsor also concurred - she said you stick with the programme, it's not a la carte.

So! Those are my views. I am interested in everyone else's too.

Just a caution : please don't approach this in "ATTACK" mode. This is my opinion which I am entitled to. So please no argumentative, INCITING (insightful is fine) posts...just your opinion whether you agree or disagree with me would be most interesting to me and I am sure to many others.

For example "quoting" me and picking holes in what I am saying (choice: are you saying that blah blah blah a newcomer who has no faith in HP is not welcome in AA, I can just see it coming...(answer:no) that type of post is not helpful nor am I interested in it on this thread)

What would be helpful and interesting is :

I agree / don't agree because of ....

Bear in mind I believe totally in what I have said, and it is supported by my sponsor and my home group in real life...so my mind is not going to be changed...however, it's always good to be exposed to other people's thinking, and who knows what I or anyone else might learn!

When we're in a better place on this AA board, I won't need to write such a long caution! LOL! Now, maybe I won't get any replies!!


Cathy31
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jlo34

Cathy,
What a nice thread. I appreciate your opinion (course, it's pretty much the same as my own!!!).

I have a gal I'm sponsoring who was dead-set against "God". "God" screwed her over, bottom line was she felt that God didn't protect her. We had to start at bare fundamentals with spirituality. She wouldn't pray, but she wanted more from the program. She had the key of willingness, willingness to change, and with time and a lot of work...she now has a HP that she is beginning to understand. She can pray now and with her eyes shut. She can have meaningful conversation with her HP!!! Watching her go through from beginning to now, has been such a beautiful thing.

That issue with which she couldn't pray...couldn't/wouldn't believe in a Power Greater than herself...kept her drunk and high for 10 more years. She came to the program 10 years earlier. Now she's back with 19 months sober...I'm so proud of her and it has been so neat watching her grow! What a blessing.

Thankfully, she didn't take what she wanted (she did that the first time in AA) and leave the rest behind. There's generally good reason to listen to what others are saying. If it doesn't apply now, it might someday in the future. If it is offensive, maybe hitting a character defect or shortcoming. Some things truly have no correlation whatsoever - that's when considering the source and principles before personalities comes in.

Cathy, it's too bad you felt you needed to write that long CAUTION note...sad, actually. Can't blame you for doing it though.

Love ya sister!
Jen

Cathy31

Thanks Jen
I really appreciate your post! IT's great to hear from you and your experience helping this girl wow I could just picture it the way you described her praying for the first time - with her eyes shut! I hope others that are afraid of the God thing can read your story and I am sure it will help them!
Thanks Jlo! Have a wonderful day!
Cathy31
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Dan

I don't know why a lot of people have problems with the concept of a higher power.
I can only speak of how it was for me. A mixture of resentment at the church of my upbringing, an imperfect set of beliefs about my place in humanity, philosophical convictions that didn't seem to allow for a reconciliation with the idea of outside intervention.
Most importantly, perhaps, was that I simply wasn't ready, until I was ready.
Goes along with being ready to stop drinking too, I would imagine. At least, it was for me.

So a lot of my earlier attempts in AA and the sister fellowship were really only exercises in futility.
Going through the motions with right intention, for the wrong reason. I learned lessons then, but didn't apply them to my existence.

As fate would have it, I was granted another chance, and came back in to AA.
Sick enough this time around to give more of a hoot than the last time I suppose. Fate also granted me this time the huge gift of a room full of longtimers with peace and contentment and spirituality streaming from them, as you so eloquently put it Cathy.

Cap3

Hey Cathy,i was the one that they talked about in the 12n12,when i first came to AA.From the book,consider next the plight of those who once had faith but have lost it.Sometimes A.A. comes harder to those who have lost or rejected faith than to those who have never had any faith at all.They have tried the way of faith and the way of no faith.Both ways have proved bitterly disappointing...This was me when i first came to recovery rooms.I can't, there are no words how to describe my bitterness towards God.Just say the word God,or even HP,i was in flames,with rage.But when i came to AA,i had,had it.I was sick of me,the world and its folks.My first meeting another talked about what God,has done in his life,i simply walked out.My cousin who brought me there came after me.We talked,,good word for this,,lol,because it was more that i was spewing all my rage out at him,for the next 5 days before i came back to the recovery rooms.Once i got that all out,my rage,i had made a decision.And that was,im going to "follow" this program.Everything else i ever did,or was taught to do,like my job,i always changed it somehow.Put my fingers in that pie.This however.This program was not and today is not one of those that i try to change at all.Take what ya want to ,leave the rest,never saw it until i came online.I missed it,and thats good,for me.Follow was my key.it was a long journey.I came.I came to.I came to believe.I thank God for this program.It was here,,in AA,that i was able to forgive those who taught me about God,seeing now they they meant well.It was in AA,that finally all that rage that i carried,inside of me,was lifted when i did steps 4-9,.,and continuing onto step 10-12.It was here to,that my i began my relationship with God.No longer asking that He do my will,but saying Your Will,not mine,be done.Getting out of my comfort,zone,and what i thought i knew.What i thought i knew wasn't working in my life.Stretching,growing,no longer stuck.I was willing.Open.Its all about changing.If i took what i wanted to and left the rest,how do i know how far,that i can learn,and grow.I can't because im stuck on what i think i know.Holding onto it.Would i then be controling of the limites to my growth?I think so.And heck,i was just to sick to take things out of program.Rarely have we seen a person fail who has "throughly" followed our path.This is what i saw,.And it works!!!!!
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care!!!!!!!!!!

