JohnBarleycorn

That depends on how you interpret the 95% failure rate. It could be that those people haven't bothered to actually read the books that are easily and readily available at every single meeting, often for free.

However, it could also be that for many in that 95% bracket, AA is simply not compatible with their temperament, in which case they might have more success elsewhere.

As an aside, the custom here is that people celebrating a "sobriety birthday" will give away their copy of the BB and/or 12x12 to a newcomer or anyone who needs them. I got mine this way.

Jfanagle

The percentages of who makes it and who doesn't really are not as important as the stories of those that CHOOSE AA and stay sober and live better lives than if they hadn't decided to get and stay sober and then "used" AA as the way THEY DID IT.

When did AA and Ginsu Knives become synonymous? The damn knives have guarantees, I have never heard or thought walking into AA was a dead lock on sobriety.

This thread has been a discussion about ways that a message can be delivered, I am sure that we are all in agreement that "there is a message" if it comes email, FedEx or snail mail as long as you "get it" and apply it with enough effort and sincerity the outcome CAN be wonderful.

Guarantee: Ginsu or a Bamboo Steamer may be what you want.

Jon

FrothyJay

Fair enough, JB, but I don't believe that reading the book is enough. You need to have a guide. Just picking up the book doesn't create the experience. This is where active sponsorship is important. We've taken the "attraction not promotion" concept (which was meant only for publicity) far too literally in our meetings.

I also believe the 12 and 12 is a vastly misunderstood book. Bill wrote it primarily for the traditions, and as an afterthought (they were afraid no one would buy it) added the essays on the steps. You can't do the steps out of the 12 and 12, the directions simply aren't there. And I think that's why many people view the steps as these ethereal concepts to be mused on, as opposed to actions they need to take.

I think most of the 95% fail because they are not presented with a solution. Out of our fear of offending them, or scaring them off, we tell them nothing.

FrothyJay

The problem is that you have to dig far too deep to find the true solution in AA today. Expecting someone to walk into a meeting where people are whining about their day and say, "Wow, this is where I belong!" is crazy.

As a general rule in meetings today, you are not told, "You have a fatal, relapsing condition that only a spiritual experience can overcome." You are told, "Don't drink and come back. Think the drink through." These directions are completely at odds with the literature of our program, which says that we cannot discern the true from the false. Yet I'm supposed to think a drink through?

I refuse to write off the people who are dying as unimportant, and congratulate myself for being sober. We should be ashamed of our failure rate-- it is a direct result of AA no longer being about a spiritual solution to a spiritual problem, but more a pep rally for abstinence. I'm just waiting for the pom-poms.

JohnBarleycorn

Jay, I agree with you entirely about telling people what the program really is. Certainly, some people will be put off, but that is better than being less than honest, in my opinion.

Regarding your remark about 12x12 not having proper directions, is there another book that you think does explain them?

FrothyJay

absolutely. Pages 30-103 in the Big Book.

JohnBarleycorn

I took that one as a given.

FrothyJay

OK, sorry. I misunderstood.

I've been taught that the steps are an experience driven by specific action. The less I'm told about that experience, and the more I just have it, the better. So the direction in the Big Book lays out exactly what I need to do.

Pete55

I just listened to this particular recording again, objectively this time.
Sorry, I can't "get" what he is trying to say, too diluted for me. If it works for others, thats great.


The point is, to appreciate what is being said, what works for me is to seek out recordings from as many original members of AA.
One that comes to mind is Clarence Snyder's "How it Works" recorded in 1982
There is another recording going back as far as 1966, Cleveland.
When listening to both talks, 1966 and 1982, his shares are almost identical on "How it works", despite the difference in years.
The original members do not seem to dilute the message and method, it remains pure AA.

After listening to Snyder's talks, then Chris R made some sense. But only then.
What Chris is probably saying, "listen to the original members, then see if I'm right".

omegasupreme

I do not recall which specific talk, but in one of them Chris references Clarence doing what he does long ago, as well as some of the other pioneers speaking on the same thing. Chris is by no means a pioneer in his method(s) at the podium, he just took things a stage further. His experience of 7 yrs in and out of the fellowship, missing the message adds passion to it. I can identify, my first experience with the fellowship was with a handful of thumpers that were doing the deal and still are today. After not wanting what they had I landed in another town, crawled back into the fellowship, and a diluted one at that. Had I not seen what those thumpers were doing at those early meetings I have a grave feeling I would have missed the message as well. I am in the class of 2009, within a 20 mile radius of my hometown and the dozens of meetings in that radius I can currently only recall one other man still sober from the class of 2009...and I do not want anything he has...diluted message??? I feel so.

Correction: Possibly one other young lady as well, but she may be from the class of 2008. Either way, still very slim compared to the numbers that come to the meetings.

WakeUp

I could have been the same way. In and out, revolving door, relapse over and over if I just listened to the slogans, and did the group therapy thing. Heck I was even seriously considering leaving AA.
It was by being here on SR that I learned of the "MOTR" AA and the real deal Program of AA.
Bill and Dr Bob probably flip over in their graves every time they hear a modern day AA meeting.

tomvlll

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I'm guessing that at least Dr Bob would flip in his grave observing how little has really changed in the realm of alcohol recovery in 60 years.

