McGowdog

Well that just doesn't sound like the A.A. Program I was shown. Maybe you don't need A.A. to get and stay sober anyway. I did.

I surely didn't invent the thing. This is how it was presented to me;

"Do you think you have a problem with booze?" My answer, "Yes."

"Do you want to quit for good and all?" My answer, "Yes."

"Gr8. Rock n' Roll. Get writing."

digderidoo

I think that can be a dangerous thing to say.

I think you're confusing my statement of commiting myself to program for life with giving up booze for life. I haven't said that i have any intention to pick up again ever. I certainly can say that i "want to quit for good and all". But what i can't say at this time is that i am going to use the program for life, only the day.

The dilemma i have had all this time is whether the AA program is the way to acheive that for me. Commiting myself to the day with regards to the program, does not mean i am commiting myself to abstinence for only the day..... In fact the reality is i am commiting myself to work the 12 steps, so therefore i'm probably wrong in saying that i'm only on the program for today..... But i am not going to commit myself to a program of AA recovery for life, as i do not yet know whether this will work for my recovery. All i can say is that i will go to any lengths, that i will give it a go and that i will do what is suggested in the big book.

Paul

sugErspun

For what it's worth didge ~ I took McGowdog's post to mean something more along the lines of: "There isn't really a need to overcomplicate things here" as well as "Step 1 before step 3"

The "maybe you don't need AA" is right from the book ~ those who can quit on willpower alone. I think you experience has told you this isn't an option for you.

Boleo

I know a guy who has 20 years sober, sponsors dozens of guys and admits that he is an atheist and has no idea who he is praying to. He has some of the best recovery that I have ever seen in spite of this, however, he does admit to the following:

He does EVERYTHING his sponsor tells him to do.

He does EVERYTHING the Big Book tells him to do (including all the prayers).

He uses "Whatever runs the universe" in place of the word God.

McGowdog

I don't get what you are saying. But... some of us have a different way of working this stuff out.

I do the steps every year. Like you say, I give it my best shot. I don't know up front if it's gonna work or not either. But if A.A. doesn't work for me people will know because I won't be going to A.A. anymore and I will be drinking and perhaps dying.

Like I said in the beginning, I know that A.A. absolutely work... for alcoholics. If the alcoholic drinks, they willfully drink. If they are sick, they are willfully sick. Y'all can say that's a dangerous statement all you want too. I don't care. That's what I've been shown and that's how I'm working this deal. My way is not for everybody. Your way is not for me.

Yeah, that and the fact that there are many on SR who don't use A.A. and are sober with secular and other means. Then there is a mixture of secular and 12 Step.

I'm just saying that I'm asked up front if I'm going to commit to each and every one of those 12 steps or not... before I start. Step 3 is one in particular that we are NOT supposed to do half way. Go see what the book says.

If what I say is contrary to the Alcoholics Anonymous book, I'm wrong.

ElegantlyWasted

"He then said that i have nothing to lose, nothing to be scared of. If i work the program and it doesn't work, i can just tear it up and throw it away"

I agree with one caveat..... Sometimes any given sponsor, regardless of their success in the program or length of sobriety is just a bad match for an individual. What really really contributes to any given members sobriety (quality and quantity) is how well the steps are worked IMHO. To me I want to have what my sponsor has that I don't and working the 12 with someone I respect as a Mentor/Tour guide is of utter importance. Don't hesitate to swap sponsors. Just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. Humbly on day 37.

digderidoo

I'm not going to get involved in this thread anymore as it seems to be getting into a debate which was not my intention when i started the thread.

I have decided to give the AA program a go and see what comes from it, all the ins and outs of working it in the day, of whether the big book should be followed to the letter, the issue of whether to say a step 3 prayer or not, whether to work the program the way a sponsor suggests or not, i guess the phrase 'keep it simple' comes to mind. The other phrase that comes to mind when alcoholics discuss how the program should work is 'couldn't organise a p**s up in a brewery' lol

Up until now all i have debated is whether to work the program or not and the for's and against's of that. Now that i have decided to work the program i'm not going to debate it......i'll leave that to you guys.

Paul

navysteve

Those are the only lengths I am willing to go to, because they are the only ones that will fix my problem. I am not willing to:

1. Stand on my head ( Or any of the other foolish things I hear others say)
2. Do whatever someone in AA tells me to do simply because they are in AA ( The whole "Never say No" alcologic...)
3. Practice a selfish program
4. Wait for a sponsor to grant me permission to work the steps
5. Trust Finite Man more than Infinite God

The list could go on and on and on...

