Tradition Three - Short Form
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Tradition Three - Short Form
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Today I was reading the chapter in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book concerning the third tradition. Perhaps this is the best known tradition as even many non AA friends seem to quote it at times. Really not sure, just an unfounded opinion.
I found the initial attempts at exclusivity interesting, at least as reported in this part of the literature.
" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out."
The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."
The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."
Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"
I claim very little knowledge of the Traditions other than an understanding of them becoming the glue that held and holds the groups and fellowship together.
I am certainly grateful no one asked me if I fit into the category of pure alcoholic - I count 4/5 of the above categories I'd fall into on any given day.
Thoughts?
Today I was reading the chapter in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book concerning the third tradition. Perhaps this is the best known tradition as even many non AA friends seem to quote it at times. Really not sure, just an unfounded opinion.
I found the initial attempts at exclusivity interesting, at least as reported in this part of the literature.
" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out."
The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."
The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."
Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"
I claim very little knowledge of the Traditions other than an understanding of them becoming the glue that held and holds the groups and fellowship together.
I am certainly grateful no one asked me if I fit into the category of pure alcoholic - I count 4/5 of the above categories I'd fall into on any given day.
Thoughts?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
I am truly grateful for the traditions, well worth reading further into the history of their development.
I believe they are from the hard fought experience of what doesn't work...and I have proved out many of them in my own experience in recent times...for example setting up a new group from scratch with close friends.
Rule 62!
P
I believe they are from the hard fought experience of what doesn't work...and I have proved out many of them in my own experience in recent times...for example setting up a new group from scratch with close friends.
Rule 62!
P
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
My take is that this tradition was designed to ensure no alcoholic was kept out, but it is often used to admit non alcoholics.
Another interpretation I see the only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking.
Another interpretation I see the only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,945
Tradition one no AA can compel another AA to do anything. Tradition Five SHOEMAKER stick to thy last better to do one thing Supremely then many things poorly. I love the Traditions ten no opinion on outside issues like mood and mind altering psychotropics like caffeine and nicotine.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
My interpretation of the original tradition was that early members used to exclude anyone with "other problems"...as in alcoholism (or potential alcoholism) and other problems.
Homeless folk, drug users, ladies (or gents) of the night, people with mental health problems, anyone 'too complicated' for this simple program to work, or anyone that might bring external judgement down upon this tiny band of people who were trying to foster a community in their home town.
I have met some strange types in AA...."Alcoholics" that have never taken a drink....folks who's main and perhaps only problem was abuse of prescription medication...folks with food issues who also drank just a bit too much.
I have never been a fan of diagnosing alcoholism (or lack of alcoholism) in others....particularly when it becomes "You might be an alcoholic, but I'm a REAL alcoholic!"
Just some further thoughts....thankfully not my business most of the time!
P
Homeless folk, drug users, ladies (or gents) of the night, people with mental health problems, anyone 'too complicated' for this simple program to work, or anyone that might bring external judgement down upon this tiny band of people who were trying to foster a community in their home town.
I have met some strange types in AA...."Alcoholics" that have never taken a drink....folks who's main and perhaps only problem was abuse of prescription medication...folks with food issues who also drank just a bit too much.
I have never been a fan of diagnosing alcoholism (or lack of alcoholism) in others....particularly when it becomes "You might be an alcoholic, but I'm a REAL alcoholic!"
Just some further thoughts....thankfully not my business most of the time!
P
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
On page 92 the big book gives the sponsor (12 stepper these days) the responsibility to satisfy themself that the prospect is a real alcoholic. Persumably that suggestion is made to try and ensure non alcoholics are not introduced to the fellowship.
In this modern age with so many more addictions, there are a vast number of alcoholics who have more than alcoholism to contend with. Almost universally, they believe alcoholism and drug addiction, for example, are exactly the same disease, and therefore one need not be alcoholic to join the fellowship.
