Big Book Quote
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Big Book Quote
~*~*~*~*^ Big Book Quote ^*~*~*~*~*
"Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter
you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start,
this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our
first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we
found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin
somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was."
~Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st. Edition,
We Agnostics, pg. 47~
"Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter
you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start,
this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our
first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we
found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin
somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was."
~Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st. Edition,
We Agnostics, pg. 47~
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Why is this so hard for so many people?
Yesterday I was at a meeting (a meeting that I have attended pretty much weekly for 4.5 years) and when I left I was so distressed that I felt physically ill. And that is very, very unusual for me, because I seem to be able to get something from pretty much any meeting.
Anyways, the topic was Step 2, so they read out of the 12 & 12 (reader did a great job). Then someone brought up the topic of how life run on self-will makes her insane, but, nevertheless, she has a ot of trouble turning things over to HP, or, if she does, not taking them back as soon as anything doesn't go "her way."
OK, so far so good.
Then 2 people shared -- good, helpful, solution-oriented shares -- and then someone (chronic relapser, very laid-back and lazy as far as Step work goes) started in on how he is an atheist, and God has never done anything for Him (Well, DUH, someting that doesn't exist can't really do much for you can it???) and can't believe in a HP and how, if he even reads the Steps, they make no sense to him and sound like so much hocus-pocus.
And it was all downhill from there....Well, actually more like it just fell over a firggin' cliff!
There were several people there who do not regularly attend this meeting and somehow it got to be this total b*tch session focused on how all of these people -- some of them without a drink for over 10 years -- have these terrible resentments against and anger at a God (from their childhood) that they don't believe in...and so they don't have a HP and they don't like to read the literature because there's too much talk of God and/or HP.
Really.
I am not making this up.
Now, even though this is an AA meeting (and I am Al Anon) I finally made up my mind to talk (which I do once in awhile at this particualr meeting)....and all I was going to do was to share some ES&H around possible ways to connect with a HP if you don't like the one you were given in your childhood, but then a relatively new person started talking and he went on until past the end of the meeting...so it basically ended on his being so confused about how to deal with whole HP thing....
....and he is probably even more confused after that ridiculous meeting!
So, it was just very disturbing.....Actually somehow more disturbing than the time I attended a meeting at which the Chair spent the whole time talking about how his mother was to blame for all of his problems -- including his alcoholism -- and just bashing women in general.
...add to this the fact that some people I care very much about in program who are trying their hardest and really want to do the work are getting some very weird, manipulative push-back from supposed "friends" (and, in one case, even a supposed "sponsor"!) who prefer to less-than-half-measure it and, thus, feel uncomfortable around and threatened by anyone who is really doing the deal.
...anyway, this morning I am actually feeling some measure of sympathy for the rigid, my-way-or-the-highway, bleeding deacon types!
freya
Yesterday I was at a meeting (a meeting that I have attended pretty much weekly for 4.5 years) and when I left I was so distressed that I felt physically ill. And that is very, very unusual for me, because I seem to be able to get something from pretty much any meeting.
Anyways, the topic was Step 2, so they read out of the 12 & 12 (reader did a great job). Then someone brought up the topic of how life run on self-will makes her insane, but, nevertheless, she has a ot of trouble turning things over to HP, or, if she does, not taking them back as soon as anything doesn't go "her way."
OK, so far so good.
Then 2 people shared -- good, helpful, solution-oriented shares -- and then someone (chronic relapser, very laid-back and lazy as far as Step work goes) started in on how he is an atheist, and God has never done anything for Him (Well, DUH, someting that doesn't exist can't really do much for you can it???) and can't believe in a HP and how, if he even reads the Steps, they make no sense to him and sound like so much hocus-pocus.
And it was all downhill from there....Well, actually more like it just fell over a firggin' cliff!
There were several people there who do not regularly attend this meeting and somehow it got to be this total b*tch session focused on how all of these people -- some of them without a drink for over 10 years -- have these terrible resentments against and anger at a God (from their childhood) that they don't believe in...and so they don't have a HP and they don't like to read the literature because there's too much talk of God and/or HP.
Really.
I am not making this up.
Now, even though this is an AA meeting (and I am Al Anon) I finally made up my mind to talk (which I do once in awhile at this particualr meeting)....and all I was going to do was to share some ES&H around possible ways to connect with a HP if you don't like the one you were given in your childhood, but then a relatively new person started talking and he went on until past the end of the meeting...so it basically ended on his being so confused about how to deal with whole HP thing....