splendra

I find it very difficult to understand that there are people who either have no concept of God or a belief that God has let them down there fore they want nothing to do with God.

I am pretty sure noboby can work the 12 steps without contact with a HP....

doorknob

I was raised in a secular family. The idea of "God" was not in any part of my upbringing. I've always found religious concepts and ideas to be interesting and studied them in college from an anthropological,sociological, and philosophical perspective. I decided for myself that there is some mystery that I will probably never know. That said, the idea of a god that watches over, listens to and answers the prayers of us humans, who have been on this earth but a speck of time seems incredibly absurd to me. I go to AA for the community and friendship and for sober support, like I come here. There is a whole group of AA's who feel like I do ( http://www.agnosticaanyc.org./ ). If this or the other alternatives mentioned were available in my area, I would surely go. But for now I'm learning to appreciate what I have. As far as the Steps are concerned, maybe using them is not possible in the traditional sense. But, here are the ones Agnostic AA uses:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
[Original: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.]

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
[Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.]

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
[Original: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.]

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
[Original: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.]

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
[Original: Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.]

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
[Original: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.]

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

And the Agnostic Preamble:

This group of A.A. attempts to maintain a tradition of free expression, and conduct a meeting where alcoholics may feel free to express any doubts or disbeliefs they may have, and to share their own personal form of spiritual experience, their search for it, or their rejection of it. We do not endorse or oppose any form of religion or atheism. Our only wish is to assure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in A.A. without having to accept anyone else’s beliefs or having to deny their own.

Doorknob

Time4Me11

Hi Cathy

I really appreciate your posts in general, and felt that I could finally respond to something here on the AA board...disclosure: I have been reading all the threads here, but too scared to post myself!

As I only have some 50 or so meetings under my belt (celebrating 60 days today), my responses are perhaps naive, but I think would reflect one experience of a newcomer...which is mostly based on the people I have come into contact with at those meetings and here.

1) As I feel that I came into those first meetings with a strong personal spirituality from which I could start with as my understanding of a higher power...AS A STARTING POINT...my problem has been with anyone I have come into contact with in person or read here, or through printed literature being passed out at meetings, etc... that in some way denegrates my sense of HP through their righteousnous. They invariably rely on quoting passages from the BB or other AA literature. This is simply confusing (not being a scholar of the lit), deeply discouraging and offputting...and IT DOES HAPPEN.

2) It is very clear to me that this program depends on the invovement of a HP. It is the reason that I am choosing to continue being involved, even as I also use cognitive methods and tools from other secular programs. I am made proud to be both a spiritual and intellectual person and need to use my strengths for my recovery.

3) Again, I can only truly learn from the folks I am in contact with...many of whom wholeheartedly support "taking what you like..." and pass that on to me. These are people with years and years of sobriety in AA. I have also met and been guided by those with your belief. I really haven't reached any firm opinion on this yet, but I wouldn't want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" ...so to speak, so it is better for me to think more openly about it until I know and understand more.

So, for me it really comes to the question of: Is there some sort of ideal or correct way to "work the program."...Something I am pretty sure I will never be able to live up to...OR, is there room for me to search and grow within its rooms.

Honestly, any experience I have of fanaticism or judgement has me moving away...my drinking gave me plenty of those.

I really think it is also important to note that when people approach the doors of AA, they are in a very fragile state...often in a great emotional and mental fog. In my opinion, it simply takes a little more time and gentleness to get to some of these questions and absolutes. Pushing them can lead to false committments, turning elsewhere or most tragically to picking up.

Have a good day.

Dan

Hi Time4,
I'm really glad you decided to share where you're at.
And congratulations, on this anniversary day for you.

