That Ain't in the Book!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
I'm finding that quality recovery is a balanced blend (like a great recipe) of good ingredients that if mixed correctly produce extraordinarily good results.
Prayer, quiet time, step work, meetings, daily readings, circle of recovering friends, helping newcomers, listening to oldtimers, slogans, traditions, concepts et al... not necessarily in that order.
If I let the quality of my ingredients slide or don't have the discipline to follow the recipe as suggested, my finished product is compromised and sometimes inedible.
Hope you're all having a great day.
Bob R
Prayer, quiet time, step work, meetings, daily readings, circle of recovering friends, helping newcomers, listening to oldtimers, slogans, traditions, concepts et al... not necessarily in that order.
If I let the quality of my ingredients slide or don't have the discipline to follow the recipe as suggested, my finished product is compromised and sometimes inedible.
Hope you're all having a great day.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Hi, soberrecovery wished me a happy birthday, so I'm came for a visit. 
Forgot all about this place.
I'm concerned with what AA purists and extremists bring to this program. I stated an opinion that was in conflict with what one of these such people said a while back. At a meeting a few weeks later he qualified and expressed some burning resentment he had with certain people in the program (me). I afterwards wanted to speak to him to assure him we were both on the same team, and, well... he wasn't having it. Said, "No. We're not on the same team." Because I didn't agree with his statements. He left me no choice but to agree. The purpose of my being in AA is to stay sober, and help another alcoholic to achieve sobriety. His was to prove there is only one way to get sober. The way he sees it as laid out in the big book.
So... what was shared that annoyed this guy? He responded to a fairly new member who spoke of fighting with her husband, that the meeting wasn't about sharing our problems. It was about sharing our recovery, and that too many people come to meetings sharing negativity and complaining, as opposed to talking about what it says in the big book. And that that's NOT what AA is about. I raised my hand and shared that one of the best tools I've used in my 27 years of recovery was that of sharing my experience, good and bad, at meetings. By doing so, when I was having relationship problems I got excellent sober advice on exactly how to deal with them. Same when I was having other family problems, sex problems, work problems, even car problems. And when my cat dies it's going to hurt like hell, and I am absolutely going to share about it. People with experience dealing with all these things were able to show me how THEY applied these principles in helping them to grow and walk through whatever they needed to, without picking up a drink. Many times practical advice is needed, as not everyone is going to be blessed in a way that they'll be able to apply every spiritual principle laid out in the bigbook to every problem that comes up. And I think we often lose sight of the fact that many are still not willing to even consider doing that.
To think that the big book is the be all and end all of all recovery is incredibly sad and short sighted. The fact that there is still only like a 30% success rate in AA should be enough for anyone to realize there's still some growth to come about. I know, if they worked the program the way the extremists want, the way the big book says!!!!!!, then there would be 100% success. That's not happenig. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about staying away from the first drink, and helping others to do the same.
That being said, I don't really care if something that's helpful is backed by the bigbook, and I think it's hurtful to try and convince people to disbelieve anything is not there. Some of the statements in that article completely saved my butt. Others I've never heard. Some I disagree with. But if they help someone stay away from a drink another 5 minutes, then they're great by me. I'm going to address a few that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here without.
Ninety meetings in ninety days - my thought when I first arrived was I'd go once or twice a month. While I didn't quite make 90 in 90, the goal of that had me going to a minimum of 5 meetings a week at the beginning. Without the repetition of people saying 90 in 90 I'd have made nowhere near as many.
Keep coming back, eventually it will rub off on you - keep coming until you want to come, was the version of this I heard. It also helped me immensely. I was incredibly uncomfortable in AA for the first 6 months. Wasn't until after a year that I started to settle in, and it indeed started to rub off on me.
You only work one step a year. take your time to work the steps -. for those who can't or won't do otherwise I think that's great. in 12 years they'll have a really solid program. i've seen countless people stay sober for a lot longer than that without consciously working any of the steps. some of them started diving in well after a decade of sobriety.
don't make any major decisions in the first year - while I realise some people have no choice in this particular area, this let me off the hook for finding a job or doing anything else that may have caused me undue stress. it also gave me something conrete to look forward to after my first year, and helped me to feel I need to really get on the ball now. I was useless in my first year. It was best that I put that time into building a solid sober foundation.
