DesertEyes

Characteristic 7. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty with intimate relationships.

People learn how manage relationships by watching their immediate family and emulating them. I knew from an early age that my biological family was nutzo, and I swore I'd never be like them. That I would never make the same mistakes I saw them doing all the time. So I went and made all sorts of new mistakes :-) I had no idea how to relate to people, never mind make friends or maintain a friendship.

So now I'm just supposed to have "difficulty" with intimacy, when I don't even know how to make friends? Get real people, I haven't got a snowballs chance in a Florida Hurricane of having a clue about intimacy.

And we're not even going to discuss the issues I picked up from having a couple pedophiles amongst my relatives ;-)

Intimacy? Yeah right. Intimacy requires trust. I don't know _how_ to trust. I've taught myself how to trust by reading books, going to shrinks and sticking close to the "winners" in the program. I have learned that fear is the absence of faith in a HP. My inability to trust is the absence of faith in _me_. In my ability to protect myself from harmful people.

Trust means having faith in my own abilities. Trust means knowing from previous experience that I will not continue the abuse that was done to me. That I will protect my "inner child" from the "critic" that never shuts up, that I will avoid harmful people, harmful situations, give myself credit when I do good, rest when I'm tired and attention when I'm lonely.

As I am learning to trust myself, I am learning to trust others.

Mike :-)

splendra

I can't understand why you are saying it is wrong????

ah1979

i don't think he means it is wrong per say...just that it doesn't encompass the whole issue. when you don't know how to relate to people in general intimacy seems totally unacheivable. "what an order!" sometimes you just have to start at the start.

journeygal

DesertEyes

Sorry if I wasn't clear :-( What I'm trying to say is that I don't agree with the _intensity_ of the characteristic. It says that ACoA's have "difficulty with intimate relationships". In my case, intimate relationships have never been a "difficulty", they've been a _huge_ mountain. A chinese wall. So in my case, the charateristic is way too "soft". For me I would say something like

"This particular ACoA hasn't a clue how to deal with intimate relationships."

I am learning. My marriage has been absolutely wonderful the last 20 years or so. We've survived all kinds of obstacles. So the program and all the lessons I've learned there have done a lot of good. We're having a bit of a "thing" the last few months, on top of all the stress that life has brought. I know that in the end everything will work out for the best, even if not necesarily the way _I_ want it :-)

I still don't "intuitively know how to handle" intimate relationships. I'm still operating on stuff I've learned, instead of stuff I feel. But I'll just keep bringing the body until the mind catches up :-)

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

talia

Hey Mike...

teendoc has a great post on intimacy in the Family and Friends forum...

having trust in people...comes with time...the people that I trust the most...and there are few in my life...these are the people that are consistant with their actions...with their words...and are there for me during good times and bad...these are the people that I can say anything to...and these are the people that do not judge me...


these few people in my life are people that have been in my life for years...trust takes time...intimacy was developed in steps..I didn't have immediate trust in any of these people the first time we met...

I have to earn people's trust...and they have to earn mine..I show how trustworhty I am....by my actions...my consistancy...in being who I am...over and over....


talia...

Star Gazer

This is the characteristic am trying to overcome. I didn't always have this problem as severely as I do now, but I was always weary of peoples intentions. I have just been hurt too much. My last break up ruined what little trust I had. After he hurt me, that was it. It changed me. I long for a time that I could just meet someone and give them a shot before I shut them out. That time will come again. Through meetings and posting here, I feel I am slowly breaking through the wall.

granolaprincess

Hey there DesertEyes,

Couldn't pass up your post, I'm beginning to think we come from the same family -- I had a heckuva time putting the pedophile stuff in perspective about 15 years ago and thought I'd dealt with the brunt of it, boy was I wrong!! I'm going through the same thing you are with the intimacy issue. Actually, I'm finding out that my issue is that I tend to gravitate towards people who aren't capable of emotional intimacy, probably because my mom and dad weren't available and were self-absorbed in their own issues, so I never learned about true intimacy. If I didn't have a couple of friends who stuck with me while I tried to learn how to trust at least someone, I don't know where I'd be today. They used to laugh because I couldn't say "I love you" without breaking down like the Berlin Wall. It was terribly sad and horribly funny at the same time to see an adult who was afraid to hug a friend because she was afraid of getting burned (as if the friend was holding a torch or something!).

Anyway, the intimacy thing is eating at me lately too. I am starting to realize that the ex b.f. may be incapable of intimacy and that has been the icing on my cake for the week. Now I'm trying to figure out why I keep choosing these guys when they seem so totally healthy on the outside.