....and he is probably even more confused after that ridiculous meeting!
So, it was just very disturbing.....Actually somehow more disturbing than the time I attended a meeting at which the Chair spent the whole time talking about how his mother was to blame for all of his problems -- including his alcoholism -- and just bashing women in general.
...add to this the fact that some people I care very much about in program who are trying their hardest and really want to do the work are getting some very weird, manipulative push-back from supposed "friends" (and, in one case, even a supposed "sponsor"!) who prefer to less-than-half-measure it and, thus, feel uncomfortable around and threatened by anyone who is really doing the deal.
...anyway, this morning I am actually feeling some measure of sympathy for the rigid, my-way-or-the-highway, bleeding deacon types!
freya
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Fellowship 101
Originally Posted by freya 
Then 2 people shared -- good, helpful, solution-oriented shares -- and then someone (chronic relapser, very laid-back and lazy as far as Step work goes) started in on how he is an atheist, and God has never done anything for Him (Well, DUH, someting that doesn't exist can't really do much for you can it???) and can't believe in a HP and how, if he even reads the Steps, they make no sense to him and sound like so much hocus-pocus.
And it was all downhill from there....Well, actually more like it just fell over a firggin' cliff!
There were several people there who do not regularly attend this meeting and somehow it got to be this total b*tch session focused on how all of these people -- some of them without a drink for over 10 years -- have these terrible resentments against and anger at a God (from their childhood) that they don't believe in...and so they don't have a HP and they don't like to read the literature because there's too much talk of God and/or HP.
Really.
I am not making this up.
...anyway, this morning I am actually feeling some measure of sympathy for the rigid, my-way-or-the-highway, bleeding deacon types!
freya
Honesty and Truth are not altogther the same thing, although they are often expressed in the same breath has having the same meaning.
~~ Honesty speaks more to the character of the person as they express themselves in a truthful manner without lying
~~ Truth presents as more a collective set of theories in philosophy and mathematics, science and sociology; and as a Living Entity in religion and spiritualism [God]; and as a practical matter as in Law and Government, and even politics (hahaha).
So when at a AA meeting it is not surprising that God and Higher Power become so entangled into an unrelenting b*tch fest from time to time. In all the thousands of years people have been discussing God, how else could AA be any different?
Im suggesting that often meetings degenerate not because the members mean them to but more because they equate honesty with being truthful as they join into the conversation and fellowship. They speak from the heart about matters which are very personal and at the same time universal in the lives of all peoples of our world. There are bound to be some difficulties, lol.
As well, hurt-filled people often make say hurtful things ideas and whatevers. There really is no escaping the process, and although i don't agree that a b*tch fest is a useful atmosphere to have at AA i totally understand why people with years of abstinence can still be angry and even hateful towards HP and God or whatever.
So I join you Freya in feeling a warm and embracing sympathy for the die-hards and blinded deacon types who also have their rightful place at the recovery table anyways. There is an abundance of honesty and a mustard-seed of truth at most AA meetings [or any other]. Is that wrong?
When I look at the world as a whole collection of billions of individual persons -- all living and dying together -- i am grateful that at least a mustard-seed of truth survives in all meetings, no matter the meeting itself, no matter the honesty or the dishonesty of the persons involved.
-- Thus, 'truth' involves both the quality of "faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, sincerity, veracity", and that of "agreement with fact or reality" -- from Google
Truth always finds its own way!
RobbyRobot
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Hmmmmmm.......I like the point about honesty and truth, but, actually, I happen to kinda define honesty a bit different and to put it, ultimately as far as values go, above truth.......
...and I used to organize my composition 101 classes around this distinction.
"Honesty," to me, equates to the slang expression "get real" --as in being totally true and authentic and acting with integrity and in accordance with one's truest self and highest values.
Now, for me, typically, honesty entails being truthful....but not always. For example, and I have a very, very old post about this somewhere on SR, if a friend is giving a surprise party for another friend, and the subject somehow comes up between me and the person for whom the party is being planned, it is the "truthful" thing for me to tell him about the party, but it is not the "honest" thing, because, in this (extreme and rare) situation, honesty requires me to pay allegiance to a higher value.
Same thing with another extreme (opposite end of the spectrum "extreme," and rare) situation: Let's say I'm living in Nazi Germany and I know that my neighbor is hiding Jews in his basement, and some SS guys come by and ask me if I know where there are any Jews hinding: the truthful response is "in my neighbor's basement," but that, in my opinion, is not the honest repsonse...again because honesty requires that, in this situation, I pay allegience to a higher value than "truthfulness."