To someone like me, just a plain old alcoholic, the drug world is an alien place and the substances used, the reason for using, and the whole social structure around them is just plain wierd. Makes no sense to me at all.
But I am in the minority. A good few years ago, before NA became established over here, AA was very flexible about who attended the meetings. In the town I was in the meetings became over run with a particularly nasty group of addicts. It got so bad that most of us left. I didn't get back to AA until I got back to my home town about a year and a half later. Pretty sad when the real alcoholics are driven out of the meeting because the only requirement for membership.... and we can talk about drugs if we want and swear as much as we like and you can shut the %$#ck up.
Why did we all leave. Maybe some of us thought it was none of our business. What we didn't think of was the alcoholic newcomer.
In this modern age with so many more addictions, there are a vast number of alcoholics who have more than alcoholism to contend with. Almost universally, they believe alcoholism and drug addiction, for example, are exactly the same disease, and therefore one need not be alcoholic to join the fellowship.
To someone like me, just a plain old alcoholic, the drug world is an alien place and the substances used, the reason for using, and the whole social structure around them is just plain wierd. Makes no sense to me at all.
But I am in the minority. A good few years ago, before NA became established over here, AA was very flexible about who attended the meetings. In the town I was in the meetings became over run with a particularly nasty group of addicts. It got so bad that most of us left. I didn't get back to AA until I got back to my home town about a year and a half later. Pretty sad when the real alcoholics are driven out of the meeting because the only requirement for membership.... and we can talk about drugs if we want and swear as much as we like and you can shut the %$#ck up.
Why did we all leave. Maybe some of us thought it was none of our business. What we didn't think of was the alcoholic newcomer.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
one thing is for sure,you can`t get sober unless you want too
most people here who come to AA for reasons other than sobriety usually weed themselves out after a while.
tradition 3 is the only leg a sicko has to hide behind,and I am talking about the troublemakers here.Sure,no one can be expelled from AA as a whole,but you let a few of those sicko`s show up at certain meetings and they won`t be admitted.
People have been banned from certain meetings.
in some areas let a man show up at a women's meeting and see him leave before the meeting.
I say this to make a point,meetings are free to do what they wish but if someone wishes to live those 12 steps,no one can stop them.
I had a sponsor once who got kicked out of a group because of his behavior,and how it was badly affecting the group.
The group met,and decided he had to go,so he went.
most people here who come to AA for reasons other than sobriety usually weed themselves out after a while.
tradition 3 is the only leg a sicko has to hide behind,and I am talking about the troublemakers here.Sure,no one can be expelled from AA as a whole,but you let a few of those sicko`s show up at certain meetings and they won`t be admitted.
People have been banned from certain meetings.
in some areas let a man show up at a women's meeting and see him leave before the meeting.
I say this to make a point,meetings are free to do what they wish but if someone wishes to live those 12 steps,no one can stop them.
I had a sponsor once who got kicked out of a group because of his behavior,and how it was badly affecting the group.
The group met,and decided he had to go,so he went.
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Interesting comments......
Recently, in our smallish town a closed meeting group was formed. This was in an effort to focus on alcohol as the self identifying primary addiction.
I have not been exposed to many troublemakers or nasty groups
. Would closed meetings have helped with these issues?
Gottalife - idk if it's our responsibility to qualify another, is it?!? Shouldn't we just share our story and leave the next step up to the prospect and our HP>
pg 92 - And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can - if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself.
Fini - That's a great name for a group. If I hadn't read that in the 12 x 12 I'd never have understood it's meaning. Awesome......
thanks to all who share their thoughts
Recently, in our smallish town a closed meeting group was formed. This was in an effort to focus on alcohol as the self identifying primary addiction.
I have not been exposed to many troublemakers or nasty groups
. Would closed meetings have helped with these issues?
Gottalife - idk if it's our responsibility to qualify another, is it?!? Shouldn't we just share our story and leave the next step up to the prospect and our HP>
pg 92 - And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can - if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself.