Just do the next right thing - an extension of keep it simple. very practical for people who complicate the crap out of stuff. like myself.
if all i do is stay sober, than it's been a good day - my sponsor used to say this. while i hated hearing it, and didn't agree, it truly helped me to keep things in perspective. I think it applies completely to early recovery. if i were to say that today, well...
I have a choice not to drink today - i absolutely have that choice. I can drink all day long if I choose. the obsession for me has been lifted long ago. to say I can't drink, to anyone, is simply not true.
It's my opinion that, or i don't know anything about the big book, but this is the way I do it - some people can't wrap their heads around what it says in the book. yet they manage to stay sober. and happy. yes. as much as i know a lot of people would like to believe they don't, they do. and they can hep others like themselves.
We must change playmates, playgournds and playtings - never heard that before, but i like it. if i hung out at bars doing the same things with the same people as when i drank, i'd drink again. eventually.
Think through the drink - about 2 weeks into recovery I was going to drink. the tiny little voice of reason told me at least call my sponsor first. i did. we talked. he walked me through the absolute best case scenario if i were to drink on that night. he brought me straight through with great detail right up to my waking up the next day. he asked what time it would be. about 4pm. he asked how I felt.... it worked. I lost my desire to drink that night. I used this technique many times after that, and with other life issues also.
This is turning into a book. I'll quit it now. I really wish that people would stop thinking in terms of who's right and who's wrong and just start thinking about what works. What works for one person doesn't always work for another, and I'll repeat... many people have stayed sober without ever cracking open a big book. I've seen it, and while people can argue it all they want, it exists as fact.
Forgot all about this place.I'm concerned with what AA purists and extremists bring to this program. I stated an opinion that was in conflict with what one of these such people said a while back. At a meeting a few weeks later he qualified and expressed some burning resentment he had with certain people in the program (me). I afterwards wanted to speak to him to assure him we were both on the same team, and, well... he wasn't having it. Said, "No. We're not on the same team." Because I didn't agree with his statements. He left me no choice but to agree. The purpose of my being in AA is to stay sober, and help another alcoholic to achieve sobriety. His was to prove there is only one way to get sober. The way he sees it as laid out in the big book.
So... what was shared that annoyed this guy? He responded to a fairly new member who spoke of fighting with her husband, that the meeting wasn't about sharing our problems. It was about sharing our recovery, and that too many people come to meetings sharing negativity and complaining, as opposed to talking about what it says in the big book. And that that's NOT what AA is about. I raised my hand and shared that one of the best tools I've used in my 27 years of recovery was that of sharing my experience, good and bad, at meetings. By doing so, when I was having relationship problems I got excellent sober advice on exactly how to deal with them. Same when I was having other family problems, sex problems, work problems, even car problems. And when my cat dies it's going to hurt like hell, and I am absolutely going to share about it. People with experience dealing with all these things were able to show me how THEY applied these principles in helping them to grow and walk through whatever they needed to, without picking up a drink. Many times practical advice is needed, as not everyone is going to be blessed in a way that they'll be able to apply every spiritual principle laid out in the bigbook to every problem that comes up. And I think we often lose sight of the fact that many are still not willing to even consider doing that.
To think that the big book is the be all and end all of all recovery is incredibly sad and short sighted. The fact that there is still only like a 30% success rate in AA should be enough for anyone to realize there's still some growth to come about. I know, if they worked the program the way the extremists want, the way the big book says!!!!!!, then there would be 100% success. That's not happenig. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about staying away from the first drink, and helping others to do the same.
That being said, I don't really care if something that's helpful is backed by the bigbook, and I think it's hurtful to try and convince people to disbelieve anything is not there. Some of the statements in that article completely saved my butt. Others I've never heard. Some I disagree with. But if they help someone stay away from a drink another 5 minutes, then they're great by me. I'm going to address a few that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here without.
Ninety meetings in ninety days - my thought when I first arrived was I'd go once or twice a month. While I didn't quite make 90 in 90, the goal of that had me going to a minimum of 5 meetings a week at the beginning. Without the repetition of people saying 90 in 90 I'd have made nowhere near as many.