Wilson too.

I 'm going to also wager a bet that every 10 years, there are people who say AA was better 10 years ago.

I would also wager a bet that at some of those meetings at Wilson's house, many eyes were rolled as so and so went on and on about how crappy their job was or how much they drank.

Boleo

I not only do I agree with this statement. I suspect it is true. As AA appeals to a wider and more diversified assortment of people, the primary purpose gets lost and the success rate goes down.

As an example: one of my favorite meetings was one held at a Catholic Hospital where there was a large number Priests and Nuns in attendance. The Hospital started losing money and was sold to a large Health Care System. Not only did the Priests and Nuns stop coming but a large number of Psych patients seemed to take their place. Now the meeting has turned into an "Assorted Nut Club" where some members never even get around to mentioning alcohol. A surprising number even go so far as to support NA beer as an acceptable alternative to quitting completely. When drinking near beer becomes the message the real alcoholics won't stand a chance.

Pinkcuda

This is where I get the idea that AA is all about meetings. When, how many and what comes up. In my less than humble opinion only a small fraction of AA should take place in meetings. The rest should be how we live in the program and how we conduct ourselves in our daily routine. Tradition one says that I am a small part of a Great Whole. Each Group is a small part of the same great whole. As with each district etc...
Since "I am a small part of a great whole I personally have one primary purpose. "To carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers" Do I do that? Or do I wait for a meeting? Do I need to make a phone call right now? Or should I wait for the meeting? Do I need to practice these principles in all of my affairs? Or in meetings?
Who gives a damn what comes up in a meeting? Are you living the program?
"Todays topic is (insert ******** here) and we all go around the room pumping sunshine up each others asses and never talk about God, the steps and the program. I really doubt they did in the 40s either. They were casual get togethers where everyone in the program met in someones home. They probably talked about baseball or the war. But they were together as birds of a feather tend to do.
"Let's go around the room and discuss (insert ******** here)" comes from treatment centers that have infested AA and spread like a virus.
God Bless Chris R. and the message he carries.

JohnBarleycorn

Jay,

Are you saying that you *need* a sponsor in order to work through the program? If so, I disagree.

No one is under any obligation to take on a sponsor, and sponsorship is not a requirement that must be met in order to proceed through the recovery program of AA.

In both theory and practice, there is nothing to suggest that a member may not go through the program on their own. There is no reference whatsoever in the Big Book to sponsorship.

There is only one instance where someone will require the assistance of another person - Step 5 - and that other person does not have to be a member of the Fellowship. It can just as well be a Priest or a psychologist, for example, where confidentiality is far more likely than with a sponsor.

keithj

There is a whole chapter on it, describing precisely how the recovered alcoholic can best work with the newcomer.

Pete55

Nup, disagree, the real alcoholic, vital to have a sponsor, cos we self delude.
It's that simple, if ya real alkie, need sponsor to take ya through the book's key passages.
BTW, "sponsor" is just a title, point of reference to someone.
My "sponsor" we simply said we just going to be AA freinds, I am not his sponsee he is not my sponsor, just AA friends going through the BB.
Difference? him, 35 years sober, active AA member.
Me? 18 months sober at the time about to bust.
How did I ask him to "take me through the BB?
Go to meetings and don't listen to the carpe artists.
What happened, well, one just knows, when they here someone share and they *know* what they are talking about, ya know, ya just know.
He took me right through the BB up to the chapter, "A Vision for you", then we split from the journey.

Very dangerous to say, "don't need a sponsor" JBc, Not good for the real alkie who reads this, especially a suffering real alkie.
Sorry, but had to say it, friends of mine are back out there cos they were told similar stuff about sponsorships, gotta leave that one sacred.
Even Bill W stated somewhere that Ebby T was his sponsor,
Dr Bob's "sponsor", Bill W.,they became best of friends, their wives and families, history, all seeded from "sponsorship"
Clarence S, Dr Bob's sponsee

Need i go on...,

JohnBarleycorn

I presume you mean Chapter 7 - Working With Others. I have read it.

While it does describe the nature of 12th Step work, there is no mention of sponsorship, sponsors, or a requirement to have one.

Jfanagle

Respectfully I must disagree that one can "effectively" go through the program of AA alone. In fact the very term we apply to ourselves, "FELLOWSHIP" connotes one alcoholic helping another. While the term sponsor does not appear in print, the concept runs like a thread throughout the entire book. The comments that we cannot do this alone and the instructions that appear on pages 80-103 are explicit in the nature of helping the "new man."

The 12TH step requires the "other alcoholics" for us to carry the message to them. Hence I will always need the "assistance" of others in order to live the program of AA.

Jon

JohnBarleycorn

This may be true in your case, but it is not a requirement.

Step 12 requires that one "try" to carry "this message" (what is written in the BB itself) to alcoholics.

One could do this simply by gifting a copy of the Big Book. No one is required to be a sponsor in order to recover.

From Chapter 7 (page 98):