What was recovery?...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Drink wasn't invented. It was discovered. Been around since the beginning and a problem since them. People even worshipped wine goddesses.
There was less of a problem with alcoholism/drunkenness in ancient times as punishment for drunkenness was extremely severe.
There was less of a problem with alcoholism/drunkenness in ancient times as punishment for drunkenness was extremely severe.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by dSober 
Lol, he did have some pretty out there ideas, so the story goes. 
And he stopped drinking before that started.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 132
Recovery was stopping drinking and doing what you were supposed to be doing, be responsible for life.
Same as now. Put down booze, pick up responsibility.
The steps are not new ideas. They are all over in history and spiritual writing, or even philosophy with no talk of spirit.
AA numbers them 1 to 12 and makes them modern. That's great.
I think in the long ago past many alcoholics died before they get as bad as these days. Froze to death or starved or commit crimes to get booze and the punishment was so harsh in those days. Hard to keep drinking when the hand was chopped off
Same as now. Put down booze, pick up responsibility.
The steps are not new ideas. They are all over in history and spiritual writing, or even philosophy with no talk of spirit.
AA numbers them 1 to 12 and makes them modern. That's great.
I think in the long ago past many alcoholics died before they get as bad as these days. Froze to death or starved or commit crimes to get booze and the punishment was so harsh in those days. Hard to keep drinking when the hand was chopped off
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by tomsteve
May seem to be out there"ideas" to you,but scientific proof he was pretty smart to build an arc as god told him.
And he stopped drinking before that started.
And he stopped drinking before that started.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Perception Is Reality
My take is that Stories like Irish Priest Matt Talbot - who worked 'The Steps' well before the 1930s - and the laudable Gent that Dee mentions are the tip of the proverbial Iceberg, Historically. You don't hear much from those of us who just up and quit, and we're tough to Statistically quantify. We're just 'out there', doing our Sober thing. I could not care less about what percentage of the Recovered Population we are. You don't go to a Mexican or Thai Restaurant to accurately quantify the percentage of Folks into bland Food. That would be Sampling Error. Just as it is Sampling Error to draw conclusions on us Self Recovered types based on anecdotes from Meetings. We're not at Meetings.
Many of these discussions remind me of the old 'Ford vs. Chevy' arguments in High School where one Faction tries to bolster their POV with Stats or anecdotal observations. For me, 'my way', with SR at hand daily after a few months of having quit, was thee way to go. And, I just bought a new Ford - not Chevy - Truck. So, there you go. To cite my AA-like Specs, Ford is the best selling Truck over the past several Decades. To a Chevy or Dodge Guy, these are irrelevant Stats.
I give/receive support from a couple of now-Sober Gents at the local Dog Park. I'm on the move, and am not much a 'Meeting' Guy. So, I'm not in Meetings to be counted. Nor are my Pals.
I don't confuse AA formalizing/promoting the Recovery Process with the Recovery Process. There were Hamburgers before 'McDonalds', too. As noted above in this Thread, and in my one-off Case, Folks been quitting and recovering 'fo evah'. If you need others, seek others. If you don't, then don't. 'I say Tomato', as the old Song goes. A lot of what I read is simply Folks projecting what they need onto what everyone must need. Ummmm, actually, no.
I got way into Scottish History, and Distillery History, in our Travels there. One Book reproduced Distillery Records and Transactions. Neat old stuff. The Men digging Peat 'Slabs' out of the Bogs in truly lousy Weather - used to fuel Fires to dry Grain - got this unbelievable daily 'Ration' of Single Malt. Whisky today is typically watered down with Spring Water to 80 Proof. Back then, it was all Cask Strength ~105 Proof [and higher]. For fun, I converted their 'old' Drams to current Units-of-Measure. I had to recheck my Math; I couldn't believe my results.
Men were given something like 8 U.S. Ounces of 105 Proof Whiskey at Lunch, and the same at days-end. This is from memory; this Book is in storage. That's >20 Ounces daily of 80 Proof Whisky while you dig out Peat for a living. Yowzah! Meanwhile. a Retired Distillery Tour Guide told me he'd never drank in his 30+ years of Distillery Work, and didn't drink now in Retirement. From his appearance and demeanor, I believed him.
There's 'You Tube' Videos of African Animals appearing hammered on fermented Fruit. Whether those Videos are accurate or not, I'm confident our Prehistoric Ancestors figgered it all out, right along with starting Fire. Some aged and quit on their own; just as some percentage of us still do.
I think my consumption of a 1.75 'Handle' of Vodka every ~2 days qualifies me as an Alcoholic/Addict. I simply giggle when Folks try to 'spin' the definition of 'real' Alcoholics to exclude us Self Recovered Folks; simply because we're at odds with their desired World View.
Recovery is what each of us think it is. It's not for some Organization to define, unless you think that appropriate.
Many of these discussions remind me of the old 'Ford vs. Chevy' arguments in High School where one Faction tries to bolster their POV with Stats or anecdotal observations. For me, 'my way', with SR at hand daily after a few months of having quit, was thee way to go. And, I just bought a new Ford - not Chevy - Truck. So, there you go. To cite my AA-like Specs, Ford is the best selling Truck over the past several Decades. To a Chevy or Dodge Guy, these are irrelevant Stats.
I give/receive support from a couple of now-Sober Gents at the local Dog Park. I'm on the move, and am not much a 'Meeting' Guy. So, I'm not in Meetings to be counted. Nor are my Pals.
I don't confuse AA formalizing/promoting the Recovery Process with the Recovery Process. There were Hamburgers before 'McDonalds', too. As noted above in this Thread, and in my one-off Case, Folks been quitting and recovering 'fo evah'. If you need others, seek others. If you don't, then don't. 'I say Tomato', as the old Song goes. A lot of what I read is simply Folks projecting what they need onto what everyone must need. Ummmm, actually, no.
