Singleness of Purpose
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
The question is do you feel a "real alcoholic" can also suffer from a medical condition?
Such as diabetes, depression or high blood pressure, which require care and in some cases medication, or do you not feel depression, or bi-polar, or anxiety are "real" medical conditions, and they are "all in your head"?
Kinda like what they used to say about alcoholism before they classified it as an illness.
that's good, but these people aren't your sponsees, and depression isn't despair, and if you don't know anything about depression why are you giving medical advice, and yes, telling people if they are on meds that AA isn't the place for them IS giving "medical advice"
I'm going to go work the steps at my diabetes now and call my plumber about this pain in my chest, I'll talk to you later.
Such as diabetes, depression or high blood pressure, which require care and in some cases medication, or do you not feel depression, or bi-polar, or anxiety are "real" medical conditions, and they are "all in your head"?
Kinda like what they used to say about alcoholism before they classified it as an illness.
A good sponsor admits his/her limitations and tries to steer the sponcee in the right direction to find help.
I am the first to admit that I don't know much about depression but I do know a lot about despair (Fourth Horsemen of the Apocalypse). The same spiritual tools that I use to treat my alcoholism work surprisingly well to chase him away as well.
I am the first to admit that I don't know much about depression but I do know a lot about despair (Fourth Horsemen of the Apocalypse). The same spiritual tools that I use to treat my alcoholism work surprisingly well to chase him away as well.
I'm going to go work the steps at my diabetes now and call my plumber about this pain in my chest, I'll talk to you later.
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Ago 
that's good, but these people aren't your sponsees, and depression isn't despair, and if you don't know anything about depression why are you giving medical advice, and yes, telling people if they are on meds that AA isn't the place for them IS giving "medical advice"
That's like saying the phrase "Don't ask me, see a Doctor" is some sort of medical advice because the "see a Doctor" part sounds a bit like medical advice. To a 5 year old, perhaps it would.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
A good sponsor admits his/her limitations and tries to steer the sponcee in the right direction to find help.
Telling an alcoholic that AA can't help IS "kicking them out" of AA
That's twice you haven't answered the question
The question is do you feel a "real alcoholic" can also suffer from a medical condition?
I'm off to hang out with Rush Limbaugh and ask him about Sobriety...I need more "skewed data" and "talking points"
This, once again, is the AA "approved" literature, this IS the party line of the program you purport to love so much.
I guess "take what you need and leave the rest" huh Boleo?
The AA Member, Medications and other drugs.
From the AA Pamphlet
Because this subject is one which goes deeply into the field of medicine, a group of physicians who are members of A. A. were asked to help prepare this pamphlet.
The experience of some A. A. members reveals that the drug misuse can threaten the achievement and maintenance of sobriety.
Yet some A. A. members must take prescribed medication in order to treat certain serious medical problems.
Experience has shown this problem can be minimized if the following suggestions are carefully heeded:
* Remember that as a recovering alcoholic your automatic response will be to turn to chemical relief for uncomfortable feelings and to take more the than usual, prescribed amount. Look for non-chemical solutions for the aches and discomforts of everyday living.
* Remember that the best safeguard against drug related relapse is an active participation in the A. A. program of recovery.
* No A. A. Member Plays Doctor.
* Be completely honest with yourself and your physician regarding use of medication.
* If in doubt, consult a physician with demonstrated experience in the treatment of alcoholism.
* Be frank about your alcoholism with any physician or dentist you consult. Such confidence will be respected and is most helpful to the doctor.
* Inform the physician at once if you experience side effect from prescribed drugs.
* Consider consulting another doctor if a personal physician refuses or fails to recognize the peculiar susceptibility of alcoholics to sedatives, tranquilizers, and stimulants.
At the same time we recognize this dangerous tendency in re-addiction, we also recognize that alcoholics are not immune to other diseases.
* Some of us have had to cope with depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.
Because of the difficulties that many alcoholics have with drugs, some members have taken the position that no on in A. A. should take any medication. While this position has undoubtedly prevented relapses for some, it has meant disaster for others.
A. A. members and many of their physicians have described situation in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.’s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.
We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics and others requiring medication that well meaning A. A. friends have often discourage them from taking prescribed medication.
Unfortunately, by following layman’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all the their previous intensity.
On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that " A. A. is against pills."
It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become re-addicted to any drug, it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….
From the AA Pamphlet
Because this subject is one which goes deeply into the field of medicine, a group of physicians who are members of A. A. were asked to help prepare this pamphlet.
The experience of some A. A. members reveals that the drug misuse can threaten the achievement and maintenance of sobriety.
