A Question Of Faith
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A Question Of Faith
I see the topic of belief in a higher power debated a lot on these forums. It's an interesting topic because it really is the mystery of all mysteries, all religions ask us to believe in a higher power that can't be easily proven.
I recently had a conversation with a relative that is a research scientist who works on gene therapy, DNA that type of thing. It's interesting that he said that his work has actually strengthened his belief in God as oppossed to turning him into an athiest. He said that he sees intelligent design in everything, he used DNA as an example, he called DNA a very elaborate "blueprint" that clearly has intelligent design behind it.
I didn't think much about this conversation which occurred at a family funeral but the more I thought about what he said the more it made sense. For example a computer program is made up of "code" that must be arranged in a certain way to execute a program, every computer program has intelligent design behind it in much the same way that DNA has intelligent design behind it.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and we were taught that God is infinite, that he always was and always will be. The problem is that the human brain can't really comprehend this concept. To us everything has a beginning and an end, there is birth, life and death all things in our understanding must begin and end, nothing is forever. So the million dollar question is just how does a rational thinking person fit an infinite "God" into the equation?
I thought about this for a long time and "Faith" was really the only answer I could come up with. I have "faith" that when I turn my computer on it will work but I don't understand every aspect of how it works. I can build a computer, put the parts together, load windows and push the power button and it will work but only because there is a lot of intelligent design that went into making those parts do what they do. So it all gets back to faith one way or another. When I plant my garden I have "faith" that the seeds will grow because there is a blueprint or intelligent design that causes the seed to grow.
What does any of this have to do with recovery? Well for me anyhow just quitting drinking with out faith in a power greater than myself is kind of empty and meaningless. I just find that it makes a lot more sense to believe that there is intelligent design behind all things then to believe that everything just happened at random. Any thoughts on my latest ramblings?
I recently had a conversation with a relative that is a research scientist who works on gene therapy, DNA that type of thing. It's interesting that he said that his work has actually strengthened his belief in God as oppossed to turning him into an athiest. He said that he sees intelligent design in everything, he used DNA as an example, he called DNA a very elaborate "blueprint" that clearly has intelligent design behind it.
I didn't think much about this conversation which occurred at a family funeral but the more I thought about what he said the more it made sense. For example a computer program is made up of "code" that must be arranged in a certain way to execute a program, every computer program has intelligent design behind it in much the same way that DNA has intelligent design behind it.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and we were taught that God is infinite, that he always was and always will be. The problem is that the human brain can't really comprehend this concept. To us everything has a beginning and an end, there is birth, life and death all things in our understanding must begin and end, nothing is forever. So the million dollar question is just how does a rational thinking person fit an infinite "God" into the equation?
I thought about this for a long time and "Faith" was really the only answer I could come up with. I have "faith" that when I turn my computer on it will work but I don't understand every aspect of how it works. I can build a computer, put the parts together, load windows and push the power button and it will work but only because there is a lot of intelligent design that went into making those parts do what they do. So it all gets back to faith one way or another. When I plant my garden I have "faith" that the seeds will grow because there is a blueprint or intelligent design that causes the seed to grow.
What does any of this have to do with recovery? Well for me anyhow just quitting drinking with out faith in a power greater than myself is kind of empty and meaningless. I just find that it makes a lot more sense to believe that there is intelligent design behind all things then to believe that everything just happened at random. Any thoughts on my latest ramblings?
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Originally Posted by backtosquareone
For example a computer program is made up of "code" that must be arranged in a certain way to execute a program, every computer program has intelligent design behind it in much the same way that DNA has intelligent design behind it.
I think the way we describe our bodies are because we want to simplify how we work.
For me there is so much out there that we cannot comprehend, it's enough for me that the universe and all it's laws, is far greater than anything i am.
Paul
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What does any of this have to do with recovery? Well for me anyhow just quitting Great thread. For Faith to work I do not believe we need to believe in any particular entity. I think at the essence of the 1st step we open up the door to greater forces than ourselves. "I" cannot get sober by the greatest exertion of my will but "We" can. That is a form of faith in a power greater than me. A concept as simple as "truth" is a power greater than myself. I used to get hung up on the innacuracies of the Bible and religious frailties. We see the same thing in AA today.
Because it makes practicle sense. There is more than one reason for this - part of it will be the sense of community and the relationships fostered, but that doesn't account for all of it. A large part of it is due to the meaning, purpose and value which believing in God gives you, whereas not believing in God can leave you without those things.