Boil the steps down to:

Trust God
Clean house
Help others

My view of God is not an entity that requires supplication and superstition, I need to tap into that power, I do that by opening a channel and helping you ( or letting you help me)
4.

CarolD

As linking to Blogs and or quoting from Blogs
on our Forums is a violation of our SR guidelines.

I removed posts doing so as well as others that
referred to the violation.

Rob B

I'm On the same page with you on this Steve, good stuff.

navysteve

I have been thinking about a few things:

trusting infinite God rather than finite Man:

This does not mean I do not want your input. I need you folks, even those of you I disagree with. But it does mean that I take your inventory, are you living by spiritual principles? ( practicing the steps and helping others is how I define this, that leaves the door wide open for alot of different ideas and beliefs) I do believe that God speaks through most of us, but not all the time, and some of us, none of the time does he speak through. When you think about one of the main problems with alcoholics, we are stuck in self, if self is the problem, how can you transmit anything at all to me if you are the problem? But, if you have a solution, you can guide me to that solution ( AKA working the steps etc...)

So, if we surrender to a higher power, and it is beyond human power, why do I need to call my sponsor everyday? But, if I am hungry for the solution that he or she has, why wouldn't I pick their brains until I have it? There is a difference, we confuse human control for practicing these principles. There is nothing spiritual about calling someone because they told me too. The book says if he is to find God, the desire must come from within. I cannot claim to always have that desire, and in those times, the most spiritual thing I can do is make my SELF develop that desire ( live on self will for a while and I am often brought to my knees). So when I am living in a stark raving sober way I am still walking a spiritual path and I will find that infinite God, just like I did whenever I was in a squad car, jail cell or stuck in any no way out situation. I become willing when the pain of remaining the same becomes to great, or I drink...

There are two types of people in AA, those who are ready and those who ain't. My job, as one who has recovered is to help the ones who are ready and respect the ones who ain't

jimhere

A.A. didn't get me sober and A.A. doesn't keep me sober.

My first sponsor knew he couldn't keep me sober. He told me that he could lock me in his garage but given my history, I would drink when he let me out. He said that all he could do was to point me towards what was already keeping me sober. I didn't take the steps to get sober, I was already sober. I take the steps to bring me into an awareness of what does keep me sober.

He told me that the meetings wouldn't keep me sober, that the book wouldn't keep me sober, that the steps, being sponsored, being a sponsor, or service wouldn't keep me sober. None of those things in and of themselves can keep me sober, but maybe all together they will lead me to what can keep me sober. We worship all the things that point to God, but not God.

If you think about it, it is pretty arrogant of me to think that I can help someone who has placed themselves beyond human aid. All I can do is point them towards God. That is what Dr. Jung did for Rowland Hazard. Jung told Rowland that he couldn't help guys like him, but that he knew what could-a vital spiritual experience. And then Jung pointed Rowland in that direction.
Jim

shaun00

"Trust God
Clean house
Help others"

thanks steve..

prepared to go to any lengths?.......saying that to a newcomer kinda sounds like are you prepared to be indiana jones..
im sure newcomers must think they gotta do all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff to get sober and stay sober.......

and anyway........i was always prepared to go to any lengths... it just got a bit tight once the obsession plucked its strings.
i gotta confess i may have said it to a newcomer when my sponsor said "go out and make yourself useful lad"...

but over time and little bit of ego deflating......
these days i would say.."i know how you feel and this is what i did and do"
"if your interested and your interested in stopping for good give me a call"..

any lengths?......yeah trust in god however bad it gets...
put right your wrongs........because i get it wrong......lots.
and get of my backside and give it to someone else...

navysteve

In some circles of AA they do have to do just that- some sponsors make their sponsees loose all their facial hair, do community service, mow lawns, I know of a lady out here who makes her "girls" clean her house.

That isn't spiritual, that is controlling

McGowdog

Ummm... I disagree with the bolded red, my emphasis. Why? Because you contradict yourself with what I do agree with below. That adage... it rains on the rich as it does on the poor... something like that.

Red print my emphasis. I think "there's enough good in the worst of us and enough bad in the best of us, that it behooves the best of us to talk about the rest of us." I agree with you though, Steve... that I was seeking God in the back of a squad car.

Are you saying some of us are ready because of our boyscout attitude or because we've fallen to our knees and exhausted our self-will and see the error and futility of our ways? Maybe that distinction was inferred, but I think it's important to note that we all fall short sooner or later... drunk and sober.

