24hrsAday

this will be my *2end 4th step.. i already did one back about a year and a half ago.. my sponsor is encouraging me to do another. i would like to hear some others advice and opinions on doing and repeating this step.. thank you all in advance!

DaveBB164

Hi 24,

I have never felt the need to do another 4th, I practice step ten daily, “Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear (Step Four). When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them (Steps Six & Seven). Discuss them with someone immediately (Step Five) and make amends quickly if we have harmed anyone (step nine). Then we resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help (Step Twelve). AA, pg. 84

ian_g

Yeah this is exactly on key. I never understood why individuals wrote second and third and fourth etc. 4th steps. I'm unable to get to the point where I need to write an entire 4th step again because by that time, I am in such a bad spot that I'll more than likely have already picked back up. If I continue to let things build up in such a manner and not take a look at them on a daily basis, I am unable to see a light at the end of the tunnel as I've probably caused to much wreckage living in self SOBER! I know today that if I have to write another 4th step, I can not be working the 10th step on a daily basis. If I work the 10th step, there is no reason to write another 4th step.

McGowdog

I think you have a good sponsor!

I've got a guide to the 4th Step that I jotted down yesterday right here.


I've got no Pulitzer prizes for it yet, nor any good/bad responses whatsoever. But it comes right out of the Big Book and I've been shown by a group of about 70 sober guys in Denver Colorado on how to do it. Guys in my group say I do it so well that they send people to me to show them that format.

I don't think there's anything special about it in that I've heard enough 5th Steps to know that other people do good 4th Steps too. To me, it's all in the 3rd column. Well, the 1st and 2nd columns are very important too.

You'll see my comments about the 4th column in there and feel free to agree or disagree. But I'll come back with, "What's your experience in it? Don't knock it till you've tried it."

Yuck! If I were gonna be stuck in a step for life, I'd want it to be Step 11 rather than Step 10. That's like staring at your belly button IMO. So step 11 and maybe enable God to do a little Psychic Change on you and you won't have to fight booze nor will you have to make ammends all day long!

But here's the problem; rebuilding ego. Dr Bob knew about it, so did Bill Thibault. He describes this in a book called Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers.

One fan writes this:

So Bill W did a bunch of writings and World Conferences, pushed the 12 x 12, etc., but despite his awesome work in the first 164 pages, suffer the last 4 chapters IMO, and the 12 Traditions Long Form, he was depressed and broke most of his life. He even tried LSD. But nothing worked.

Meanwhile, Dr Bob did steps. We do them yearly and I'll tell you why; You feed your body with food, right? Can you live tomorrow on yesterday's food? No you can't. So do you believe that you can get fed spiritually too? Then why NOT do that which brings to into proper alignment with God? Why NOT taste the honey again? Those people who say do the steps once, makes me wonder if they ever really finished them at all!

I say do it, get an experience in it, and then we can rap about it. Meanwhile, I'm not interested in you opinion about which you know nothing about.

But a warning; decide if you're gonna do another set of steps. Don't just redo 4. Redo 1-12. Use 1, 2, and 3 to get you in a state to write in 4. A good 4th step sets you up for 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. Once you start your ammends (9), you can go on and practice 10, 11, and 12 in earnest until you're done with all of your ammends with the line "...This thought brings us to Step 10."

Don't make me break my Big Book out!

McGowdog

I got a name wrong there. It's Dr. Harry Tiebout.

He says, "The changes which take place in the conversion process may be summed up by saying that the person who has achieved the positive frame of mind has lost his tense, aggressive, demanding, conscience-ridden self which feels isolated and at odds with the world, and has become, instead, a relaxed, natural, more realistic individual who can dwell in the world on a live-and-let-live basis."

So he says it's about a "conversion" process.

Whatever it is, we do steps from September 1st to Thanksgiving Day. As I said before, that gives us the rest of the year to work on our charming personality.

laurie6781

Maybe I can explain that, at least in my case. In the almost 28 years I have been in Recovery now I have done a total of 5, yes 5 4th and 5th Steps. Why?

Well when I got here I had MAJOR memory loss, and I do mean MAJOR. The Big Book tells us that 'more will be revealed.' Over the years, more has come back. Things, people, actions, that had been missed on a previous 4th or 4th's. So I would do another and get with my sponsor.

Now I have to tell you, I still have no memory of about July of '72 through September of '73. Oh I know some things from what others have told me occurred but they are their memories not my own. I have come to accept I may never remember that time frame, so be it.

As with each 4th and 5th steps I have taken, when done I am satisfied I have covered everything know to me up until that time.