I am not saying that any one religions concept of God is right or wrong, but from the beginning of time, we have been trying to define that power which is all around us. I do not believe we are any closer today in the Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist religions today than we were in the days of Ahuru Mazda. Here is an ancient prayer said in ancient Iraq:
Grant, O thou Asha, the reward, the blessing of Good Thought; O Piety, give our desire to Vishtaspa and to me; O thou Mazda and King, grant that your Prophet may command a hearing.
From the Hindus:
"Fair as a jasmine flower, the moon or a flake of snow,
Dressed in white, her hands adorned by the graceful veena staff,
Adorned by Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and the other deities,
Protect me, Oh Goddess Saraswati, remover of ignorance."
We see in prayer and spiritual belief an attempt to live in harmony with the world around us and follow a nobler path. To walk with a purpose ( trudge)
drinking with out faith in a power greater than myself is kind of empty and meaningless. I just find that it makes a lot more sense to believe that there is intelligent design behind all things then to believe that everything just happened at random. Any thoughts on my latest ramblings?
So the million dollar question is just how does a rational thinking person fit an infinite "God" into the equation?
I am not saying that any one religions concept of God is right or wrong, but from the beginning of time, we have been trying to define that power which is all around us. I do not believe we are any closer today in the Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist religions today than we were in the days of Ahuru Mazda. Here is an ancient prayer said in ancient Iraq:
Grant, O thou Asha, the reward, the blessing of Good Thought; O Piety, give our desire to Vishtaspa and to me; O thou Mazda and King, grant that your Prophet may command a hearing.
From the Hindus:
"Fair as a jasmine flower, the moon or a flake of snow,
Dressed in white, her hands adorned by the graceful veena staff,
Adorned by Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and the other deities,
Protect me, Oh Goddess Saraswati, remover of ignorance."
We see in prayer and spiritual belief an attempt to live in harmony with the world around us and follow a nobler path. To walk with a purpose ( trudge)
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I have heard it said that it takes far more faith to be an aethiest then to believe in a Higher Power..... You know when I first heard that I really kind of stratched my head but then I thought about it......... It really does take a great deal of faith to feel that the vast majority of the people in the world are wrong for beleiving in a HP. It would take a great deal of faith to beleive that EVERYTHING is merely an accident.
Who knows, they may be right, I may be wrong, but I have faith in my HP that I understand, I call him God for simplification, but is my HP defined by any religion? None that I have heard of, yet at the same time He is defined by all of them in thier basic tenents.
If I am wrong what have I lost? Not a darn thing!!! What have I gained even if I am wrong? Life itself, peace, serenity, sobriety, and a feeling of being one with the world.
Who knows, they may be right, I may be wrong, but I have faith in my HP that I understand, I call him God for simplification, but is my HP defined by any religion? None that I have heard of, yet at the same time He is defined by all of them in thier basic tenents.
If I am wrong what have I lost? Not a darn thing!!! What have I gained even if I am wrong? Life itself, peace, serenity, sobriety, and a feeling of being one with the world.
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I had tried the way of faith many times and I kept getting drunk.One day,I set it aside and did what AA suggested and got the results.I was sober.The results brought me Faith then.
Maybe the big book is right,deep down in every man woman or child is....even if DNA is part of it.
Maybe the big book is right,deep down in every man woman or child is....even if DNA is part of it.
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I think I have shared before that I have always been a bit of a searcher...reading ALL kinds of religious texts and spiritual books. Actually TALKING to the mormons and Jehova's Witness' that would come to my door about God, faith, being, existence. As good as I have always been at science and mathematics, there is a perfection to this universe that is truly incomprehensible.
At a retreat last summer, our guest was sharing and used a scene from a movie that just made perfect sense. Joe vs the Volcano - Tom Hanks is lost at sea, on his raft - it's more than a bit melancholy. The the moon rises and he looks at it, in awe stating "I forgot how big..." It really is an amazing scene and makes so much sense.
I had those moments - sober. As a child, teen, adult - moments that were 'perfect' for no reason at all. There is no need to go into the specifics of what they were - but that was my concept when I took the 3rd step.
I don't know if my faith grows...It did with liqour, I slowly came to rely on it - could depend on it to fix how I was feeling and I had no doubt it would work. My faith now is more along the line of trust - and pushing further into the 'unknown' - because it's so big that there is nowhere I can be where "it" isn't.
