LiveInPeace

That is very well said. And most important I think is the reminder that I must change, not them.

This is very freeing. I can't change them, so I focus on me.

Thank you for pointing this out. I guess it's a choice that I have let them affect my peace of mind. Interesting.

Very good point indeed. And it makes me think twice about one particular amends I was afraid to do in person. It'd be a good test for me to not let her actions and behavior get to me. I need to step it up and learn how to handle these sort of situations, instead of staying away from them. But I can also know that I can leave a situation if it becomes intolerable.

Thanks, Stevie!

LiveInPeace

I think that's key. Thank you.

stevieg46

Hi Live in Peace .

Nearly every suggestion I passed on to you is '' secondhand '' it was passed on to me , and me to others and ,it came from sponsors and members who took the program very seriously .

If you feel it helps , then it only came from you heeding and acting on advice given from others , you '' shared '' it and a problem ''shared '' is a problem halved , sometimes people say '' this too shall pass '' sometimes it passes a lot quicker ''if we give it a push '' .

It is a lot better to live with the'' answer'' than live with the ''problem'' take care .

Regards .

Stevie

WMJ1012

Yes. It depends on the situation and relationship.

This is where I have to be sure I'm not making amend just to relieve myself of guilt or shame for my part in the relationship. It has to be based in spiritual principles. I have to really want to give the other person back what I took from them, but it has to come from my heart because it's right, not because I want them to stop hurting me etc.

Ex: I've talked to a few of you about this before...at my fifth step I got involved with a guy who was very unsafe and put myself in a very questionable situation by doing so. I ended up character assassinated hen it was over and to relieve myself of fear - and needless shame, I called him and apologized for my part.

Well first of all, he was spiritually deaf so all he heard was that he was justified in his abuse and he ran with that in self-righteousness knowing I felt guilty and afraid. His abuse got much worse. It did not work out well at all for me.

I always suggest that people take a good look at the situation and get your guilt out of the way before taking action if you think the person will use your amends to cause you further harm.

LiveInPeace

Thank you, Stevie.

LiveInPeace

What I took from one of my family members was her time and maybe her peace of mind because I leaned on her to help me fix my problems, because that was her family role. Although part of me sees now that she enjoys being in that family role--it boosts her ego. Still, I'm sure I caused her stress and so she's deserved some kind of amends I think. But I'm just not sure if a face to face would be safe right now. She hasn't hurt me over that; it's hard to explain. A living amends might be best in this case.

I do remember your posting about this situation before. It's awful that it happened, and that he used your amends against you. And yes that is key, "if you think the person will use your amends to cause you further harm". That's exactly what I have to think/pray on.

I'm not sure how common this is or not, but my home group has us do 5th steps with a person of the same gender. It's also strongly encouraged that your sponsor be of the same gender.

Gottalife

A funny thing about the fifth steps. Nowhere in the big book does it say it should be done with an AA member. The Little Red Book, written in 1946 goes even further and says it should be done with anyone other than an AA member.

There is no training, no suggestion in the big book about how to hear a fifth step. Yet it is a great responsibility as inapprpriate reactions of the listener can do an incredible amount of harm.

For those I sponsor, I always suggest a priest or minister for their fifth, as these folks are trained to hear it. I don't need to hear it to know they have done it. There is nothing more obvious than an alcoholic who has just taken their fifth, they positively glow.

I had an interesting experience last year, working with three guys doing the "Back to basics" group. Two went to priests for their fifth and came back delighted. The third went to his sponsor in another fellowship and got ripped apart. he came back totally discouraged, in a worse state than where he started. "We think well before we chose who is to hear our story" the book says. Good advice.

LiveInPeace

I've heard about The Little Red Book. What is it, exactly, and which AA programs follow it?

I agree with you there. I've heard stories of where sponsors reacted very inappropriately to people's 5th Steps. I also had a sponsor tell me I should make amends to a certain family member, and when I told her my therapist strongly disagreed with her, well, it didn't go so well.

That's a good point. The big book mentions that, too, but I think it's assumed we'd read it to our sponsor? My opinion is that if you have a sponsor who worked the steps as they are written in the big book, then they should be healthy enough to hear a 5th step. My sponsor was the one who actually pointed out to me that my sister (person I mentioned above) was a bully. I never thought of her that way, but it does sort of sums things up, without her having a degree in psychology. She also helped me have compassion for the other family member I mentioned, although she said I don't owe her any amends.

I was fortunate enough to have that "fifth step glow". I felt very clear headed afterward, too, although exhausted.

I am sorry that third guy had a bad experience. I hope he has taken his 5th step to someone else.

Thanks, Mike.

WMJ1012

When the BB was written it was written to reach everyone in every pocket of the world and the fellowship itself was tiny. So there weren't sponsors available to hear 5th steps in most places back then. That's why it validates that we can go to clergy or others.
But I think we can all see that while the program remains the same forever because the disease has never changed, there are a lot of experienced people in AA today who know our thinking and perhaps know us (our sponsors), so thank goodness we can really benefit from taking our written inventory to them.

I know a lot of BB people who've chosen a different sponsor to read it to and I think that can be a good idea in some instances such as people moving, or the benefit of another viewpoint or someone more experienced than the sponsor they wrote with.

There are guidelines for hearing a fifth in the BB. The most important of which is that we "go in for a long chat" and we "discuss" this stuff with them. This implies there will be feedback. In my area at the time I did my fifth most sponsor just listened but that has changed as we've grown as a fellowship.

Just today I was thinking of how much AA has grown in the last 4 years.

LiveInPeace

It's interesting to read a little more history behind it.

That's sort of what I felt--my sponsor knew about my thinking and actions so why not have her hear my 5th step.

Some popular AA speakers on the internet talk about doing this, and they say they get a lot out of it. I think it's an interesting idea to get different perspectives, or to get something someone else missed.

How has your fellowship changed in that respect? I just read my inventory, but I can see how a discussion would be helpful to hear what she saw, and what I still couldn't see.