ZetaP38

I came into AA and sobriety as an agnostic. It was unthinkable, to me, to adopt a generic, invisible HP. When they told me that my HP could be "Group of (ex)Drunks", it worked for me - because I sure trusted that those who got me sober, would continue to help me remain that way by the awesome sharing of all their tools and wisdom from experience.

However, I was also aware that AAers were not ultimate HP that Bill W. was pointing me toward: the Great Reality Within.

Since you have the awareness to ask this question, you may be able to pick up on particular phrasing in the BB and 12 Steps of the 12x12. Phrasing that refers to 'making conscious contact' or 'gaining access to' or 'inflowing of' ... a Power greater than ourselves. And where early AAers found It, for themselves, within the Process of AA. This also became my experience.

"And when humility and serenity are so combined,
something else of great moment is apt to occur."

"Don't drink and don't give up. Pay attention. You'll see."

PJ

"AA was never about not drinking; that's just what I had to do to discover what AA was really about."

Beeraholic

I am very much atheist. And I have to admit that the religious aspects of AA have kept me away from meetings. I wish there was a version without this faith element. I think AA would be helpful.

Maybe it just means I'm not strong enough to ignore this part of aa

Dee74

check out this forum beeraholic

Secular 12 Step Recovery - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

D

sugarbear1

I didn't really believe in anything until I got past step 7. That is when something happened and step 2 became "alive" for me.

Willingness to believe, willingness to set aside old beliefs or willingness to stop arguing there isn't a higher power helps immensely.

Everyone is different!

benice

I love this thread and the honesty of the replies. I was brought up in a religious environment, but just started to separate religion and spirituality. It is semantics, but very important. Turns out I am actually more spiritual than religious!

I recommend reading, "The Spirituality of Imperfection."

blueberry2015

Thanks for this post the "god" thing makes me a lil anxious about AA like you im a spiritualist... im going on the mindset to adapt the principles to my own beliefs. Meditation for me would work better than prayer I think. Still i'll give it a crack.

KAD

You're exactly where I am and stumbling over the same questions, doubts, disbelief, etc. It's why my sponsor has recommended rereading "We Agnostics" in the BB. I remember one part in particular, having called myself an atheist for many years, that said something along the lines of "Who am I to say there is no God?" That question was when I crossed over from atheist to agnostic.

I just spent 65 days in a faith-based program with the express intention of answering some of my questions and removing those nagging doubts. I regret to say it didn't succeed in doing that, but I did learn a lot from talking to other addicts and learning some encouraging words from that other Big Book, the Bible. It is a struggle, though, because faith in a Higher Power is pretty much the cornerstone of the steps, and when the cornerstone is missing, or weak, the whole thing crumbles.

So, I'm with you on this. We can figure it out together!

Rio97

I heard a guy share in an AA meeting the other day that he undoubtedly believes in God. But he said for the first 2 years of his sobriety, he didn't and used the group. God, he said, was revealed to him later. As an agnostic myself, this is encouraging and I plan to use the group and a sponsor. You have to admit that the collective knowledge of the group is more powerful than any 1 person.

I don't think it's abnormal at all that many of us, after years of drinking, question the idea of God. My biggest issue is those that do believe and insist they're right, and if you don't, you're wrong.

Fly N Buy

When I came into AA I suppose I would have identified as a wanna be agnostic. I preferred in all things to go against the grain - rules, people etc. I was a misanthropic individual.

I had in all things what the book describes so well - Contempt prior to investigation.

I was just desperate enough however to open my heart and head to the possibility. That has indeed made all the difference. The beauty of sobriety is we don't have to figure everything out before we do it!

I tried that many entire life and missed many untold opportunities. Today part of my willingness to change is the exploration of all good things this world has to offer - people I would have shunned, places I never would have gone and things I never would have done.

The sunshine of the spirit is bright - I can see clearly now the rain is gone!!

ZetaP38

Prior to AA, I considered myself an atheist for 25 years. It was in AA that I came to understand that I most assuredly didn't believe in "no God", but that I had turned my back on/rejected a God I felt was too twisted for words. That whatever "good" was in the world, didn't begin to make up for all the suffering and insanity; that the God of the Old Testament was alive and well in the world. I could see no reconciling of "God is Love (period)" and the punishing God. So, I was agnostic.

Getting clear on this, helped...a lot. Because if I had turned my back the 'wrong God', it left a window open to let in the 'Right God'. Bill W. had found something I had never known before, and I knew that through experience of being transformed, from the inside-out, by applying spiritual principles.

"What if...." became a powerful tool. That is what the active expression of "suspending disbelief" looks like, for me. The crowbar that loosened/loosens resistance to trying a mind tool that may look quite dubious, at first.