Keep coming back, eventually it will rub off on you - keep coming until you want to come, was the version of this I heard. It also helped me immensely. I was incredibly uncomfortable in AA for the first 6 months. Wasn't until after a year that I started to settle in, and it indeed started to rub off on me.
You only work one step a year. take your time to work the steps -. for those who can't or won't do otherwise I think that's great. in 12 years they'll have a really solid program. i've seen countless people stay sober for a lot longer than that without consciously working any of the steps. some of them started diving in well after a decade of sobriety.
don't make any major decisions in the first year - while I realise some people have no choice in this particular area, this let me off the hook for finding a job or doing anything else that may have caused me undue stress. it also gave me something conrete to look forward to after my first year, and helped me to feel I need to really get on the ball now. I was useless in my first year. It was best that I put that time into building a solid sober foundation.
Just do the next right thing - an extension of keep it simple. very practical for people who complicate the crap out of stuff. like myself.
if all i do is stay sober, than it's been a good day - my sponsor used to say this. while i hated hearing it, and didn't agree, it truly helped me to keep things in perspective. I think it applies completely to early recovery. if i were to say that today, well...
I have a choice not to drink today - i absolutely have that choice. I can drink all day long if I choose. the obsession for me has been lifted long ago. to say I can't drink, to anyone, is simply not true.
It's my opinion that, or i don't know anything about the big book, but this is the way I do it - some people can't wrap their heads around what it says in the book. yet they manage to stay sober. and happy. yes. as much as i know a lot of people would like to believe they don't, they do. and they can hep others like themselves.
We must change playmates, playgournds and playtings - never heard that before, but i like it. if i hung out at bars doing the same things with the same people as when i drank, i'd drink again. eventually.
Think through the drink - about 2 weeks into recovery I was going to drink. the tiny little voice of reason told me at least call my sponsor first. i did. we talked. he walked me through the absolute best case scenario if i were to drink on that night. he brought me straight through with great detail right up to my waking up the next day. he asked what time it would be. about 4pm. he asked how I felt.... it worked. I lost my desire to drink that night. I used this technique many times after that, and with other life issues also.
This is turning into a book. I'll quit it now.
I really wish that people would stop thinking in terms of who's right and who's wrong and just start thinking about what works. What works for one person doesn't always work for another, and I'll repeat... many people have stayed sober without ever cracking open a big book. I've seen it, and while people can argue it all they want, it exists as fact. Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Well Happy Birthday Joe.
Nice take. I think the emergence of strict Big Book adherence is mostly due to the success ratings you mentioned.
God casts a pretty wide net in my opinion. It all has its place, including the purists and extremism.
I don't know how they capture statistics for this success rating thing, I heard once it was done by chip sales. But in an "anonymous" program how do they determine it ?
I don't know.
The fellowship existed before the book, but the book is a chronicle of how that fellowship succeeded. I don't think it should be disregarded, nor minimized.
Lastly, I don't think the word "Nazi" should be pinned on people who are sincere in their program and efforts to help "by the book".
Nice take. I think the emergence of strict Big Book adherence is mostly due to the success ratings you mentioned.
God casts a pretty wide net in my opinion. It all has its place, including the purists and extremism.
I don't know how they capture statistics for this success rating thing, I heard once it was done by chip sales. But in an "anonymous" program how do they determine it ?
I don't know.
The fellowship existed before the book, but the book is a chronicle of how that fellowship succeeded. I don't think it should be disregarded, nor minimized.
Lastly, I don't think the word "Nazi" should be pinned on people who are sincere in their program and efforts to help "by the book".
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by TheJungianThing 
Lastly, I don't think the word "Nazi" should be pinned on people who are sincere in their program and efforts to help "by the book".
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
So we must be careful... and the Big Book discusses this in "Working with others"... Not to alienate but neither should we water down the message... maybe a spoonful of sugar. There are some BB traditionalists (my preferred term, 
) here that do that very well.
) here that do that very well.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
Nah, not Nazi. Sounds like this guy might be a "dry drunk" :rotfxko or something and might consider reviewing the text himself. Perhaps you can gently suggest he re-read page 89.