Yet some A. A. members must take prescribed medication in order to treat certain serious medical problems.
Experience has shown this problem can be minimized if the following suggestions are carefully heeded:
* Remember that as a recovering alcoholic your automatic response will be to turn to chemical relief for uncomfortable feelings and to take more the than usual, prescribed amount. Look for non-chemical solutions for the aches and discomforts of everyday living.
* Remember that the best safeguard against drug related relapse is an active participation in the A. A. program of recovery.
* No A. A. Member Plays Doctor.
* Be completely honest with yourself and your physician regarding use of medication.
* If in doubt, consult a physician with demonstrated experience in the treatment of alcoholism.
* Be frank about your alcoholism with any physician or dentist you consult. Such confidence will be respected and is most helpful to the doctor.
* Inform the physician at once if you experience side effect from prescribed drugs.
* Consider consulting another doctor if a personal physician refuses or fails to recognize the peculiar susceptibility of alcoholics to sedatives, tranquilizers, and stimulants.
At the same time we recognize this dangerous tendency in re-addiction, we also recognize that alcoholics are not immune to other diseases.
* Some of us have had to cope with depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.
Because of the difficulties that many alcoholics have with drugs, some members have taken the position that no on in A. A. should take any medication. While this position has undoubtedly prevented relapses for some, it has meant disaster for others.
A. A. members and many of their physicians have described situation in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.’s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.
We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics and others requiring medication that well meaning A. A. friends have often discourage them from taking prescribed medication.
Unfortunately, by following layman’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all the their previous intensity.
On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that " A. A. is against pills."
It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become re-addicted to any drug, it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….
Last edited by Ago; 11-10-2008 at 08:52 PM.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central, La.
Posts: 422
It comes to mind, page 86 in the BB.....",for after all God gave us brains to use." It would be wise to be practical, even simple, help our fellow man. Try to understand, than to be understood, to love, than to be loved(12&12 pg99).
I have experienced a number of things in my addiction. I drank, used drugs, suffered suicidal depression, self-hatred, suicide attempts (like driving a 6inch kitchen knife in my stomach and missing my aorta by a millimeter). The detoxes, treatment centers, psych wards. I used for 40 years and thought I was hopeless. AA was my oasis in the desert of addiction. I found what I needed in AA. I also found good things in NA, therapy, and a set daily routine of prayer, meditation, and self-examination. It works and it should be available to anyone who wants it. If not AA then somewhere! No one should suffer. It is a miracle to find surrender and acceptance. To understand that there is a God of my understanding. From one who thought God was for idiots! I was too busy playing god myself. Recovery is for all who want it, sadly it is not for those who just need it.
It is not enough to want change, need change. The only way to change is to experience it. Do it. Lets be there for that hand which reaches out of the darkness.......
Quote: BB-Alcoholics Anonymous
First Edition
I have experienced a number of things in my addiction. I drank, used drugs, suffered suicidal depression, self-hatred, suicide attempts (like driving a 6inch kitchen knife in my stomach and missing my aorta by a millimeter). The detoxes, treatment centers, psych wards. I used for 40 years and thought I was hopeless. AA was my oasis in the desert of addiction. I found what I needed in AA. I also found good things in NA, therapy, and a set daily routine of prayer, meditation, and self-examination. It works and it should be available to anyone who wants it. If not AA then somewhere! No one should suffer. It is a miracle to find surrender and acceptance. To understand that there is a God of my understanding. From one who thought God was for idiots! I was too busy playing god myself. Recovery is for all who want it, sadly it is not for those who just need it.
It is not enough to want change, need change. The only way to change is to experience it. Do it. Lets be there for that hand which reaches out of the darkness.......
Quote: BB-Alcoholics Anonymous
First Edition
Last edited by CarolD; 11-10-2008 at 09:35 PM. Reason: Added Source
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
@tarheel
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...alcoholic.html
is an attempt to define "real alcoholic" after this thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...lcoholics.html
it's something I have never given much thought to until I came here but evidently AA has been inundated by "non-real" alcoholics and it's "blowing" our batting average and watering down our program.
people who suffer from multiple addictions, "problems other then alcohol", "heavy drinkers", straight "addicts", are among them.
I say "real" alcoholic in this thread just to remove that as a "talking point" or "hole" in my point of view.
The book defines "real alcoholic" in my opinion so that a "real alcoholic" could diagnose themself, but now it's being used as "ammunition" to try to keep people out of AA or create an "us vs them" mentality or to create some fictional "good old days" that quite frankly never happened since the first "addicts" that appeared were among the "first 100" that wrote the book.