Trudging the path of AA, I could sometimes catch 'synchronicities', hear the very thing I needed in the moment I needed it - or have something someone had said (that I thought was dumb) be replayed back in just the right moment where it made total sense and lifted me out of another mind-loop. Something was helping me, and providing opportunities for me to grow.

The closest I came to prayer about six months into recovery was, (said to the Power of AA, whatever that might be), "Show me what you want me to work on today. I'm willing." Because I'd sure grown weary of planning perfect days and saintly attitudes - only to have things go terribly awry.

When I had come to accept, through testing the principle, that every reaction was an onion to peel -Awareness was only too happy to show me just how many onions I'd been blind to. On avalanche days, I'd find the courage and willingness to pick one to peel, as much as I could. And sometimes peeling one thoroughly....unraveled a few at one time. "Yowzer!" (as Mark used to say.)

AA fascinated me then, and the Process fascinates me more today. The difference today, and from the time I met the Great Reality within in the 5th Step (where the BB says it can be found) - is that I Know the source of S&H in ES&H, who was working through others from the first day I crossed the threshold into AA.

"Awareness is the answer...willingness to see, the key."

"Don't give up five minutes before the next miracle happens.'

Trust the Process. It works in amazing ways.

Best to All,

Pamela

zerothehero

Check out Refuge Recovery. It is non-theistic, based on Buddhist philosophy.

Soberwolf

i have faith i also love science ive read nearly every richard dawkins book hes written ive also read just as much spirtual books

the way i see it is that richard dawkins and a few other well known atheists do not claim 100% because they dont know for sure thier faith is science factual evidence etc but its not all there to support it..... yet as dawkins would say

Sometimes i think about this world then i think about the galaxies and finally the universe itself ppl are looking for life on other planets when the real miracle is us this earth we have built in human behavior that is unlike any other we are diffrent from the rest (not a good thing imo)

faith for me is beautiful i wasnt brought up in a religious family and i have no religion but i have faith

i get tired of religious & non religious ppl arguing over this and to me it blurs the lines of what faith actually is

excellent thread btw

sugarbear1

my only prayer is "Inspire me to be useful to others"

seems to work well for me

ClosetCinephile

Hi everyone,

I want to thank you all for the honesty - and openness - in your responses. There is a theme I see throughout the responses, and that theme is trust. In general, I have a hard time trusting people. If you asked me, point blank "do you have trust in others," undoubtedly I'd say yes.

But the truth is the trust in others (and myself) is lacking. I actually just came from a Big Book Study, and we were reading the tail end of "How It Works." Coincidence? Listening to people talk about their higher powers, the fourth step, etc. was very helpful.

To answer one question from the thread, I've spoken about this with my sponsor at length, as well as a bringing it up as a topic at an open discussion meeting.

My sponsor pushes me to do 5 things daily:

1) Pray upon waking
2) Read the literature (BB,DR,12+12)
3) Go to a meeting, or more than one, if possible.
4) Call him (or another alcoholic) at least once daily.
5) Pray throughout day, before bed.

I tend to get these convoluted, or make them difficult, etc. simply b/c sticking to a regimen is new to me.

I liken how I felt a few weeks ago as to sticking one toe in the water, and perhaps now I'm at two or three.

Again, I appreciate all the responses, and any to come in the next few days.

All best,

CC

wpainterw

Here, in the Western World we are used to talking about God. It is not always so in the far East. There one may find great spirituality in certain forms of Buddhism (the Dalai Lama does not dwell on the God concept and at times has humorously referred to himself as an atheist.(He has a great sense of humor)). And the Tao Te Ching, about 2500 years old now, eloquently refers to the "Eternal Tao" not that which can be written or spoken. Yet it is like a hidden river, the source and support of all, and awareness of it leads to wisdom and happiness. Perhaps the true meaning of "Higher Power" is that sobriety can come from awareness that one may not be able to do it alone, that one needs help from someone or something "other". For many alcoholics, such help has come from other recovering alcoholics, hearing their story, their hopes, reaching out to them and giving them too a helping hand.

W.

tomsteve

Good on ya!! it's a simple program for complicated thinkers. That rang very true for me.
Reads like ya gotta good sponsor.
I came
I came to
I came to believe
I came to have faith
I came to trust
By working the steps and practicing the principles.

So, I used to go to this circus a lot. There was a high wire act. Guy pushed a wheel barrow across the wire. Saw Him do it so many times I had faith he could do it.
If I trusted him I'd get in the wheel barrow.
And when I'm in the wheel barrow try to not rock it.