What was recovery?...
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Ullyses S Grant Martin Van Buren and James Buchanan are three presidents over 100 years ago that drank to absurd amounts all through their presidency.
don't know if any of them ever quit but none of them were ever tried for impeachment
don't know if any of them ever quit but none of them were ever tried for impeachment
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as i said i am no history buff
i wonder when drink was first invented it ? someone somewhere invented the stuff how on earth did is spread around the world ?
wine seemed to be the drink of the day and treading grapes was how they got it is about all the knowledge i have about were drink came from
it is true i think that the problem with booze is more a moden era thing in terms of addictions and how we lived in the past to the fast lane living in todays world is but there still must of been alcoholics in my mind right from day one
just like there must of been people allergic to nuts or dairy products from day one
and as they wouldnt know they were allergic to the nuts or dairy products like milk i dare say they would of had to suffer with it and or die from it as there was no knoweldge around of there condition
but it certainly makes me think just how long back was a booze a problem for people has it always been there or is it just a modern day illness ?
i wonder when drink was first invented it ? someone somewhere invented the stuff how on earth did is spread around the world ?
wine seemed to be the drink of the day and treading grapes was how they got it is about all the knowledge i have about were drink came from
it is true i think that the problem with booze is more a moden era thing in terms of addictions and how we lived in the past to the fast lane living in todays world is but there still must of been alcoholics in my mind right from day one
just like there must of been people allergic to nuts or dairy products from day one
and as they wouldnt know they were allergic to the nuts or dairy products like milk i dare say they would of had to suffer with it and or die from it as there was no knoweldge around of there condition
but it certainly makes me think just how long back was a booze a problem for people has it always been there or is it just a modern day illness ?
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desypete, folks aren't born knowing things about history. They are curious, and they go and look for answers, and find out. You don't need to show your history buff secret membership club card to ask questions and look for answers.
You can start by typing a question into the google search bar, as good a way as any to begin to satisfy your curiosity.
You can start by typing a question into the google search bar, as good a way as any to begin to satisfy your curiosity.
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Originally Posted by desypete 
i wonder when drink was first invented ?
"Alcoholic beverages have been produced and consumed by humans since the Neolithic Era, from hunter-gatherer peoples to nation-states."
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Well, to get things back where I kinda hoped this might go, perhaps a revisit to this might be in order...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-mccarthy.html
Temperance seems to be everyone telling drunks not to drink. Recovery seems to be drunks telling each other, and themselves, not to drink... and showing them how.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-mccarthy.html
Temperance seems to be everyone telling drunks not to drink. Recovery seems to be drunks telling each other, and themselves, not to drink... and showing them how.
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With that distinction now made clear, is the reasoning behind your first post is that noone really recovered before AA Doug?
D
.. prior to publication of "Alcoholics Anonymous" in 1939. To keep things simpler, let's make that prior to the Oxford group(s). Anybody know? Was it just every man for his/herself?
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There were & still are, organisations, that promote something more than a cessation of drinking.
A lot of individual AA groups don't promote or suggest anything else is required other than cessation.
I guess it boils down to individual people deciding for themselves whether a minimalist approach is sufficient or whether they decide to seek more than cessation.
Hence suggestive steps.
A lot of individual AA groups don't promote or suggest anything else is required other than cessation.
I guess it boils down to individual people deciding for themselves whether a minimalist approach is sufficient or whether they decide to seek more than cessation.
Hence suggestive steps.
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Originally Posted by Dee74
With that distinction now made clear, is the reasoning behind your first post is that noone really recovered before AA Doug?
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Originally Posted by Hawks
A lot of individual AA groups don't promote or suggest anything else is required other than cessation.
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As most of my OPs are Dee, it was a question to promote open discussion and learning.
Well, to get things back where I kinda hoped this might go, perhaps a revisit to this might be in order...
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Drunks By Jack McCarthy)
Temperance seems to be everyone telling drunks not to drink. Recovery seems to be drunks telling each other, and themselves, not to drink... and showing them how.
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Drunks By Jack McCarthy)
Temperance seems to be everyone telling drunks not to drink. Recovery seems to be drunks telling each other, and themselves, not to drink... and showing them how.
LOL I just wanted to know what your thesis was D - if you haven't got one, no worries - my mistake
D
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Lol, good catch Dee. Yeah, I kinda hoped the discussion would go there and I'm not above nudging when it seems appropriate.
You know my overall 12 step thesis me thinks.
Yeah, I kinda hoped the discussion would go there and I'm not above nudging when it seems appropriate.You know my overall 12 step thesis me thinks.
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Just to clarify a bit further, I suspect drunkards have been around as long as alcohol. I believe some of them were able to recover. To me, like most things, it's a matter of numbers. I suspect the percentage of drunkards who were able to recover increased, probably fairly dramatically, shortly after the publication of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939. It has certainly developed into a very widespread and popular movement helping people with addictions and obsessions of many kinds pretty much worldwide.
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Originally Posted by dSober
Just to clarify a bit further, I suspect drunkards have been around as long as alcohol. I believe some of them were able to recover. To me, like most things, it's a matter of numbers. I suspect the percentage of drunkards who were able to recover increased, probably fairly dramatically, shortly after the publication of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939.
I am pretty clear on your thesis. It has no basis in fact.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/41/7/794/
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
What is the basis of your statement? A percentage is not a feeling or a suspicion, it's a number. Why do you believe it changed, dramatically or otherwise? Do you have any evidence at all?
I am pretty clear on your thesis. It has no basis in fact.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/41/7/794/
I am pretty clear on your thesis. It has no basis in fact.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/41/7/794/
Regarding numbers, I see dozens of people at almost every meeting I attend and there are dozens of meetings within 30 mins. of me. Millions of copies of the Big Book have been printed and sold (I paid $7 each for my hard cover copies about 5 years ago). Coincidence or PT Barnum effect you feel? No profit involved in AA so I guess that can't be it. Something else maybe?
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