Boleo

"Giving the newcomer options is not an act of kindness"

- Clarence Snyder

LosingmyMisery

It was suggested I do the 12 steps, I didn't. I got drunk. When I did work the program and did the 12 steps, I got and stayed sober. From my experience, I would highly suggest doing them. It may be the difference between recovery and drinking. Without out the 12 steps what are we really doing?

Pinkcuda

No more than AA itself is a suggestion. If you're going to do AA then AAs program is the steps. If you're not doing the steps you're doing something else. You're just in AA doing it.

Chops

I can't stand the dogmatic approach of some, I prefer a nice long drunkalouge to talk of the steps.... All the spiritual talk tends to turn me off too. I would also prefer the Big Book end at the Doctor's Opinion.

Unfortunately for me and perhaps fortunately for others I don't get to say what AA is or isn't. So yes, (sigh) the steps are the AA program of recovery, not merely suggestions, whether I like it or not. And even if you're like me they will work for you if you just follow the directions.

Personally I think I had my awakening before the steps, the obsession was sure lifted by God, but I did them anyway cause that is AA.

Boleo

If talking about problems lead to rehabilitation... prison would have a 100% rehabilitation rate

TheJungianThing

A recovered woman was in our meeting the other day and said that it was AA that got her to finally realize she was probably the only "guilty" one in prison, everyone else was "innocent" and there unjustly.

Said, nope, she was there because she committed a crime and as soon as she got out and continued in AA - hasn't had to return.

Chops

When I hear about the prison of alcoholism it makes me never want to return... meh, its just my experience and preference if you will. I don't put it on anyone else in the rooms. So far, my rehabilitation rate is 100%.

SteppingItUp

The line that always strikes me from pages 58-59 is: "...we beg of you..."


"If you have decided you want what we have [if you have decided you want to get sober (and well!)] and are willing to go to any length to get it [and are willing to do whatever it takes] — then you are ready to take certain steps [specifically, the ones we're about to present to you right now].

At some of these we balked [don’t worry -- initially we weren’t too thrilled about all of this either]. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not [this IS the easier, softer way]. With all the earnestness at our command [we really mean this with everything we've got], we beg of you [PLEASE!] to be fearless and thorough from the very start [do the whole thing, do it for real, and do it now]. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil [our old ideas got us nowhere, nothing, zip, zilch] until we let go absolutely [guess who we're going to 100% let go to?].

Remember that we deal with alcohol, cunning, baffling, powerful! [alcoholism is cunning, baffling, powerful.] Without help it is too much for us [on our own, we will be overpowered]. But there is One who has all power - That One is God [lack of power was our dilemma -- and so we turn to the ultimate source of power: God (the God of your understanding)].May you find Him now! [now.]

Half measures availed us nothing [shortcuts through these steps will not work]. We stood at the turning point [there is a fork in the road -- which direction will you choose? Recovery or alcoholic insanity and death?]. We asked His protection and care [We took all that we were to the love of God] with complete abandon [and decided to turn ourselves over to him desperately and completely, holding back nothing].

Boleo

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." 1939

"Rarely have we seen a person - who has thoroughly followed our path." 2011

keithj

OK, I'll play along for a moment. What's the truth here? Are you a sponsor in AA, or are you a couple of months sober and haven't completed the Steps in AA? Which is it?

One question: Does the AA program of recovery make any other suggestions besides the clear, specific, and precise directions in the BB? It does not. They are suggestions for how to recover. They are the only suggestions AA makes. It's the only way we know to recover. Now, any member is free to take those suggestions or not take them, or mold them however they see fit. But they are still the only suggestions in AA. If you don't like them, don't want to do them, don't need them, that's your business. YMMV.

Again, it's up to the individual how they wish to use those directions (suggestions). I hope that, if you deviate from those suggestions in the BB, you fully disclose that to those you sponsor.

I advise every guy I work with to disregard anything I tell them that can't be reconciled with the BB. At that point, I've crossed the line from a program that works over to my ego-driven, I know best program.