Cathy31

Thanks you guys! This is such a nice thread! It reminds me again of why I love SR - and all of you guys!
Cathy31
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lulu70

Hey Cathy--Good questions, I think. And sorry about the quoting thing. It just helps me to answer your questions!!!

I agree 100%. My only problem is with people who think there is only ONE God and that we all have to find THAT God to really be "working the program."

Again, I agree. It is hard for me to respond in more detail without going in to my concept of this higher power, and I guess I really don't want to do that. Unfortunately, I believe the people who say "the HP concept is not for me, period" are still way to wrapped up in themselves to really be ready to recover. At least in the AA sense of recovery. DK--I do not mean you, and I don't really mean ANYONE on this site. Even the agnostic AA steps rely on spirituality and learning to look outside of yourself to find serenity.

This is where I tend to disagree. For me, the phrase "take what you need and leave the rest" refers to something all together different than the steps themselves. I turn to this idea most in meetings and on this site when I hear people trying to make it seem as though their interpretation of the steps or of an HP the ONLY ONE. IMHO, there IS a lot of room for interpretation in the steps. My sponsor had me follow the steps as written in the BB and the 12x12, which was really rather simple, but I know of others whose sponsors' took a different approach and had them do all sorts of things in addition to what is written. They did this because their sponsors' did it that way with them. Does that make sense? To me, what is of utmost importance is that I be HONEST, OPEN-MINDED, and WILLING. If I can do those things, the rest will fall into place.

I don't know if I made any sense. Because there are many places where AA is the ONLY option for recovery, I don't want people to feel like they can't work the program if they don't believe in God.

"Whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA to be there. And for that, I am responsible."

Hugs--

Dan

That's the tune in my ear.

Lunachic

Cathy31,

THANK YOU so much for this thread! I have to tell you, for me, this last month has been so FRUSTRATING to come to SR and go to the AA forum and read such confusion, backstabbin', even good loving leaders (in my opinion) being "banned" for standing up, believing in the program.

I have reached 3 months of sobriety, I couldn't have done this without God, The Program AA, and the people here in SR.

So you need to let me give ya' a big ol' hug because to be honest..I was to the point of not wanting to come back here. Faith restored, DON'T STOP! It's people like you, who help save other's lives, and keep our program alive.

Much Love and God Bless, Luna/Lynda

matt_w

My 2 pennies,

I had a lot of difficulty in the beginning with the HP concept. In fact, the only reason I was open-minded in the least was because I was convinced that I was dying and out of answers. I can't speak for anyone else, but my resistance to the notion of God was IMprecise, as it came from a variety of sources.

-scientific training and a reductionist worldview
-a focus on the evils that have been perpetrated in the name of God (without seeing any of the many positive aspects of sprituality and religion)
-a delusional, miserable, and frightened heart
-being diddled by a clergyman

My experience was that speaker meetings allowed me to swallow step 2...there were people who were once like me and are now better, who attributed this change to a power greater than themselves. Step 3, in the beginning, was simply a decision to do the rest of the steps. Thank God I didn't need to fully believe or understand my concept of God at the time. My faith and belief came by taking the program of action in the rest of the steps. That is my understanding of what a spiritual awakening is. I believe such an awakening is guaranteed as a result of working the steps, and I also believe that there are as many kinds of spiritual awakenings as there are people.

Cathy, I would suggest that maybe you ask your God for a little more tolerance and understanding of those who have a harder time with the god-concept than you do, if only because this lack of understanding will limit your ability to work with the agnostic or atheist newcomer.

Best,

NoMoBeer

Great thread Cathy! Lots of passion and fire -- I love it.

I still believe that if it's not in the book, it probably doesn't belong in my program. That being said, I try to keep an open mind and see where other self-help or literature fits into my program, but it always comes back to the Big Book.

I had NO PROBLEM with a HP, I was done -- and the way I ran my life just wasn't working, so I had to simplify and surrender. I just read yesterday that we used to surrender to a Higher Power -- alcohol. Now we have to surrender to another HP -- God as we understand Him. That makes sense and keeps it simple for my brain (which surely likes to complicate things).

As for the "take what you like and leave the rest," that's one of those sayings I don't dig too much. The program is outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you work the steps off the wall, you'll have an "off the wall" program. You can't work them out of the 12X12, that's just a guide to help enhance the BB. I truly believe I need the whole program. The meetings I go to I believe are all about recovery -- the solution -- not the problem...

Great topic, Cathy -- nice to discuss AA without beating the crap out of each other!!!!