I did the same thing you did -- I looked at my family and said, "No way, not for me, you guys are crazy" and then went out and made many of the same mistakes they made, but in new and amazing ways, and made some new mistakes along the way as well. I am in awe of how blind we can be when we think we are so on top of things.

I have been told that I have great instincts, if only I could learn to trust them. How funny that a boss could pick up on that and I still think the only one I can trust is me, when the reality is that I don't trust myself otherwise I'd make healthy decisions sooner. I learned what I did from books and from watching others, I appreciate what you have gone through, and for most of my life I thought I was one of very few people who learned by emulation. I think that's something all ACAs have learned, I just haven't met too many who are willing to admit it. The only intimacy I know is the kind that isn't there, and I keep wondering why I feel like I'm missing something.

What I would like to know is, how do we envelop that aching, inner child, and welcome him/her with open arms and let that child know it's okay? I am trying to figure that out and would love to accept my inner child, hug her, and let her know that life isn't the nasty place we thought it would be. I think if we could trust ourselves to do that, then we could trust ourselves to be intimate on several levels and have the kinds of relationships we keep dreaming about with friends, partners, co-workers, and family (the 3 that aren't users, anyway).

Thoughts?

DesertEyes

Yo! Princess

[LOL] No kidding. Isn't it funny how similar all our stories are. The details are different, but the emotions are practically identical. I come from a huge family with uncles and aunts and cousins all over the place and more being discovered every day. My dad had a second wife for 20 years and nobody told me. I found out I have a step brother and two step sisters when my Dad passed away and I got a copy of the will. There isn't a single one of the whole bowl full of nuts that isn't addicted to something.

I had two very good shrinks, and spent two years in a 12 step program for Incest Survivors. Did me a world of good. All the _big_ issues are taken care of. But all the subtle ones keep popping up, like intimacy :-)

Same here. The only time there was any kind of physical contact in my family was when you were getting seriously hurt. Emotional contact was always abusive and degrading.

I don't know _how_ to hug. It's some kind of learned thing that people pick up as children. I learned all the subtle "body language" of violence. I can "smell" when somebody is angry, when they're even thinking of violence.

There's a similar "body language" for intimacy. There's a certain tension in the muscles around the shoulders, in the curve of the back, the tilt of the head and especially in the hands. If I _think_ about it, I can see it, I can even pose a model to show it. But the "alarm bells" of my childhood still ring loud at even the thought of being touched.

I've gotten a lot better over the years, I can hug back, sort of. I've seen it done a million times, but I can't quite get the hang of it, I'm still stiff and forced. I think it's just that I'm still a little gun-shy.

Way cool. Hang on to those friends, they're priceless.

Healthy? uh-huh. Sure ;-) What I've come to learn is that this whole "toxic family" thing is a disease of "perception". What's damaged and diseased is my ability to _perceive_ the world around me. It's like I have these purple glasses on my brain, and everything I see is colored by them. Including people. I use the word "healthy" too, but that's inside my head behind the purple glasses. Outside my head, in the real world, what I'm looking at is really "familiar".

Welcome to the club :-) I think it's a great asset. I've picked up all kinds of useful skills and knowledge that way. School was a breeze, when I applied myself to it. Not because I'm smart, but because I learned how to learn in an environment where not being a quick learner could get you killed.

One day at a time :-) Here's something I do that works for me, see what you think.

Imagine that you are at home, curled up with a good book, on a dark and stormy night (ok, so I'm a corny writer :-) and you hear a knocking on the door. Somebody has abandoned a battered, beaten child on your doorstep. You take in the child, feed it, bathe it, care for it's wounds. Imagine this child has the _same_ history as you. Same family, same insanity, same pain.

You can't abandon the child, she's far too terrified to be left alone. You must take her with you everywhere you go. She must be with you at your workplace, and you must find a way to get your daily work done, but also protect this child from all the trolls and beasts in the workplace. You must take the child along on errands, to see friends, must give her enough rest and lots of positive strokes.

The real clincher is that, when you're checking out a guy, you have to make sure that he is noble enough to respect this little girl, who has a history of abuse.

Whadya think?

Yup, me thinks you are absolutely right. We _can_ achieve that. All of us are on the road to recovery, and we are all achieving that at our own pace.