I also have worked with many others and quite a few of them has done a second and sometimes a third 4th and 5th as they too have 'remembered' things that were not apparent when their previous steps were done.

I daily use my 10th step, this is not about current things. My additional 4th and 5th steps were done to continue to clear out the WRECKAGE OF MY PAST that was not apparent to me at the time of my original 4th and 5th Step.

Hope that helps.

Love and hugs,

ps. I did have brain damage. I have been shown by Neurologist where my brain over the years has built new 'pathways' to compensate for the old pathways that I destroyed. I have also been told by him and previous Neurologists that this is common in chronic alcoholics/addicts that manage to find recovery.

laurie6781

I think, if you are becoming aware of more WRECKAGE, which does happen often, as our brains clear and we start functioning better, that this is an EXCELLENT idea. It will give you more freedom and more ES&H to share.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

RufusACanal

Keep it simple, follow the directions in the Big Book and call your Sponsor with questions.

navysteve

I too have done a few fourth steps. I have gone through times in my recovery where I was unwilling to do a 10th step daily, weekly, monthly or quarterly. You see I am lazy when it comes to maintenance. I am a great project starter but I tend to get lax after a while...

Practicing the 12 steps is an individual adventure. The way I understand the 10th step is that it works great if I am staying in fit spiritual condition. When I fall out of sync I may need a deeper look. I never understand why folks have an issue with that. I often do a 5th step every year with my sponsor or a spiritual advisor. By doing that I have found deep seeded garbage that escaped me before. And I no longer fear my past, doing another thorough inventory is not a scary experience and like any other practice, it only gets better the more I do it...

Can't count the amount of times I have taken a written inventory to someone else for a 5th step. I have even used a sponsee before.

That is something I try to do also.

McGowdog

Thanks for your experience, NavySteve.

I did an inventory a long time ago with someone in Denver and he had me look up the word "deep". The working definition for that word that I found was "far back in time" and "difficult to penetrate or understand."

So if you think you can buzz through the steps in one shot and never visit them again, have at it.

I have written very good, meaningful and current inventory over the last 5 years. The bummer is this, it gets pretty disgusting to see what I do sober, much less back when I was drinking. My first inventory explored things I did while I was drinking or inbetween drunks. Coming to terms with things I do stark raving sober is even more gut-wrenching!

I guess I just don't come from the school of... "Now that I'm sober... life is 8-Jobs and lollypops!"

Here's my working definition of "resting on our laurels"... everything that I did today to "keep myself sober."

I also don't believe that I'm sober on grace. Not unless grace implies my action. God loves me drunk or sober. My sobriety and spiritual fitness is my responsibility. Doing steps yearly is a pretty darn good way to head in that direction.

lizw

I'm ten years sober and have written inventory and shared it with my sponsor on average of about once a year since I got sober. 2 years in some cases.

I do this because (step 12) ".....we practise these principals in all our affairs."
And for me looking at myself and taking stock is something I should be doing on a regular basis. It is also (as our literature points out) the practise of many spiritual individuals and that the only people who never sort guidance were folks like Hitler and look what he did.

I don't just get sober and then magically stay that way for the rest of my life. It has also been my expereince that 'drinking' for want of a better expression has not been my only problem in my life BUT the only way I have been able to identify that has been through taking inventory and discussing myself and my behavior with another person, in a detached fashion. I think whether you call it the 4th or the 10th steps makes no difference really.

I also do this because when something major happens in my life, that I am not happy with, I have a part to play in it and find taking inventory makes it easier to identify instead of coming up with where I went wrong on my own. Our BB lists many reasons why one ought to take the 5th too.

As far as I am aware, taking inventory etc... is called spiritual growth and growing up and if we don't continual to grow then we go drinking.

I reckon I have know more people who've drunk because they are too scared of the 4/5th than I have people who drunk because they stopped going to meetings. I think there is a connection there because what would you do if you didn't want to get honest? I know I'd start with not going to meetings...

ian_g

I don't think anyone is saying that just buzz through the steps and that's it McGow. I'm not sure what lead you to this conclusion. What was being said is you go through and continue to make amends and live in 10,11 and 12 on a daily basis. That was all that was being said...I understand what Steve was saying in addition about falling into that state where resentment piles up and one needs to take a longer look at it. My point was that if the 10th step is worked diligently on a daily basis, it is unlikely that yesterday's resentments will build up and carry over into today. That is if one take the honest look at them in the 10th step and asks God to direct their attention to what He would have them be.

Music

Do what your sponsor is asking you to do. If you have a problem with something she tells you to do, talk to her about it. Don't come here trying to drum up support for something you disagree with.

miss communicat

I agree with Laurie. My experience has been that i've been able to go deeper over the course of time.