It has been a wonderful gift to see where religious people are right - there isn't any effort to it. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and stopped going when I was 18, that very day. I held a big grudge, almost contempt for anything catholic - not really sure why. Then one day I picked up a book called "The Way of Chuang Tzu" on the recommendation from a friend who said it was the epitome of Taoism - Since I loved the Tao of Pooh when I read it at 15 years old, I jumped on it. I drove to the store and could not find it, the website said it was in-stock, so I grabbed a worker and tried to pronounce the title and he said "Why are you looking for Thomas Merton books, have you read him much?" - and a long dialogue took place about all "THIS", right in the book store (a large chain store too, not a spiritual-based shop at all). Though it never came up, I am pretty sure that gentleman was a recovered alcoholic.
ANYHOW- I read Merton and loved it (The Way of Chuang Tzu)- I told my sponsor about it in casual conversation..he mentioned that "New Seeds of Contemplation" was also good.
I read that and my disdain for the catholic faith melted away - there is truth in there.
I could honestly write a lot more about the chain of circumstances that came from the recommendation for that Chuang Tzu book- including my first potential sponsee who decided that Contemplative Practice and a group dedicated to that would keep him sober (he drank within a week)...he knew too much about God to actually experience God. I hope he makes it back - a passionate guy that can help a lot of people but needs to break a little more, lose faith that he main gain experience.
Good thread - setting the day up nicely
~Adam
At a retreat last summer, our guest was sharing and used a scene from a movie that just made perfect sense. Joe vs the Volcano - Tom Hanks is lost at sea, on his raft - it's more than a bit melancholy. The the moon rises and he looks at it, in awe stating "I forgot how big..." It really is an amazing scene and makes so much sense.
I had those moments - sober. As a child, teen, adult - moments that were 'perfect' for no reason at all. There is no need to go into the specifics of what they were - but that was my concept when I took the 3rd step.
I don't know if my faith grows...It did with liqour, I slowly came to rely on it - could depend on it to fix how I was feeling and I had no doubt it would work. My faith now is more along the line of trust - and pushing further into the 'unknown' - because it's so big that there is nowhere I can be where "it" isn't.
It has been a wonderful gift to see where religious people are right - there isn't any effort to it. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and stopped going when I was 18, that very day. I held a big grudge, almost contempt for anything catholic - not really sure why. Then one day I picked up a book called "The Way of Chuang Tzu" on the recommendation from a friend who said it was the epitome of Taoism - Since I loved the Tao of Pooh when I read it at 15 years old, I jumped on it. I drove to the store and could not find it, the website said it was in-stock, so I grabbed a worker and tried to pronounce the title and he said "Why are you looking for Thomas Merton books, have you read him much?" - and a long dialogue took place about all "THIS", right in the book store (a large chain store too, not a spiritual-based shop at all). Though it never came up, I am pretty sure that gentleman was a recovered alcoholic.
ANYHOW- I read Merton and loved it (The Way of Chuang Tzu)- I told my sponsor about it in casual conversation..he mentioned that "New Seeds of Contemplation" was also good.
I read that and my disdain for the catholic faith melted away - there is truth in there.
I could honestly write a lot more about the chain of circumstances that came from the recommendation for that Chuang Tzu book- including my first potential sponsee who decided that Contemplative Practice and a group dedicated to that would keep him sober (he drank within a week)...he knew too much about God to actually experience God. I hope he makes it back - a passionate guy that can help a lot of people but needs to break a little more, lose faith that he main gain experience.
Good thread - setting the day up nicely
~Adam
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An accident, or big bang theory is like throwing a hand gernade into a junk yard and when the smoke and dust clears, there stands a perfect outfitted 747 jet liner.
The other alternative is believing that humans have all the answers which means that I must have faith that Obama and his congress know what to do, are doing it and that all will be well. Sorry!!! With six months sober I wanted to drink. I prayed to HP, God, or whatever else was "out there" at that time and I haven't had to drink to this day. My sence of security comes from believing that there is a God and neither I, nor any other human being is He! My sence of serenity comes from acting in a way that I think would please God, which in turn means that today I don't behave in a way that would cause me to feel guilt or remorse. As is stated in the Big Book after step 10, my code is to try my best to be loving and tolerant of myself and others. In the story of Moses, when he made the trek up the mountain and came face to face with the burning bush, he asked "who should I tell the people who you are?" The answer was, "I am, who am!!" God just is!! That's the way I accept Him because to do any different would limit Him according to my human, finite mind. He just is! This belief gives me comfort, serenity and security, instead of restlessness, irritability, and discontentment, and isn't that what it's all about? Can I get my head around it? No! But, I don't have to. I just have to have faith.