...and it is very, very interesting that you brought this up Robby, because about 5 weeks ago I had a very, very unusual, epiphany-like experience in which it suddenly came to me that whenever there is a conflict like this between values, the value that should always be the determining factor is Love. I'm not sure exactly what that means (in general, I am very sure what it meant in the context though which the epiphany occurred) and I do know that that is also probably a very big "DUH!" to a lot of people, but it was quite a revelation to me.
freya
...and my issue, of course, is that I can't friggin' stand to wait around for the grape juice to be totally displaced by the water.......I'm like, "For heavens sake people, just walk to the friggin' sink, dump it out, and get some water!!!!!!!"
...and I used to organize my composition 101 classes around this distinction.
"Honesty," to me, equates to the slang expression "get real" --as in being totally true and authentic and acting with integrity and in accordance with one's truest self and highest values.
Now, for me, typically, honesty entails being truthful....but not always. For example, and I have a very, very old post about this somewhere on SR, if a friend is giving a surprise party for another friend, and the subject somehow comes up between me and the person for whom the party is being planned, it is the "truthful" thing for me to tell him about the party, but it is not the "honest" thing, because, in this (extreme and rare) situation, honesty requires me to pay allegiance to a higher value.
Same thing with another extreme (opposite end of the spectrum "extreme," and rare) situation: Let's say I'm living in Nazi Germany and I know that my neighbor is hiding Jews in his basement, and some SS guys come by and ask me if I know where there are any Jews hinding: the truthful response is "in my neighbor's basement," but that, in my opinion, is not the honest repsonse...again because honesty requires that, in this situation, I pay allegience to a higher value than "truthfulness."
...and it is very, very interesting that you brought this up Robby, because about 5 weeks ago I had a very, very unusual, epiphany-like experience in which it suddenly came to me that whenever there is a conflict like this between values, the value that should always be the determining factor is Love. I'm not sure exactly what that means (in general, I am very sure what it meant in the context though which the epiphany occurred) and I do know that that is also probably a very big "DUH!" to a lot of people, but it was quite a revelation to me.
freya
...and my issue, of course, is that I can't friggin' stand to wait around for the grape juice to be totally displaced by the water.......I'm like, "For heavens sake people, just walk to the friggin' sink, dump it out, and get some water!!!!!!!"
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by freya
I happen to kinda define honesty a bit different and to put it, ultimately as far as values go, above truth.......
...as in...
The opposite of a little truth is a lie; the oppposite of a big Truth is another Truth. -- Ortega y Gasset
freya
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by freya
"Honesty," to me, equates to the slang expression "get real" --as in being totally true and authentic and acting with integrity and in accordance with one's truest self and highest values.
freya
Getting real to me means the totality of The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly of both me and my life. It's about reconnecting myself with my actual "real" life-path and experience. It comes out successfuly as my "Walking My Own Talk" and in knowing when i'm not doing that and being real about it as it happens or else become "unreal"
Being honest is a personal reflection of my character. It is a window into my self that not only i can peer out from but others can peer into, and get an honest glimpse into my "soul" as it were. Being honest is a two-way action and it has consequences for failing and becoming dishonest as it may happen from time to time. None of us are perfect.
Thanks for the feed back from your ESH, ((((Freya)))).
Robby
~~ as for the just hurry up and dump the grapejuice, thats one way to go i guess, but some poor unfortunates just can't go that fast, and others won't by choice. There is much to be learned in having patience for our brothers and sisters in the fellowship as they trudge along ever so slowly or quickly as they so choose.~~
i know you said it was your issue and so you are completely taking responsibility for your own attitude and actions and in that i totally agree you have the right to your own message as well from your own ESH. Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
IMnsHO what we are dealing with here is not only prejudice but huge blind-spots as well. For some reason alcoholics have HUGE blind-spots that prevent the from seeing the truth about pretty much everything, including themselves.
They think they know everything because they simply can't "see" the simple truth that they have a lot of delusional thinking (see page 23 & 30). This makes them recalcitrant to changes of any kind (I know, I was one). About the only thing that can motive a alcoholic to change is suffering.
"Blessed be the poor of spirit. For theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"
They think they know everything because they simply can't "see" the simple truth that they have a lot of delusional thinking (see page 23 & 30). This makes them recalcitrant to changes of any kind (I know, I was one). About the only thing that can motive a alcoholic to change is suffering.
"Blessed be the poor of spirit. For theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"
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