It's also being used bizarrely enough in my opinion so people can feel "better then" and "superior" which is so bass ackwards as to be incomprehensible.
Next thing you know they will be wanting to let women, gays, and african americans in AA.......can you imagine....my god we let these people in next thing you know we will start having to let furriners in...maybe even the French......doncha know AA is for God fearing amurican white males that only drank...well they mighta seen maryjewanna but they certainly didn't inhale?
sorry...all this bickering in this forum kinda left a sour taste in my mouth...I have never seen anything like it, The AA I was "raised with" said “I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible." and "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"
I mean when and where I got sober we'd go out and argue the Big Book until 3 or 4 AM in the morning and it sometimes got pretty personal but we NEVER denied the "the right" of any alcoholic to seek help in the "rooms" of AA
I have been to AA meetings all over the world and have never seen anything like some of these threads, it really bummed me out.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...alcoholic.html
is an attempt to define "real alcoholic" after this thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...lcoholics.html
it's something I have never given much thought to until I came here but evidently AA has been inundated by "non-real" alcoholics and it's "blowing" our batting average and watering down our program.
people who suffer from multiple addictions, "problems other then alcohol", "heavy drinkers", straight "addicts", are among them.
I say "real" alcoholic in this thread just to remove that as a "talking point" or "hole" in my point of view.
The book defines "real alcoholic" in my opinion so that a "real alcoholic" could diagnose themself, but now it's being used as "ammunition" to try to keep people out of AA or create an "us vs them" mentality or to create some fictional "good old days" that quite frankly never happened since the first "addicts" that appeared were among the "first 100" that wrote the book.
It's also being used bizarrely enough in my opinion so people can feel "better then" and "superior" which is so bass ackwards as to be incomprehensible.
Next thing you know they will be wanting to let women, gays, and african americans in AA.......can you imagine....my god we let these people in next thing you know we will start having to let furriners in...maybe even the French......doncha know AA is for God fearing amurican white males that only drank...well they mighta seen maryjewanna but they certainly didn't inhale?
sorry...all this bickering in this forum kinda left a sour taste in my mouth...I have never seen anything like it, The AA I was "raised with" said “I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible." and "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"
I mean when and where I got sober we'd go out and argue the Big Book until 3 or 4 AM in the morning and it sometimes got pretty personal but we NEVER denied the "the right" of any alcoholic to seek help in the "rooms" of AA
I have been to AA meetings all over the world and have never seen anything like some of these threads, it really bummed me out.
Last edited by Ago; 11-11-2008 at 01:47 AM.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
If I tell someone that I can't help them and AA has proven track record of failing to help someone like them,
Alcoholism.
Untreated, they will drink. People on meds have folks in AA telling them AA won't work by more than a few in the rooms. How does that factor into your statistic???
it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….
That is the party line
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
I appreciate your post Ago and can reflect. Any human spirit can know exhaustion and without excuse can doubt; many of my past posts do in fact reside in doubt. I have doubted, no less than Peter on my course and who I might benefit the most with the remainder of my time; as if my time if is of some paramount importance, LOL. Doubt equals the absence of faith and an absence of faith means I am without conscious contact. Some days I realize that "my time" is not truly mine, but God's and most other days I pull my rational mind out and attempt to answer life's dilemmas all on my own. Now that I have a better feel for what my humanity is and is not, I can be more tolerant of my fellows (heaven forbid). Several men here help me to remember this and I love them for it.
What do we gain when we debate intangibles? Why not debate those matters that profit us as a community rather than what profit us as individuals? Just a thought…
What do we gain when we debate intangibles? Why not debate those matters that profit us as a community rather than what profit us as individuals? Just a thought…
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
Boleo,I have seen this since 1987
I would like to suggest to you,to just utilize a slogan "easy does it" and let it go.
AA is going to be alright.As a matter of fact,I believe it is probably better now than back in 1987.
I sponsor a man now who used to drink like a fish.15 yrs ago he quit drinking and ended up on pills.For 15 yrs he has took pills and ended up in the nuthouse.
He is 7 months sober and almost done writing out his 4th step,according to the way the big book describes it.He realizes he just traded pills for booze.He realizes he is also a alcoholic.He has been working hard on the program,making many meetings and he is doing good.I need to remember when others say certain things about AA,my big book says the recovery rate is high,for those who really try.
I believe it.
I would like to suggest to you,to just utilize a slogan "easy does it" and let it go.
AA is going to be alright.As a matter of fact,I believe it is probably better now than back in 1987.
I sponsor a man now who used to drink like a fish.15 yrs ago he quit drinking and ended up on pills.For 15 yrs he has took pills and ended up in the nuthouse.