Fini - That's a great name for a group. If I hadn't read that in the 12 x 12 I'd never have understood it's meaning. Awesome......
thanks to all who share their thoughts
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by Fly N Buy 
Interesting comments......
Recently, in our smallish town a closed meeting group was formed. This was in an effort to focus on alcohol as the self identifying primary addiction.
I have not been exposed to many troublemakers or nasty groups
. Would closed meetings have helped with these issues?
Gottalife - idk if it's our responsibility to qualify another, is it?!? Shouldn't we just share our story and leave the next step up to the prospect and our HP>
pg 92 - And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can - if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself.
Fini - That's a great name for a group. If I hadn't read that in the 12 x 12 I'd never have understood it's meaning. Awesome......
thanks to all who share their thoughts
Recently, in our smallish town a closed meeting group was formed. This was in an effort to focus on alcohol as the self identifying primary addiction.
I have not been exposed to many troublemakers or nasty groups
. Would closed meetings have helped with these issues?
Gottalife - idk if it's our responsibility to qualify another, is it?!? Shouldn't we just share our story and leave the next step up to the prospect and our HP>
pg 92 - And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can - if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself.
Fini - That's a great name for a group. If I hadn't read that in the 12 x 12 I'd never have understood it's meaning. Awesome......
thanks to all who share their thoughts
Your special closed meeting. If the other meetings are doing anything other than that, they are not AA meetings.
Closed meetings didn't help because they had a desire to stop drinking, so they claimed, and therefore could not be kept out.
The book says it is our responsibility. It is not about branding someone an alcoholic. They draw their own conclusions on that. It is about whether we should offer AA membership or not. In the Pamphlet Problems Other Than Alcohol, it clearly states that we cannot offer AA membership to a non alcoholic. I have nothing to offer a non alcoholic.
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Right Mike - but non alcoholics may attend open meetings while the are not suppose to attend closed meetings.
I had never read the pamphlet you referenced. I appreciate it and have read/bookmarked it.
I had never read the pamphlet you referenced. I appreciate it and have read/bookmarked it.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Fly N Buy,
i left out the 'plain': Queers, Plain Crackpots and Fallen Women.
a lot of people almost gasp when they first hear it, as clearly that went right by them in the BB.
and they might have a plain ordinary whoppee party...who knows.
i have no issue with all kinds attending an open meeting. and at mine, we do specifically say all are welcome and to pease limit your share to your problems with alcohol.
but that is not what people do. so no, the meeting does not insist onits own guidelines, which i cind challenging, to put it diplomatically.
the majority of people are fairly young, and see alladdictions as equivalent and have several.
last week someone celebrated her first year anniversary and opened with saying that her alcoholism had beenn the form of an MJ addiction.
boggles the mind.
i left out the 'plain': Queers, Plain Crackpots and Fallen Women.
a lot of people almost gasp when they first hear it, as clearly that went right by them in the BB.
and they might have a plain ordinary whoppee party...who knows.
i have no issue with all kinds attending an open meeting. and at mine, we do specifically say all are welcome and to pease limit your share to your problems with alcohol.
but that is not what people do. so no, the meeting does not insist onits own guidelines, which i cind challenging, to put it diplomatically.
the majority of people are fairly young, and see alladdictions as equivalent and have several.
last week someone celebrated her first year anniversary and opened with saying that her alcoholism had beenn the form of an MJ addiction.
boggles the mind.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Fini, I could be wrong, I frequently am, but I don't think the terms " Queers, Plain Crackpots and Fallen Women", appear in the big book. Maybe in the 12x12? Or else it went right by me 
I have noticed more and more meeting formats including soe kind of statement about sticking to alcoholism in sharing. Some also say while anybody is welcome at an open AA meeting, it is asked that only alcoholics share.
My preference is for open meetings because of the greater opportunities to carry the message through third parties. I am not sure I see a lot of value in a closed meeting these days.
