nolonger

Hi, I’ve a question about something that struck me at the few AA meetings I’ve been to so far. There is a reading at the beginning of meetings about those “who cannot follow the program because they are incapable of being honest, maybe they were just born that way” or something like that. It seems very harsh, almost nasty, and the sentiment seems to go against the welcome that I’ve been shown and that comes up elsewhere in the readings. I wondered what anyone else made of it and why it seems so different to the rest of what’s said. Of course, whenever I hear it, I think 'well that's me obviously'.

LucyUK

I can see what you mean but I always understand it to mean people with mental illnesses that are not being, or able to be, treated. It actually says 'constitutionally incapable' of being honest which is where I pick up the mental health aspect.

CarolD

I'm glad to see you are going to meetings!


I suggest you sit down with the Big Book
read for yourself..
"How It Works"

What helped me in early sobriety were the Promises
page 83. And now..
They have all come true for me !!

Blessings

c'est la vie

It was me too. I wasn't honest with myself for years. I would lie to myself and skirt the issue with everyone else or tell part truths (no lying). Then I got to a point where I was outright lying to my husband.

It was a very painful way to live and i've given that up. I try to be as honest as I can with my feelings and motivations. It makes a huge difference. Being honest with yourself is a fundamental requirement of reaching peace of mind.

I think you will find that as you continue to work through the program and learn more about alcohol and your own self that you will begin to open up the lines of honesty. It's not like flipping on the "honesty switch".

barb dwyer

Hi, No -

(this thing has timed out twice so I'm rushing to get it typed)

Used to bug me, too.
Every time I heard it. Or read it.

One thing an oldtimer told me was to have a dictionary handy when reading the BB. Check out 'incomprehensible demoralization' sometime. Blew me away when I did it.

They talked different back then. Just watch an old movie and see what I mean.
Eventually, I realized that, back then (1937) you were pretty much 'insane' or 'not insane'. Black or white. Not a lot of grey in there.

I think it's brilliant they (Bill and the doc & them) intuited the presence of ADHD, PTSD, Multiple personality disorder, and so many other forms of psychological injury from abuse trauma ... years/decades before medicine even 'discovered' them.
Or - maybe Whomever wrote that book through them knew it'd be necessary to include.

The tools we take for granted through modern medicine today were not available back then. Undiagnosed PTSD is exactly that =- a constitutional inablility to see the truth.
It's what your personality is hiding. Trauma.

Back then, indoor plumbing was a fairly techno asset.

Great topic - I'm curious what gets shared!
thanks -

jlo34

"There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Very few people are unable to be totally and completely honest. Through my years of sitting at a lot of tables and hearing many relapses...those who are "chronic" relapsers tend to think that "they" are the ones who are "constitutionally incapable of being honest." Reality, there aren't many and with the advances of medicines...probably less than 1% who fit that category.

I just don't buy that as an excuse. Back in the mid 30s...perhaps. Today, nope.

Try not to get too hung up on the wording. This was written in the 30s. The part that was read is "How it Works" which is chapter 5 of the Big Book. This is frequently read at the beginning of the meeting, especially for newcomers so they can "hear" that there is hope and what you need to do. Please take the time to read it on your own. I believe there's a link to it above in the sticky section.

Good luck on your sobriety. One day at a time. Blessings,
Jen

Sugah

That's from d i c t i o n a r y . c o m. The phrase used to tick me off, too, especially when I was in (and very often fall back into) the state of mind that "it's all about me."

I think it can mean a lot of things. If ego is such that a simple inability to be willing to give the steps a try prevent someone from getting started, I think that can qualify as "constitutionally incapable of being honest." Perhaps some belief systems from childhood or lifetime conditioning have effectively closed the door to an open mindedness necessary to make a start of the AA program of recovery. I know there will be those who will come back and say, "You're just saying the AA program is the only method for personal honesty!" I'm not saying that. I'm saying that open mindedness, the willingness to accept that there may be another truth other than the one I've held fast to, that's kept me drinking, is necessary. It's the simple admission to myself that "I may not be right. I should listen to these folks, read this book, and decide for myself -- after I give it a chance." Discarding personal bias isn't easy. I struggled for years before I came in, became part of and stayed sober.

Just my two cents. Great thread, btw!

Peace & Love,
Sugah

paulmh

Thanks Sugah, I needed to read that today!

FriendofBill

I am unconstitutionally incapable of producing testosterone and growing a beard because I am a female.

The same comparision is made to the mentally ill, or otherwise impaired person whos simply does not have the power to "get it". There are some, and they are unfortunate, as the book states. If you read that book fully, cover to cover, you will never see one meanm offensive word in it.

nolonger

somehow I wound up being the one to read that part out loud tonight. How did that happen? yeek! i was very nervous. Thanks for all the comments. This is a long road ahead. Another day down. Best wishes to all.
Nolonger.

jlo34

Great job Nolonger!!! It all makes sense, in time!!! Just like everything else. For a while, everything seems confusing and weird...but pretty soon everything slowly starts making sense!!! Great job on another sober day!!!

Blessings,
Jen

jimhere

If you can admit the fact that you can't be honest you are being honest.

Found

I've got decided views on this quote. I expect Bill didn't mean it to be mean, but he was Bill and saw things in a Bill-like way. That is the only sentence in the BB I would reword.
This ties in with my posts about diversity and the mindset of acceptance of it among fellow AA members.
I for example not only have a constitutional ailment giving me a two-way communicating disability and sensory processing disabilities (autism), I also have PTSD which many autistic people pick up, and since last night I recognise I have PAWS. So I come over as pretty weird. I get accused of dishonesty. More accurate would be to point out to me that I had expressed myself in an inadequate way. You throw into it that in my family of origin there are huge areas (sex and money) that never got talked about, and that I come from a social class that doesn't talk about those things.
A person like me needs telling more and explaining more. I'm not constitutionally incapable of being DIShonest by any means but with people like me, nothing looks like what it is (body language, choice of words, context). If I get the full range of help I need, I will see how to be assertive with safe people and get honest with them.
So many traumatised autistic people run a mile from what looks like confrontation due to the sheer sensitivity of the situation. Sensitivity ought to be a special gift, not a curse. Many (in institutions) get permanently straight jacketted.
Bill didn't know these things and most institutions don't know them to this day. That is the one sentence I would re-word, to make it mean what it (probably) means.

o2bserene

I am not so much a liar, as I am "reckless" with the truth!!!

Honesty was the topic at the AA meeting I was at last night ... The thing about lying is that I am the only one who can check myself. Others may have a perception about what I am saying/doing, but it all comes down to my motives. What others think about me is none of my business, what I think about others is none of their business (easier said than done!).

But, if I cannot get it donebetween myself, my HP and another human being then I probably cannot stay sober. Instead of looking at why this program "wasn't" working for me, I tried to look at what I really wasn't doing. I had the look good, but that didn't get me the feel good.

For me, if things don't change my sobriety date most certainly will. Don't look at the problems, look at the opportunities.

Di