Forced to Drink - Apparently It's a Thing
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
The only cure for addiction is abstinence no matter what method one chooses to use one has to quit to succeed. Any other problems one may have are separate issues and sobriety cannot be contingent on whether they get addressed or resolved. Quitting has to stand on it's own and any ideas otherwise are AV. XYZ has to happen for me to stay quit is AV. That's where mainstream recovery programs are failing people.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
I don't know. AV or not, I don't believe sobriety can be artificially separated from other issues. This would be a holistic view (whole). One example is long before I was permanently sober, I used to quit drinking temporarily when I got overweight. The only way I could lose weight was to quit drinking because my carb cravings were a direct result of hangovers, plus the calories in booze. We are systems, and each behavior, and each substance (including food and water) we put in our systems effect the system. There's no separating anything from everything else.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
If I had to wait until all the physical and emotional and environmental symptoms of my drinking were fixed for me to achieve perfect abstinence I would end up drinking until the day I died. I have to be able to draw a line in the sand and quit with the mindset that nothing external or internal in my existence can happen that will cause me to pick a drink up and bring to my mouth and swallow it. The drinking is over and whatever got me to this point or whatever the future has in store for me can have no effect on my decision to quit for good. That's how it is for me anyway and it has to be because as long as I entertain ideas otherwise my AV will use that against me, eating away in my mind like a little worm until IT's found a way to convince me that drinking again would be a good idea.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Originally Posted by zerothehero 
I don't know. AV or not, I don't believe sobriety can be artificially separated from other issues. This would be a holistic view (whole). One example is long before I was permanently sober, I used to quit drinking temporarily when I got overweight. The only way I could lose weight was to quit drinking because my carb cravings were a direct result of hangovers, plus the calories in booze. We are systems, and each behavior, and each substance (including food and water) we put in our systems effect the system. There's no separating anything from everything else.
One can separate out and stop the action of putting intoxicants into their bodies. Sobriety is the result of not doing certain things. A lot of mainstream recovery is based on the idea of 'doing' 'sobriety' while at the same time allowing, excusing , pushing off the stopping of intoxicants until such time as one is equipt to be sober. aka AV ( any doubt that permanent abstinence is achievable).
A lot of mainstream recovery is centered also on the idea that in order to abstain one must no longer have any residual desire for intoxication, that quitting won't 'manifest' until desire has been eliminated, which imo, is one of if not the largest failing , and also AV writ large.
Teetotalers from birth don't 'do' sobriety, they don't drink. Former drunks aka born again teetotalers, quitters, don't drink, too.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
Originally Posted by dwtbd
That perspective though only works if you view sobriety as thing. When in reality the abstraction sobriety denotes an absence of a 'thing', a lack of drinking/drugging.
One can separate out and stop the action of putting intoxicants into their bodies. Sobriety is the result of not doing certain things. A lot of mainstream recovery is based on the idea of 'doing' 'sobriety' while at the same time allowing, excusing , pushing off the stopping of intoxicants until such time as one is equipt to be sober. aka AV ( any doubt that permanent abstinence is achievable).
A lot of mainstream recovery is centered also on the idea that in order to abstain one must no longer have any residual desire for intoxication, that quitting won't 'manifest' until desire has been eliminated, which imo, is one of if not the largest failing , and also AV writ large.
Teetotalers from birth don't 'do' sobriety, they don't drink. Former drunks aka born again teetotalers, quitters, don't drink, too.
One can separate out and stop the action of putting intoxicants into their bodies. Sobriety is the result of not doing certain things. A lot of mainstream recovery is based on the idea of 'doing' 'sobriety' while at the same time allowing, excusing , pushing off the stopping of intoxicants until such time as one is equipt to be sober. aka AV ( any doubt that permanent abstinence is achievable).
A lot of mainstream recovery is centered also on the idea that in order to abstain one must no longer have any residual desire for intoxication, that quitting won't 'manifest' until desire has been eliminated, which imo, is one of if not the largest failing , and also AV writ large.
Teetotalers from birth don't 'do' sobriety, they don't drink. Former drunks aka born again teetotalers, quitters, don't drink, too.
Absolutely! Well said.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by dwtbd
A lot of mainstream recovery is centered also on the idea that in order to abstain one must no longer have any residual desire for intoxication, that quitting won't 'manifest' until desire has been eliminated, which imo, is one of if not the largest failing , and also AV writ large.
The idea that I had to fix any underlying desire to drink was in hindsight just another excuse to keep drinking, and it kept me drinking longer than I might otherwise have drunk.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
I would agree that waiting till underlying causes to be fixed would not work for me. In all my treatment center visits never even once did anyone suggest that I should wait till I was better or situations were different to get sober (one phsyciatrist told me he didn't think I could go through detox and quit at that particular time).