I have noticed more and more meeting formats including soe kind of statement about sticking to alcoholism in sharing. Some also say while anybody is welcome at an open AA meeting, it is asked that only alcoholics share.
My preference is for open meetings because of the greater opportunities to carry the message through third parties. I am not sure I see a lot of value in a closed meeting these days.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
nah, it didn't' go right by you.
my mistake entirely.
i've never been to a closed meeting, but sometimes wish for one. or to start one. i get tired of all the shares about other drugs and ...and then end up in a dilemma with myself about being intolerant, irritated, .....and at one point picked up the little "problems other than alcohol" pamphlet and put a few copies on the table. didn't really go over well.
and i do struggle with whether recovery via step stuff has anything to do, really, with whatever the drug was/is.
though i do not feel i could or would want to sponsor a drug addict, i do question whether identification about the drug is relevant. identification about an inability to quit, stay that way and be 'recovered' seems more relevant.
just sharing some inner questioning, which can change from day to day. not making an argument for or against.
my mistake entirely.
i've never been to a closed meeting, but sometimes wish for one. or to start one. i get tired of all the shares about other drugs and ...and then end up in a dilemma with myself about being intolerant, irritated, .....and at one point picked up the little "problems other than alcohol" pamphlet and put a few copies on the table. didn't really go over well.
and i do struggle with whether recovery via step stuff has anything to do, really, with whatever the drug was/is.
though i do not feel i could or would want to sponsor a drug addict, i do question whether identification about the drug is relevant. identification about an inability to quit, stay that way and be 'recovered' seems more relevant.
just sharing some inner questioning, which can change from day to day. not making an argument for or against.
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
With little contrary experience of disruptions in meetings from those whose primary addiction are drugs other than alcohol, I have a pretty open mind.
I heard a well known AA speaker say that drugs are alcohol we shoot (paraphrase) once and for now that works for me. There are NA meetings around town with one group having a club house, so maybe I am just not exposed to it.
My DOC while drinking was what have ya got......mostly. Love and tolerance is our creed. But, again I have not been in a situation as others have described.
Fini post makes sense to me today = though i do not feel i could or would want to sponsor a drug addict, i do question whether identification about the drug is relevant. identification about an inability to quit, stay that way and be 'recovered' seems more relevant
I heard a well known AA speaker say that drugs are alcohol we shoot (paraphrase) once and for now that works for me. There are NA meetings around town with one group having a club house, so maybe I am just not exposed to it.
My DOC while drinking was what have ya got......mostly. Love and tolerance is our creed. But, again I have not been in a situation as others have described.
Fini post makes sense to me today = though i do not feel i could or would want to sponsor a drug addict, i do question whether identification about the drug is relevant. identification about an inability to quit, stay that way and be 'recovered' seems more relevant
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
I cant remember where I read it- might have been pass it on or AA comes of age, but then again it coulda been somehwere else- but I recall something about Bill and lois takin a roadtrip here and there and hittin meetings. finding meetings had already had their own requirements/rules before the traditions came about?
something about if all of the requirements/rules from all of them groups were combined for a meeting, no one would be able to attend a meeting or be a member of AA?
something about if all of the requirements/rules from all of them groups were combined for a meeting, no one would be able to attend a meeting or be a member of AA?
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
TS - I've seen/read something like that - might have been in Bill W documentary I watched a few years back. There was a comment in it I recall; one "group" in VA (I think) allowed pitchers of beer to be served!
Wow........
Wow........
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by Fly N Buy
Fini post makes sense to me today = though i do not feel i could or would want to sponsor a drug addict, i do question whether identification about the drug is relevant. identification about an inability to quit, stay that way and be 'recovered' seems more relevant
Thinking of alcohol as different from other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse. Before we came to NA, many of us viewed alcohol separately, but we cannot afford to be confused about this. Alcohol is a drug. We are people with the disease of addiction who must abstain from all drugs in order to recover.
just my opinion but when the DOC is removed and either druggies or alkies focus on the thinking, the similarities show-identifying/relating to the problems many of us have in common.
unfortunately, some pride and ego get in the way there.
or maybe its that dangerous uniqueness?