You got _three_ non-users in your family! Max jealousy. That's definite proof that you're not a relative LOL

Mike :-)

utopia

hmm, i think when you speak of respecting the little child with the history of abuse, its dangerous, for me anyway, easy to slip form respect to pity. i dont think if im bearing the cross of abuse surivivor that i should be treated especially? i want to be treated consistently by that guy much the same as if i wasnt an abuse victim.

about the inner child, i had to learn what childish things to let go of, and what to keep,

let go of fantasies of no pain , happy family and endless love in a rlsp

i still hold onto dreams, and splashing in puddles, dancing and singing in public, laughing at myself, being comfortable with who i am and not thinking how ill be judged on every action.

its important to let god be my spirtual mother and father, to let god care for me, to calm me with words i cant hear but feel
to soother my stress
to calm my anxiety
mmy earth parents cannot be with me forever but god can and so i feel protected, safe and have a growing faith in his will

with that faith my inner child can sleep and stop living in fear of demons both false and real.
toby

DesertEyes

Absolutely right. That's why it's important to identify as a "survivor", who is somebody that has endured, overcome and is growing. A "victim" is somebody who has been defeated.

I agree. A "cross" is something that a survivor has overcome and left behind. A victim still carries it around.

Survivors don't need to be treated "special". They do need to be treated with respect. I once dated a young lady who'd been severly beaten as a child and wound up in a wheelchair as a result. As she was working thru her issues with a therapist she had to deal with memories such as being locked up in a closet for days at a time. In the process of working thru that she needed to keep all the closet doors open in the small apartment we shared. It was a very small apartment, and keeping all the doors open while trying to get around in there was a real pain in the *(&(*&. I respected her emotional needs during her recovery, respected her waking up in the middle of the night with screaming nightmares, all the usual stuff a survior has to deal with. Not because she was "special", but because that was a part of her recovery.

The nightmares, the doors and many other things were her "cross". Little by little she overcame them and left them behind. Just like a person with a broken leg has to wear a cast for awhile, a survivor has to deal with bucketloads of chaotic emotions.

Last I heard she was working on her Ph.D. and doing just fine :-)

Whadya think?

Wow, that's a beautiful passage. Thank you for sharing that :-)

Mike :-)

utopia

interesting deserteyes what words mean to dif ppl

i see survivor as this pride i hadin overcoming the demons, i was so great because id survived, but instead of surviving i live bliss, instead of survival mode i am in comfortable and calm mode. bliss mode, decide between survival and bliss. being a 'survivor' brings up images of having beaten some war, alanon tells me life is not a grand war with many battles but that it simply is

i can choose to see it as a struggle,as i once did, or i can see it as a beautiful blessing that can be the real Heaveni once longed to be in.

i discard the survivor label and modestly dont neeto tell the world how much crap i overcame andi dont always want to be a survivor, a victim to me is going thru the motions of pity and pain, a survivor is lef there standing filled with arrogance at their greatness

i feel my HP and loved ones helped me survive it wasnt all on my own like some warrior. im not asurivivor anymore, i dont have to be!! and im not a victim

i simply am

peace out
toby

DesertEyes

Yes indeed. They say Australians and Americans are a people divided by a common language ;-)

Way cool. I agree completely with your point of view.

Yup, life is certainly that :-)

Mike :-)

granolaprincess

I'm thinking about what you said and I'm going to try thinking of carrying that little girl around. The last week has been eye opening and I've told myself that I deserve better than what I've accepted. I have lots of work to do!

Like utopia, I discarded the term victim long ago and sometimes even forget that I'm a survivor. At times like these I start feeling somewhere between a victim and survivor and not sure how to approach things. I'm mad because I have these issues to deal with, tell myself that life is never dull for me because of these things, and tell myself I have too much spirit to let it get me down. Sometimes though, like the last 16 months, I forget about the spirit and exude the victim.

I love how you guys put it -- I simply am. It feel very liberating as I say it out loud. I am listening to a book on tape called "How To Want What You Have." While it would have been very hard for me to accept a few years ago, it is much more sensical now. I am working to see what happened as circumstances, not anything personal. I was blamed all my life for everything that went wrong in my mom's life, and in mine (including some of the abuse). I knew everyone was wrong, but on some level I started to believe it. It is very weird to not take things personally, realize things aren't about me and that what happened was just a circumstance. It's hard, but it's working for me when I can get to that point.

As for the 3 relatives, well, I'm not sure they're blood related! )

Gabe

"To want what I have, to take what I'm given with grace...
For these things I pray..." ~ Don Henley

DesertEyes

Way cool! You go, girl!

yeah well the last 16 months are over. You're back on the road to recovery, nothing but good things for you from now on :-)

Yup, same here. That's the whole heart of the disease of ACA, that we believe the lies. That's also why it's so difficult to heal, we have to find the real truth about ourselves when we have nothing to start with. That's why meetings and working with others works so well, we can obtain our truths from others who are willing to share them.

[lmao] Love that attitude. You never know, could be that all us ACoA's on this forum are distant cousins from the same bizarre family ;-)

Mike :-)