The other alternative is believing that humans have all the answers which means that I must have faith that Obama and his congress know what to do, are doing it and that all will be well. Sorry!!! With six months sober I wanted to drink. I prayed to HP, God, or whatever else was "out there" at that time and I haven't had to drink to this day. My sence of security comes from believing that there is a God and neither I, nor any other human being is He! My sence of serenity comes from acting in a way that I think would please God, which in turn means that today I don't behave in a way that would cause me to feel guilt or remorse. As is stated in the Big Book after step 10, my code is to try my best to be loving and tolerant of myself and others. In the story of Moses, when he made the trek up the mountain and came face to face with the burning bush, he asked "who should I tell the people who you are?" The answer was, "I am, who am!!" God just is!! That's the way I accept Him because to do any different would limit Him according to my human, finite mind. He just is! This belief gives me comfort, serenity and security, instead of restlessness, irritability, and discontentment, and isn't that what it's all about? Can I get my head around it? No! But, I don't have to. I just have to have faith.
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"So the million dollar question is just how does a rational thinking person fit an infinite "God" into the equation? "
Well, actually, I think the real million dollar question is how rational and/or clearly thinking is the person who expects to be able to "grasp" the divine with his/her rational/thinking mind? As far as I can tell that right there is an irrational expectation, bordering on the insane.
Personally, I have found that my intellect and my reasoning mind, unless very closely and strictly supervised, tend to do more harm than good in this area. Feeling, intuition, imagination (in the sense used by the early 19th century romantics), just being present in the here and now (with as little intellectual "blah, blah, blah" as possible) is where and how I meet "God."
...as far as fitting "God" into "my" equation goes, well no equation I could come come up with would be "big" enough to hold "Him," so I guess I'll just content myself with working on "understanding," on a non-rational level, where and how I fit into "His."
freya
Well, actually, I think the real million dollar question is how rational and/or clearly thinking is the person who expects to be able to "grasp" the divine with his/her rational/thinking mind? As far as I can tell that right there is an irrational expectation, bordering on the insane.
Personally, I have found that my intellect and my reasoning mind, unless very closely and strictly supervised, tend to do more harm than good in this area. Feeling, intuition, imagination (in the sense used by the early 19th century romantics), just being present in the here and now (with as little intellectual "blah, blah, blah" as possible) is where and how I meet "God."
...as far as fitting "God" into "my" equation goes, well no equation I could come come up with would be "big" enough to hold "Him," so I guess I'll just content myself with working on "understanding," on a non-rational level, where and how I fit into "His."
freya
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It's interesting that if you get into deep introspection you come to see that our lives as we know them are really just a collection of memories. It is the sum total of all of our experiences from the day we were born. Our "collection of memories" though it may seem impressive to us is really like a grain of sand in the desert. In the grand scheme of things, whatever that may be, we all know very little. Our consciousness is stuck in these things we call bodies and to an extent is limited by what we can experience by our 5 senses.
Since the beginning of time man has sought to alter his state of consciousness through the use of drugs + alcohol and this method has never worked very well in the past but there's always a fresh crop of victims ready to step up to the plate and give it a shot. People have also experimented with meditation and other approaches to reach that altered state with varying degrees of success.
Beyond the 5 senses our brains are capable of awareness of many things. We then get into the realm of pure consciousness and mystical experiences and it is this realm that we know very little about. The mystical or spiritual realm transcends human understanding. Because it transcends human understanding it can only exist in faith, trust and belief. The soul, afterlife, God or "Higher Power" are all part of the spiritual realm.
Although I believe in God it is my understanding that a "Higher Power" doesn't have to be tied to a belief in God or any particular religion. It only requires a belief in a power greater than yourself. If you just open your eyes and look at everything around you or look up at the sky and you still conclude that there is not a power greater than yourself involved in everything then I doubt that you'll ever be convinced
Since the beginning of time man has sought to alter his state of consciousness through the use of drugs + alcohol and this method has never worked very well in the past but there's always a fresh crop of victims ready to step up to the plate and give it a shot. People have also experimented with meditation and other approaches to reach that altered state with varying degrees of success.
Beyond the 5 senses our brains are capable of awareness of many things. We then get into the realm of pure consciousness and mystical experiences and it is this realm that we know very little about. The mystical or spiritual realm transcends human understanding. Because it transcends human understanding it can only exist in faith, trust and belief. The soul, afterlife, God or "Higher Power" are all part of the spiritual realm.
Although I believe in God it is my understanding that a "Higher Power" doesn't have to be tied to a belief in God or any particular religion. It only requires a belief in a power greater than yourself. If you just open your eyes and look at everything around you or look up at the sky and you still conclude that there is not a power greater than yourself involved in everything then I doubt that you'll ever be convinced
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne 
It's interesting that if you get into deep introspection you come to see that our lives as we know them are really just a collection of memories.
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