I got way into Scottish History, and Distillery History, in our Travels there. One Book reproduced Distillery Records and Transactions. Neat old stuff. The Men digging Peat 'Slabs' out of the Bogs in truly lousy Weather - used to fuel Fires to dry Grain - got this unbelievable daily 'Ration' of Single Malt. Whisky today is typically watered down with Spring Water to 80 Proof. Back then, it was all Cask Strength ~105 Proof [and higher]. For fun, I converted their 'old' Drams to current Units-of-Measure. I had to recheck my Math; I couldn't believe my results.
Men were given something like 8 U.S. Ounces of 105 Proof Whiskey at Lunch, and the same at days-end. This is from memory; this Book is in storage. That's >20 Ounces daily of 80 Proof Whisky while you dig out Peat for a living. Yowzah! Meanwhile. a Retired Distillery Tour Guide told me he'd never drank in his 30+ years of Distillery Work, and didn't drink now in Retirement. From his appearance and demeanor, I believed him.
There's 'You Tube' Videos of African Animals appearing hammered on fermented Fruit. Whether those Videos are accurate or not, I'm confident our Prehistoric Ancestors figgered it all out, right along with starting Fire. Some aged and quit on their own; just as some percentage of us still do.
I think my consumption of a 1.75 'Handle' of Vodka every ~2 days qualifies me as an Alcoholic/Addict. I simply giggle when Folks try to 'spin' the definition of 'real' Alcoholics to exclude us Self Recovered Folks; simply because we're at odds with their desired World View.
Recovery is what each of us think it is. It's not for some Organization to define, unless you think that appropriate.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 13
from oxford dictionaries online:
"1. A return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength
2. The action or process of regaining possession or control of something stolen or lost"
Hoping this doesn't seem pedantic but recovery is (and was) one or both of those two things. How it is achieved, how much or how little is involved in achieving it and whatever layers of deeper meaning attributed by the person going through that process are all personal. We can see that there are many similarities in our individual "recoveries" but there are also many differences. Over-generalization, "limiting beliefs" and assigning absolutes to the process of addiction and recovery are not particularly useful in my opinion. What are the simplest and most precise terms we can use to describe this process of "recovery" as it applies to addiction? Honestly, I think the dictionary definition is good enough. So what is the process?
For many it is more than just drinking vs. not drinking or using drugs vs. not using drugs. Substitute whatever addictive behaviour you wish, but here is where our paths diverge. Something else was lost somewhere along the way. What was it? When did it happen? It probably wasn't just one thing either. It is likely some of this "loss" occurred before the primary addiction even began. The addiction probably caused even more to be lost along the way. Of course there are differences in our similarities and similarities in our differences yet still we are not all the same. The process of recovery is as rich and varied as we are. To say we are all the same is to deny the amazing beauty of who we are.
"1. A return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength
2. The action or process of regaining possession or control of something stolen or lost"
Hoping this doesn't seem pedantic but recovery is (and was) one or both of those two things. How it is achieved, how much or how little is involved in achieving it and whatever layers of deeper meaning attributed by the person going through that process are all personal. We can see that there are many similarities in our individual "recoveries" but there are also many differences. Over-generalization, "limiting beliefs" and assigning absolutes to the process of addiction and recovery are not particularly useful in my opinion. What are the simplest and most precise terms we can use to describe this process of "recovery" as it applies to addiction? Honestly, I think the dictionary definition is good enough. So what is the process?
For many it is more than just drinking vs. not drinking or using drugs vs. not using drugs. Substitute whatever addictive behaviour you wish, but here is where our paths diverge. Something else was lost somewhere along the way. What was it? When did it happen? It probably wasn't just one thing either. It is likely some of this "loss" occurred before the primary addiction even began. The addiction probably caused even more to be lost along the way. Of course there are differences in our similarities and similarities in our differences yet still we are not all the same. The process of recovery is as rich and varied as we are. To say we are all the same is to deny the amazing beauty of who we are.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted by AncientHighway
For many it is more than just drinking vs. not drinking or using drugs vs. not using drugs.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted by AncientHighway
were you to take that poll I'd guess it would likely be even more than "most"
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I did a poll and among those that were surveyed and then responded, it was shown that most stopped drinking first, then began to recover the lives they had lost and lost control of while drinking.
A significant number recovered a sense of joy and beauty, a large fraction recovered a closer relationship with loved ones, and a major proportion recovered the tools of mental hygiene that are common in the general population, when compared with an earlier survey of those who were not self-identified as alcoholics.
Removing alcohol was the first and crucial step for the overwhelming majority of those who were surveyed and then responded. Most reported that nothing good can happen while drinking continues.
A significant number recovered a sense of joy and beauty, a large fraction recovered a closer relationship with loved ones, and a major proportion recovered the tools of mental hygiene that are common in the general population, when compared with an earlier survey of those who were not self-identified as alcoholics.
Removing alcohol was the first and crucial step for the overwhelming majority of those who were surveyed and then responded. Most reported that nothing good can happen while drinking continues.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
"I like whiskey. I always did, and that is why I never drink it." -Robert E. Lee
I like this 19th century quote because it demonstrates a relatively nonjudgmental, nonreligious perspective about liking alcohol but recognizing its dangers. It may not say anything about recovery, but it reveals a man who drank and quit perhaps to avoid the consequences of continuing to drink.
I like this 19th century quote because it demonstrates a relatively nonjudgmental, nonreligious perspective about liking alcohol but recognizing its dangers. It may not say anything about recovery, but it reveals a man who drank and quit perhaps to avoid the consequences of continuing to drink.
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