TigerClub

What does everyone think to this grassroots movement that seems to be happening in US to make people aware of as someone coined it 'the dark underbelly of AA' or as i would like to see it rougue individuals.

Does this flyer/poster seem alarmist and frighten people away, or does it raise important issues for newcomers as well as reminding longer term folk as well?

I know some groups have introduced wording into the start of the meeting about 13 stepping etc because people are worried about some of the things that have happened.

What are people's experiences in the past, is this new or has this been tried before? Have people seen other things happen on the ground or are there changes they would like to see?

Mark75

I don't know, I don't see a need for it in the meetings I attend.

Perhaps it would be a good phamplet, AA approved and all that. Maybe in the opening remarks direct newcomers to it...

Terminally Unique

I have spoken with Monica Richardson before - she is the one that came up with this pamphlet. Monica tried to have it approved, only to be shot down repeatedly and at times outright threatened for it. She spent 36 years in AA - she knows what she is talking about with regard to this.

Terminally Unique

I should add that Monica is currently in contact with many victims across the country. She maintains the Stop 13 Step in AA blog.

(BTW, she was tossed out of her 36 year sober anniversary meeting for trying to discuss this pamphlet during her speech)

scaredykat

This is new to me. I actually have never seen or even heard about this flyer/poster in my area. I have read of concerns of safety for women and minors in the grapevine.

DayTrader

That was basically my thought too Mark. The groups that need something like that probably wouldn't hand it out and the groups that don't need to give such direction in writing because they're policing their own don't really have a need for it......

Thankfully, the "crappy" groups out there tend not to last too long....

....and on another note, solid lines of sponsorship - based upon THE program (steps, traditions, and principles) would solve a gazillion problems - and that's something we CAN all work on right now.




/.natural selection.\

Jfanagle

Certainly any group should be aware of its member’s common welfare. I like to think based on my experience with many different groups that common sense applied by the older members, both male and female, as well as the leaders of the group "usually" spots obvious abuse and a predator when they exist.

If after consideration by its members a particular group chooses to disseminate written information then I say, "by all means do so, as each group is promised autonomy by our traditions as long as we don't impact AA as a whole."

I suspect that if we simply look out for the safety and well-being of those who may require a little more consideration, both in and out of AA then the world will be a better place. I am not sure writing about it really makes much of a difference.

Jon

Tosh

It's not just women who get 13th Stepped, and it can make the men who this happens to drink too.

Yes, I think it's good; anything that brings awareness and makes people feel safer is a good thing, IMO.

scaredykat

Good point Tosh. And I agree.

Terminally Unique

AA's General Service Board took up this issue and ultimately decided that protecting vulnerable members was the responsibility of the individual groups and their members. From the Oregon Area 58 Fall 2010 Newsletter, General Assembly Edition:

The AA General Service Board Subcommittee Report on Vulnerable Members in AA is available online.

NOTE: Some may find the choice of language objectionable or in poor taste - I did.

Boleo

I agree. The meetings that are founded on AA literature are already "policing their own" to some degree. The worst meetings have a history of circumventing AA literature and would only find a kludge for this as well.

roisindubh

When I first read the poster, it seemed like a good idea, but then I remembered how many newcomers I've counseled about the 13th step and been ignored. I see it repeatedly in meetings I attend, and it almost always leads to a relapse on the part of the newcomer. The last example was a man who claims to have 22 years of sobriety who was pursued by a newcomer and started a relationship with her. He was pretty unstable due to mental illness, and she was drinking again in a very short time. I had talked to her and I know her sponsor did, but she still went ahead with the relationship. A couple of people in the meeting talked to him and had their lives threatened. He now goes to meetings in other areas and is probably looking for other newcomers to victimize. So, I don't know what good a poster would do. Newcomers, both male and female, are usually very lonely when they arrive in AA and are vulnerable - easy targets for others who want to prey on them. I've also suggested to women that they attend only women's meetings for the first year, especially if they have a history to relapsing after being 13 stepped in the past. The same could be suggested for men who fall into the same trap, although almost all the problems I've seen involve men taking advantage of women.