Fly, I thin you and me may have had similar experiences- yup, alcohol was my DOC, but if ya got something else that will help me meet my goal- complete obliteration of thought- then what ya got and how much ya got?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Here's something controversial... 
The book, like many things in life, can be full of contradictions if we read each line literally...
Satisfy yourself that your prospect is a real alcoholic...
But also be careful not to brand him an alcoholic...the desire must come from within
We can read these things to suit our purpose
Personally Tradition 3 says to me it's none of my business who attends a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. The only requirement for MEMBERSHIP is a desire to stop drinking.
When it comes to individually taking my time to take someone through the programme, offering my guidance as a sponsor...I am gonna be fairly sure first that their problem is alcohol. I have previously gently suggested to some that they find another sponsor or fellowship...because I had nothing to offer them from my own experience...
Still none of my business if they attend a meeting.
I am not judge jury and executioner of who is or isn't alcoholic, real alcoholic, or who should or shouldn't attend meetings. The only choice/responsibility I have is wether I can or should spend time to help someone to the program.
This is only my own view based on my own experience. How anyone else works this thing is also their business
P
The book, like many things in life, can be full of contradictions if we read each line literally...
Satisfy yourself that your prospect is a real alcoholic...
But also be careful not to brand him an alcoholic...the desire must come from within
We can read these things to suit our purpose
Personally Tradition 3 says to me it's none of my business who attends a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. The only requirement for MEMBERSHIP is a desire to stop drinking.
When it comes to individually taking my time to take someone through the programme, offering my guidance as a sponsor...I am gonna be fairly sure first that their problem is alcohol. I have previously gently suggested to some that they find another sponsor or fellowship...because I had nothing to offer them from my own experience...
Still none of my business if they attend a meeting.
I am not judge jury and executioner of who is or isn't alcoholic, real alcoholic, or who should or shouldn't attend meetings. The only choice/responsibility I have is wether I can or should spend time to help someone to the program.
This is only my own view based on my own experience. How anyone else works this thing is also their business
P
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
I am fortunate the short form was not applied to me when I arrived. I was beyond desire to stop drinking, I just wanted the misery to stop. Members knew the long form which states our membership,ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism, and it was obvious to anyone that that was the case with me.
The long form also defines who can form an AA group. Any two or more alcoholics gathered together ...... can call themselves an AA group......
Interesting about NA Tomsteve. I take their point about getting the idea that alcohol is a drug too. We see that principle demonstrated in AA every day with folks getting hooked into other drugs, both illegal and prescription. Probably when I came in, prescription meds like Valium were the bigger problem for alcoholics.
If you offered me any drug other than alcohol, I would tell you what to do with it. I tried dope once, a complete waste of money as I used it alcoholically, and they put me on Ativan in treatment once. After three days when I realised what it was doing to me, I refused to take any more. I have never had a problem refusing drugs because they do not create any desire. My motive in drinking was to be larger than life. My drugee friends seemed to want to escape from life. I never understood that.
The long form also defines who can form an AA group. Any two or more alcoholics gathered together ...... can call themselves an AA group......
Interesting about NA Tomsteve. I take their point about getting the idea that alcohol is a drug too. We see that principle demonstrated in AA every day with folks getting hooked into other drugs, both illegal and prescription. Probably when I came in, prescription meds like Valium were the bigger problem for alcoholics.
If you offered me any drug other than alcohol, I would tell you what to do with it. I tried dope once, a complete waste of money as I used it alcoholically, and they put me on Ativan in treatment once. After three days when I realised what it was doing to me, I refused to take any more. I have never had a problem refusing drugs because they do not create any desire. My motive in drinking was to be larger than life. My drugee friends seemed to want to escape from life. I never understood that.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