TheJungianThing

"And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone, even alcohol"


First Edition Alcoholics Anonymous.

susanlauren

I have come to the conclusion that the "suggestions" and "directions" thing is another paradox of the AA program. The steps may be suggested as a program of recovery, but by God if you really want to get sober and stay sober, then you damn well better act on those "suggestions" as if they were "directions".
Susan

keithj

Your opinions and 'take' on the AA program are based on very limited experience with it. That's neither good nor bad; it is what it is. When one is suggesting a deviation from the specific and precise directions of the BB, with the premise that this deviation works just as well as the BB formula, I feel it is relevant to know just how well it really does work. In your experience, how well does this deviation work?

A month ago you posted here that you had 60 days sobriety and started taking on sponsees in January. Not a very sound practice to start passing along the solution when you haven't experienced it yourself.

I mean you no ill will, Darklight. I take sobriety and AA as a matter of life and death. Most alcoholics will never recover. AA offers a tried and true, time-tested solution that works for just about everyone that really does it. Think carefully about the the depth of your experience with your own solution to alcoholism before you start tweaking that time-tested solution in AA.

Tommyh

whatever happened to all those "musts"?

a drunkalog serves a good purpose.They help give the newcomer a chance to realize they are alcoholic.When I was new,a little grey haired lady told her story.Before long,I found myself thinking,I drank like that,I Did that too etc,she smashed walls in my mind to help me see I am a alcoholic.When those members spoke of blackouts,I knew I had plenty of those,I just did not know
what they was called.Those drunkalogs helped me a lot.

keithj

No, your facts keep changing, which is why I asked. Here you say: But in another post you say: I don't care which is correct or which is true. I would just 'suggest' that if you have been around 12 Step programs for 6 years, but only have 60 days of continuous sobriety, something is missing. Your story (if it can be believed) is a living, walking example of the results from treating the 12 Steps as suggestions to be worked as one sees fit. Everyone is welcome to do it that way, but they may get results similar to your own. Based on your own results, you are making the case of why following the specific, precise directions of the BB is a pretty good idea.

TheJungianThing

I'm no internet sleuth bro and I pretty much give people the benefit of the doubt anyway. We're all here for some dialog and fellowship geared towards staying sober and maybe helping others stay sober.

Just throwing this out for consideration. Both of you have some cool things to say and perspectives on things.



I "fat fingered" an email at work once. Saying how a server had shut down. Only the "I" is so close to the U and I didn't proofread in a hurry to get a status out there.

My co-workers erupted in laughter, then showed me the email.

"SH" with an I, then a T -

Anyway.

Boleo

It never ceases to amaze me how people can walk a thousand mile journey together and then argue over how the last 6 inch's should be navigated. LOL!

Tommyh

I would like to say my comments about drunkalogs was about speaker meetings,not discussion meetings.Have a good day!

resumebreakdown

The original manuscript of "How it Works" reads:
The first edition version of "How It Works" reads:
The program is suggested, and the Steps are the program.

This makes sense, since Bill Wilson knew of Rowland Hazard, who recovered with a different "program" in the Oxford Groups. Rowland is mentioned in the book, but Bill undoubtedly knew of others, like James Houck, who also recovered in Oxford Groups.

The book also describes what Jung told Rowland on page 27:
In other words, alcoholics have been recovering since before AA (or Oxford Group) even existed, so the 12 Steps are obviously not the only possible program, and the BB makes this explicit.

My take on it is that the program of AA is suggested, but that if one is going to use the AA program, the Steps are the way to do it.

Pinkcuda

On more than one occasion it was "Suggested" I quit drinking. I guess that meant I didn't have to.
But to sit in AA Meetings does not make one an AA Member. That's backed up by Tradition #3

"Our Membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Any 2-3 alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA Group".

"Sobriety" as defined by AA "The Freedom from Alcohol through the practice and teaching of the 12 Steps"
So! In other words you must take the steps and pass them on in order to recover. If you desire to "Recover" (per AA definition) then you may call yourself a "Member".



Quotes are from AA Big Book First Edition and AA Publication "Problems other than Alcohol"