Ken

Andy F

Hi Cathy

There is a big difference between people expressing their own personal beliefs for their own lives, and trying to persuade others to adopt your own beliefs.

I have no problems with people talking about jesus or religion at meetings. Their personal lives and values are not for me to make. I have no problem with people who live the 12 steps. Again, none of my business. Friction results when one party is not content to simply live their own way, but insist that someone else adopts their views also.

tyler

Hi Cathy,

When I first read your post my immediate response was to argue with you about it. Where do you get off, blah blah blah!!! But the more I thought about it the more I started to agree with you, one point in particular.

"it is also OK to go along to AA meetings having NO conception of a higher power...but you have to be open to getting one eventually (as many people do, sometimes only after YEARS and YEARS, but they keep at it) If your attitude is I think the HP concept is NOT for me, period. Then AA is not for you, period. You should then try LifeBoat, RR, SMART, etc etc etc etc. THe opportunities are endless. But AA and no HP - see, it's a spiritual programme - and no open mindedness to RECEIVE and RECOGNISE a HP when the time is right...well IMHO it's just not the programme for you."

For the sake of Doorknob, it is LifeRing, not LifeBoat ,but I digress. I much like my friend DK have not come to my conclusions about a lack of an HP in my life lightly. I also have studied many different relgions and phliosophies before comming to the set of beliefs that I have arrived at. That said, it does not necessarily mean that I am right, but it is what I believe. I had recently been considering giving the 12-step way (AA or in my personal case NA, I consider them fairly interchangeable) another chance. But I am not willing to sacrifice some of my fundemental beliefs for the sake of "working the program." Therefor, in AA terms, perhaps I am not "willing." There are several core beliefs of AA that I just do not agree with, and let me emphisis I, not trying to push my beliefs onto anyone else. I do not think addiction is a disease, I consider it more of a condition. I definately do not feel that I am powerless over it, in fact I feel that I am the only one who can exact any power over it. No one or nothing forced me to take a drink or drug. I can't deny that the urges are incredibly powerful, if they weren't I wouldn't have given up so much for the sake of being high, but I can deny them. I have to learn to change how I react to these urges, various feelings, emotions and situations. And of course, I don't believe that I must surrender to a HP that I don't believe in in order to stay sober. I don't say these things to enflame anyone or belittle anyone. I have much respect for 12-step programs, they help many people. I do take major issue with people who say it is the only way to get sober. The fact is most people get sober without the help of any program at all, they just do it. For myself, I think at least to start, I need the help of some sort of program. Through this site I discovered SMART(Dancing bananna for SR!!! ), a program that I can really put my arms around and understand. This is where I think my efforts should go. I shouldn't continue to try to fit a square peg (me) into a round hole (12-step programs), nor should I expect the program to change for my sake. Obviously it works for some people, these boards are evidence of that, but by viewing these boards, it is also obvious it does not work for others. Like they say in the rooms, the defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expection different results. If AA/NA doesn't work for me, that is OK. Like you said there are other programs out there. Unfortunately those programs don't nearly the recogination that AA/NA do. I think court ordered AA meetings are a travisty of justice. I'm not saying they don't help some people, but if you are going to "order" treatment (which in itself is a pretty shaky concept) they person should be presented with choices. Now I'm getting myself off on a tangent, so I will try to reel it in here! BTW the only reason I am posting these opinions on the AA board is in responce to the original post. Normally in the interest of keeping the peace I keep my beliefs on this to the "Substance Abuse" or Newcommers boards. And again, I am not trying to flame anyone, actually I want to thank you because it has clarified alot of things for me. So anyway, that's all I've got. I wish everyone to find their own way.

Gabe

Hence the phrase "Live and Let Live".
Acceptance is an integral part of any recovery program.
I'm on the Anon side of the fence, but it always boggles my mind when I see those on the addict/alcoholic side try to shove "their version of the program" down someone's throat.
The way I see it, there is no "one way".
There is only the way it works for each individual.
The magic of the AA program, that I have had the priviledge of observing for over twenty years...is the fellowship of the men and women that come together with the common goal of helping eachother stay sober, one day at a time.
It's not about who's way is right.
It's about reaching out a hand and a heart when it's needed.
I'm not sure I've ever seen preaching save a drunk who was on the verge of having a slip.
But I've seen compassion and understanding do it time and time again.

Don S

I agree! Very interesting thread, Cathy -- thanks.
Don S

Wilky

VERY WELL SAID, CATHY!

I am just glad you said it and not me. If I would have said it...the thread would have been locked down to keep the boards bandwidth from exceeding its limitation.

Wilky