Terminally Unique

Giving this pamphlet to a meeting secretary and asking them if they would be willing to have the relevant parts of it read at the opening of meetings, or to alternatively have the issue brought up at the next group conscience, and hearing their response to the suggestion, is certainly most instructive as to the character of a particular group.

A few groups have already agreed to do this, and this pamphlet is read at every meeting. I would encourage others to try and implement this policy in their home groups - it does make a difference.

onlythetruth

I believe that the movement towards protecting vulnerable AA newcomers is critically important, and I would be suspect of any group that wasn't willing to openly talk about the issue, which is sufficiently bad that the subcommittee report (available online) mentions with alarm that outside agencies are becoming reluctant to refer clients to AA.

I will also candidly state that one of the reasons--although not the only one--that I chose to disaffiliate myself from AA several years ago was that I was appalled by the level of sexual and financial predation being practiced among the membership. Worse than that was the willingness of the majority of members to look the other way.

There is no way, I realize, to make the problem disappear, but the time has long passed where it can be swept under the rug or ignored.

Boleo

I have had similar discussions with old-timers many times in the past and been told in virtually 100% of them: "Any changes to the Traditions would do more harm than good".

I have seen some evidence of this when starting new meetings myself. Any rules whatsoever drive away a certain percentage of newcomers. Even perfectly sensible rules illicit the response:

"What! An order? I can't go through with it!".

HuskyPup

Gosh that's harsh! I hope these people who kicked her out get over their resentment, because AA claims that resentment will cause an alcoholic to start drinking again. I guess we can expect some big-time relapses, there.

I see nothing wrong with the pamphlet. I have not seen anything spooky at my meetings, but especially as minors go, precautions seem to be a good idea. They might even add same sex to the rides part...not everyone is straight, after all, who might put the moves on somebody.

Terminally Unique

I'd wager that 95% - 99% of AA members are not predatory in any way, but the problem is that those who are do tend to have multiple victims, and they have no intention whatsoever of stopping their behavior unless they are forced to stop. This is why reading this pamphlet at the beginning of meetings works - anyone with ill intentions who hears that such actions will not be tolerated will very quickly look for another meeting.

mhealer3

sadly, i think it's based on somebody's actual bad experience.
apparently people were targeted for different reasons & just like the 'boy scouts', nobody wants to think that perverts or haters lurk at your neighborhood support groups.
but think about it,
creeps have been nearly scientific in targeting the weak, or lonely, or addicted.
better to be safe than sorry,
it's good 2 let the creeps know we're on the lookout & going to prosecute them.

Boleo

I agree with that. The real problem is that there are con-artists and predators who play their games dozens of times over tens of years without consequences of any type.

However, this should be resolved at the Group Conscious level rather than the GSO level. Some of the better meetings that I attend have modified their opening statement to specifically address one members bad behavior. We call it the "You-know-who rule".

EricL

Yeah I don't see any problem with individual meetings making a statement such as this. I can see why it has not been accepted by the GSO though, there is no message of recovery there, and it has nothing at all to do with AA as a program.

As far as 13th stepping... I don't get it, people get all up in arms about "Ohhh (s)he only has however much time, (s)he shouldn't be talking to them...." I've never understood this putting an arbitrary time stamp on new people, like after a year they are magically functional, after a year god suddenly removes the obsession? I had always been taught that I am only a newcomer until I've done the work and had a spiritual awakening. Sometimes this may occur in a week, sometimes in a year.

Also, why is the assumption that there is always distinct "victim" in these situations? Does this behavior not speak volumes to the state of both parties, that both are so desperate for a distraction, both more than willing to wrongly place their reliance upon another human that they mutually make the decision to do whatever feels good at the moment. Just because one hasn't had a drink for a while does not mean that they are healthy. And, to that end, the book is pretty clear on how to handle such people-as any other sick person.

In my experience, at least with the dudes, I pull them aside and pose this that type of question to them, especially if I notice that its a cyclic kinda behavior. Offer to help them do the work, again if necessary. Beyond that, its not my job to make sure these people are "safe". Its simply my job to carry a message to them, and yes, part of that message is that you cannot transmit something you haven't got, soooo if you haven't got it.... then stay away from the ladies.