He is 7 months sober and almost done writing out his 4th step,according to the way the big book describes it.He realizes he just traded pills for booze.He realizes he is also a alcoholic.He has been working hard on the program,making many meetings and he is doing good.I need to remember when others say certain things about AA,my big book says the recovery rate is high,for those who really try.
I believe it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
The term "real alcoholic" is not used in the two traditions that define both what our membership is composed of and what our single and primary purpose is.
Tradition Three, long form:
"Our membership ought to include ALL who suffer from alcoholism...."
That means that all alcoholics can be members if they say they are. WE don't care what other problems or maladies an alcoholic has, if they are alcoholic, they belong.
Tradition Five defines our single and primary purpose-that of carrying our message to other alcoholics. That is the sole reason for an AA group to be in existence.
As an individual, how I do my Twelfth-Step work is none of the group's business. I've had the ocassion to work with addicts. My homegroup's conscience is that our meeting is closed. I don't bring addicts there. I'll take them to open AA meetings, but I don't mislead them into believing that they are AA members. My home group's conscience is that men sponsor men and women sponsor women IN THE GROUP. Yet I have been known to take women through the steps. But I don't sponsor them in the group.
This is all really quite simple, but I can't believe how big of a deal you all make of it.
Jim
Tradition Three, long form:
"Our membership ought to include ALL who suffer from alcoholism...."
That means that all alcoholics can be members if they say they are. WE don't care what other problems or maladies an alcoholic has, if they are alcoholic, they belong.
Tradition Five defines our single and primary purpose-that of carrying our message to other alcoholics. That is the sole reason for an AA group to be in existence.
As an individual, how I do my Twelfth-Step work is none of the group's business. I've had the ocassion to work with addicts. My homegroup's conscience is that our meeting is closed. I don't bring addicts there. I'll take them to open AA meetings, but I don't mislead them into believing that they are AA members. My home group's conscience is that men sponsor men and women sponsor women IN THE GROUP. Yet I have been known to take women through the steps. But I don't sponsor them in the group.
This is all really quite simple, but I can't believe how big of a deal you all make of it.
Jim
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5
I had issues with both alcohol and other things, even to the point where I could say I probably used 'other things' more than alcohol. HOWEVER, I am, beyond a shadow of a doubt, an alcoholic. If I were to go out and drink a single drink today, I would be off to the races. I came into AA, and found the twelve steps worked for me. My sponsor had little experience with other things, and we worked the 12 steps the way it was laid out. When I would read, in my mind I would substitute 'alcohol' for anything else I had done (even though alcohol itself was just as pertinent).
When I go to AA meetings, I share about alcohol. Considering I used alcohol the same way I used other things, this doesn't cause me problems whatsoever. I have no problem sharing about my issues with other things outside of the meeting to people who would relate, but when it comes to the meetings, I say I am an alcoholic and share about my alcoholism. When I speak at AA meetings, I try and focus specifically on my drinking alcohol, but have no problem mentioning I had major problems with 'other things', too.
I can't separate my alcoholism from my 'other issues' - to me its all the same thing. I acted the same way with alcohol as I did other things, I felt the same way about other things as I did with alcohol, alcohol did the same things in my life as other things, etc. etc.
I understand there is a singleness of purpose, and it needs to be respected. If you don't feel like you fall under the label of an 'alcoholic', or don't think you need to stop drinking, then perhaps another fellowship would help you out more (you might relate better).
But me being a 'do anything that's available' type of alcoholic, I've found AA to be my home, and I have been welcomed.
When I go to AA meetings, I share about alcohol. Considering I used alcohol the same way I used other things, this doesn't cause me problems whatsoever. I have no problem sharing about my issues with other things outside of the meeting to people who would relate, but when it comes to the meetings, I say I am an alcoholic and share about my alcoholism. When I speak at AA meetings, I try and focus specifically on my drinking alcohol, but have no problem mentioning I had major problems with 'other things', too.
I can't separate my alcoholism from my 'other issues' - to me its all the same thing. I acted the same way with alcohol as I did other things, I felt the same way about other things as I did with alcohol, alcohol did the same things in my life as other things, etc. etc.
I understand there is a singleness of purpose, and it needs to be respected. If you don't feel like you fall under the label of an 'alcoholic', or don't think you need to stop drinking, then perhaps another fellowship would help you out more (you might relate better).
But me being a 'do anything that's available' type of alcoholic, I've found AA to be my home, and I have been welcomed.
Last edited by activia; 11-23-2008 at 06:25 AM. Reason: Spelling!
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