I also agree with the others who suggest that daily maintenance at step 10, and working Steps 6 + 7 is the optimal way to live sober.

I find myself somewhere in between these days. I live in an ongoing inventory process, and actually enjoy that. Some days, i am guided deeper than a cursory Step 10 mental sweep would take me. But not as far as taking pencil to paper and 4 column-ing it.

My sponsor and I talk very inquiringly and honestly about issues and we process quite alot together.

But, if my Sponsor suggested I take Steps 4/5 again formally, I would do it immediately.

gravity

I have done step 4 twice – at about 3 months and again at 10 months (part of a 12 step commitment group).

I found the experience the second time to be mostly positive:

My second step 4 was much shorter. The progress in moving on from most of my resentments & fears is clear. Any resentments & fears still left over from my first inventory are much less intense. It served as a good assessment – I am moving forward, the program works.

What really helped was to honestly ask myself “what is bothering me today” and not what bothered me when I first sobered up. This helped me avoid the tendency to live in the past and rehash things that are no longer issues.

My first step 4 was fear driven (scared I would drink again). The second time was much more positive – I viewed it as a great opportunity for spiritual growth. For my second time through the steps, I used a simpler, by the book approach.

I had a much better perspective on what I was doing. The first time, I let negativity get to me. I was writing down all this bad stuff about myself and it made me feel like a bad person. The second time, I had greater acceptance of myself as an imperfect human being and I knew that I was only writing about my negative characteristics and my part in my resentments – this is only a small part of who I am. This did not take away from the bigger picture - I am a good person.

One negative thing: I found that many people in the commitment group seemed intent on drilling down, going deeper on the same old resentments even though they supposedly dealt with these things years ago in past step 4’s. I felt like I was expected to do the same. It really left me with the unspoken thoughts “aren’t we supposed to move on?” and "I don't want to be talking about the same stuff 10 years from now." Just my thoughts. Whatever works I suppose.

Personally, I have no issues with doing step 4 again. Truthfully, there are some fears that I still have not fully let go of (huge progress though) and I am not that diligent on doing my step 10 every day (things build up). If I felt like I needed to or my sponsor asked me to, I would do it. No big deal. It's a good thing!

McGowdog

Oh I'm all about the 10th step. In fact, if you come to my meetings, we'll be chairing on it and talking our experience about it.

Many many meetings I've been to all over the country and even the world are about steps 1, 2, 3, the newcomer, gratitude, and fear.

I use the 10th step to move me into the 11th step. But when I want to romp and stomp and break somebody's face, I may be so lucky to call a fellow AA and 10th step it.

But every year we do steps. It's just that simple.

Some people don't do that. I feel sorry for them.

Freedom1990

Yep, yep, and yep. My sponsor compares it to a 55 gallon drum of water sitting outside, and every so often, crap floats up to the top. You skim the crud off! Such has been my experience with doing more than one 4th and 5th step.

I too have huge chunks of memory still missing after all these years. I'm just glad I have one functioning brain cell left!

24hrsAday

thank you everyone for the input! music.. i am a man and so is my sponsor. i really did not understand your comment.. i am the one who told him i wanted to do another 4th step.

Ago

I found when I followed instructions exactly how they were layed out in the book I couldn't go wrong.

"More will be revealed"

That's what happens with some of us as we stay sober.

I guess with others that's not the case.

When more is revealed I, and many others I know have found it helpful to do another fourth step.

In the 12 and 12 it talks about some of us doing a fourth step periodically, annually or even more often.

I actually found doing the steps "along" with "Joe and Charley" was helpful

I also found that doing the steps again with a different sponsor was extremely helpful, another pair of eyes on the same situation amazing things were uncovered that I hadn't seen before.

My last fourth step (prior to this one) stopped abruptly at the point in my life where I did the previous fourth step. I just didn't have anything to write down.

This fourth step brought up family stuff and relationship dynamics I hadn't known I was carrying around.

Personally I do fourth steps to grow.

I would never questions someones resolve to grow and to do more in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, whether it was by doing the steps again or pursuing a deeper spiritual journey, I actually encourage it.

So just so some wouldn't understand the need to dig deeper on this journey, I couldn't comprehend NOT digging deeper.

Some come in the program, do their fourth step on a matchbook cover in their first night of sobriety, and are miracles of mental health immediately with no need for further growth for the next twenty-thirty years, I'm just not one of those people, neither were Bill or Bob last I checked.

Good for you for re-doing your steps, more WILL be revealed

Music

Sorry 24. For some reason I thought you were female. I stand corrected.