AA Big Book -- Chapter 7
At least me, as an alcoholic, I'm a rebellious type. If someone was forcing me to drink in a certain bar, I'd fight not to and go to another one. Likewise, if someone was preventing me from getting into a bar - I'd be inclined to argue my case to the point of being helped out :rotfxko
AA Big Book -- Chapter 7
Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. Unfortunately a lot of prejudice exists. You will be handicapped if you arouse it. Ministers and doctors are competent and you can learn much from them if you wish, but it happens that because of your own drinking experience you can be uniquely useful to other alcoholics. So cooperate; never criticize. To be helpful is our only aim.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Arundel Maine
Posts: 78
Thank you TheJungianThing. I have been in AA for over 35 years. I sometimes I feel like I don't even recognize the meetings anymore. It makes me sad. There is this not so nice faction that is always trying to tell us what is AA and what is not. The AA police. They really need to take a chill pill. How about "walking the talk"? OOPs, ;probably not in the book.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
You have to admit, though, some of the slogans leave much to be desired. At my first meeting, someone told me "if you want what we have, just do what we did," and then I hear "the farther I get from my last drink, the closer I get to my next drunk."
I remember thinking "yeah, sure, I really, really want that."
I remember thinking "yeah, sure, I really, really want that."
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 449
I've always heard it within the context of an old timer getting ready to lay down some serious knowledge and wisdom but wanting to not come across as a know it all or too preachy, so he "levels the field" so to speak with something like that or ---
"Hey, I'm only an arms length away from the next drink".... but .....
Then he or she will try to serve something up that's helpful, but might hurt someone's feelings. Some call it false humility but the intent was there to remain a humble servant, gentle and kind. That's how I took it anyway.
Long term sobriety, like sober for 20,30,40 some odd years and some people apparently do drink after long periods of sobriety, does seem to be a bit of a challenge and something that requires vigilance. So to me it speaks of an awareness to remain vigilant.
It's interesting to note that when the book was written and sold, the original folks had - 4(?) years or so ? Hell, when I was just about four years sober or so I was drinking a Diet Coke driving home from work. As I passed by an old watering hole of mine the cold, refreshing carbonated liquid travelled down my gullet - SUDDENLY - out of the darkest recesses of my mind came the thought: God damn, I wish that was a beer. Stuck at a light, peering into the bar at the folks in their drinking with impunity.
Then my sponsor calls, I hadn't spoken to him for almost two months, and hadn't been to a meeting for a month. I wasn't doing anything with Steps 10, 11, or 12. But he called, I exposed my resentment at him, at AA, and I took his direction. I didn't drink.
We call that - "Is that odd or is that God". That's not in the book either, but it happened. Anyway, sorry for my long winded (as usual) post, I really am. Just trying to explain why I think I understand that phrase and some of the others that aren't in the book.
"Hey, I'm only an arms length away from the next drink".... but .....
Then he or she will try to serve something up that's helpful, but might hurt someone's feelings. Some call it false humility but the intent was there to remain a humble servant, gentle and kind. That's how I took it anyway.
Long term sobriety, like sober for 20,30,40 some odd years and some people apparently do drink after long periods of sobriety, does seem to be a bit of a challenge and something that requires vigilance. So to me it speaks of an awareness to remain vigilant.
It's interesting to note that when the book was written and sold, the original folks had - 4(?) years or so ? Hell, when I was just about four years sober or so I was drinking a Diet Coke driving home from work. As I passed by an old watering hole of mine the cold, refreshing carbonated liquid travelled down my gullet - SUDDENLY - out of the darkest recesses of my mind came the thought: God damn, I wish that was a beer. Stuck at a light, peering into the bar at the folks in their drinking with impunity.
Then my sponsor calls, I hadn't spoken to him for almost two months, and hadn't been to a meeting for a month. I wasn't doing anything with Steps 10, 11, or 12. But he called, I exposed my resentment at him, at AA, and I took his direction. I didn't drink.
We call that - "Is that odd or is that God". That's not in the book either, but it happened. Anyway, sorry for my long winded (as usual) post, I really am. Just trying to explain why I think I understand that phrase and some of the others that aren't in the book.
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