I assume you're talking about those who've been sober in A.A. for a while just as much as those who are new, right? Yesterday's riding in back of a squad car may become today's being kind and considerate to certain family members.

There again, I'm just as concerned with those who are sober 20+ years and not sharing current experience in steps as the new person who has no clue about how to get and stay sober. That leads me to believe that it isn't a matter of some being ready or not, but some not needing to go to the lengths as some of us. And like you say, "I need you folks, even those of you I disagree with"... either one of us is right and one of us is wrong... or we are different. I consider this when I'm in certain meetings. Maybe they work steps and maybe they don't Jim's statement that working steps doesn't keep me sober maybe 100% true, but that's immaterial to me and the Homegroup I attend. In our meeting, you will work steps or you won't want to stick around. There's some leeway as to how you work those steps, but not so much on the timeframe. When we talk about our experience about what we are experiencing in the doing of those steps is... very important to us. I rarely find this in other meetings. In otherwords, do what the book says to do, and certain things will happen. Sobriety is one of those things... plus a whole lot more.

I've heard the Mark H's and the Joe H's go on and on about how doing the steps is just one more thing that I do to try to keep myself sober. Then what's the point? I could go to church and not do A.A. at all to find God and stay sober. Why don't I do that? Because at the end of the day when those other church folks breaks their shoelace, they don't drink. I do. A.A. is for drunks.

shaun00

lol..lol..lol......i can just see one of my sponsee face.

""guess what bud today you get to mow my lawn.....and yes its in the book, you just aint looking hard enough bud....dont forget the stripes"".

lmao.

navysteve

Patrick,
I don't think I am contradicting myself at all. But ok...

Absolutely! Time does not isolate me from spiritual sickness

Patrick,
Being ready may take more time for some, and in that respect, and that alone, my time in AA gives me insight to say that. I know many many many people who hung out in the fellowship for years who did not work the steps, they finally got to a point where they had two choices:

Work the steps

Die a drunk

I have met hundreds upon hundreds who fall into this category. I ( or anyone else) cannot speculate about those who have gone back out. The reasons are varied, but these folks who have stayed but did no work, you may call them middle of the road, AA lite, or whatever derogatory label many of you have for these folks, I call them still suffering Alcoholics. Perhaps more pathetic than the lowest bottom drunk on earth is the one who is putting a buck in a basket right now but has never recovered.
Step 12 Patrick, that is the point. We keep this gift by giving it freely to others. Freely is the key, no strings equal no attachment. No attachment opens up the fellowship of the spirit. Attachments and conditions makes AA less than a God centered Fellowship ( In my opinion).

But I also know that there is a wrench to fit every nut

Boleo

Oddly enough, I agree that newcomers must do weird stuff to stay sober. Here is why.

I had many sponsors who could not help me stay sober; Good sponsors, bad sponsors, smart sponsors, dumb sponsors, rich sponsors, poor sponsors, ect...

The only one that ended up helping me was the one who asked me to do some pretty weird stuff, but I was desperate enough to do everything he asked and even the stuff that was against my better judgment.

I have come to believe that it was the willingness to trust someone else - that ended up getting me out of "self-reliance mode" .

All the other sponsors had better suggestions but I insisted on choosing which suggestions I would and would not follow. In other words as long as I treated their suggestions like a cafeteria (took what I wanted and left the rest) I was still trying to run the show.

In my first year of sobriety I got a job as a OTR truck driver. I did not get a day off for 9 weeks and did not get to a meeting for 3 months. I let my dispatcher be my sponsor because he was the only human contact I had some days. Even though he was a self-centered, heartless SOB it worked.

Why? IMO it was because I was not running my own show.

McGowdog

Wait a minute now Steve... What about the guy who doesn't need to do steps and does just fine in the fellowship and just going to meetings? Are you saying that they are suffering too just because they don't have a psychic change? The book talks about this and I've seen plenty in the rooms who just don't have to do steps. We also cannot label them non-alkies either, just perhaps not alcoholics of the hopeless variety. The book talks about how "most" have lost the power of choice in drink. What about the few that still have choice, but for whatever reason, choose to come to A.A. still? I've heard of some people as being "socialized" in A.A. Have you ever heard that term in your neck of the woods or is that just in my crazy meetings?

navysteve

No Patrick, I am not speaking about them, I am talking about the un-treated alcoholic who is siting in a meeting