I always think of it as "my alchoholism will use anything to get me to drink" ... so that is something I need to have a clear understanding of.
I always think of it as "my alchoholism will use anything to get me to drink" ... so that is something I need to have a clear understanding of.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Interesting perspectives. I understand the concern that attaching continued sobriety to "working on oneself" could increase the risk of relapse, but I don't see it that way. I am committed to sobriety whether I take other measures to improve my well being or not. Choosing not to look away when unwelcome memories, for example, enter my mind stream does not seem like a healthy option, so I'm working with those memories. Period. I don't base my confidence in continued sobriety (the simple behavior of choosing not to drink or drug) on whether or not I choose to explore or suppress challenging thoughts or emotions.
To me, choosing not to drink also means choosing to deal directly with challenging thoughts and emotions without alcohol. Choosing not to drink means choosing not to numb in other ways (sugar, food, porn, TV...), as well. Confidence in my sobriety is supported by my ability to watch the mind stream with curiosity and acceptance; to not look away in horror or disgust when a flash image of being sexually abused or pushed down the stairs enters my consciousness. It was the inability to observe those challenging memories or to accept challenging thoughts and emotions that fueled my drinking. Of that I have no doubt.
So, yes, I have committed to never drinking again regardless of how I feel or what I think or what I remember or whether or not I am flooded with self-loathing or shame or resentment or disappointment, or excitement or enthusiasm, for that matter. If that's the AV talking, then I've befriended the AV, just like I'm still friends with certain people who drink and use other drugs. Neither the AV or those friends will convince me to shift my resolve. I am not afraid of the AV. My commitment to sobriety no longer has anything to do with fear; it has to do with the kind of life I want to live.
To be fair, this is the perspective of someone who has been sober since 2013. I did not feel that way at four months. At that time I was terrified. People's needs and perspectives evolve with time away from alcohol and other drugs. At four months all I could muster was a commitment to sobriety. Now, approaching four years I have additional commitments, including being as present as possible with myself and others, and that means tuning in to my external and internal environment.
To me, choosing not to drink also means choosing to deal directly with challenging thoughts and emotions without alcohol. Choosing not to drink means choosing not to numb in other ways (sugar, food, porn, TV...), as well. Confidence in my sobriety is supported by my ability to watch the mind stream with curiosity and acceptance; to not look away in horror or disgust when a flash image of being sexually abused or pushed down the stairs enters my consciousness. It was the inability to observe those challenging memories or to accept challenging thoughts and emotions that fueled my drinking. Of that I have no doubt.
So, yes, I have committed to never drinking again regardless of how I feel or what I think or what I remember or whether or not I am flooded with self-loathing or shame or resentment or disappointment, or excitement or enthusiasm, for that matter. If that's the AV talking, then I've befriended the AV, just like I'm still friends with certain people who drink and use other drugs. Neither the AV or those friends will convince me to shift my resolve. I am not afraid of the AV. My commitment to sobriety no longer has anything to do with fear; it has to do with the kind of life I want to live.
To be fair, this is the perspective of someone who has been sober since 2013. I did not feel that way at four months. At that time I was terrified. People's needs and perspectives evolve with time away from alcohol and other drugs. At four months all I could muster was a commitment to sobriety. Now, approaching four years I have additional commitments, including being as present as possible with myself and others, and that means tuning in to my external and internal environment.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Oh, and I kind of agree that it is a mistake for therapists to have folks work on other issues before getting sober, but I understand why that happens. Many people who enter therapy are ambivalent about their substance use, and if a therapist comes right out and says, "None of this matters until or unless you quit drinking," chances are the client will not return, and then the therapist is unable to be of any service. So, via Motivational Interviewing (primarily), therapists will often work with clients so that the client eventually concludes that quitting drinking and drugging is the only viable option.
In short, tell a drunk they have to stop drinking and you risk never seeing them again. Working on a case so they decide for themselves that drinking is the primary problem, and maybe they'll keep coming back until they make that value judgment for themselves.
Is that ideal? No. Does it work sometimes? Evidence is yes. Are clients sometimes pissed that the counselor didn't just say it in the first place? Yes. Does that anger often come from people who eventually quit drinking? You bet. Would they have quit drinking if the counselor said flat out, "You need to quit drinking"? Possibly but doubtful. Bottom line is telling people what to do is often counterproductive, so counselors help people evaluate their situations and make their own conclusions and resultant decisions.
In short, tell a drunk they have to stop drinking and you risk never seeing them again. Working on a case so they decide for themselves that drinking is the primary problem, and maybe they'll keep coming back until they make that value judgment for themselves.
Is that ideal? No. Does it work sometimes? Evidence is yes. Are clients sometimes pissed that the counselor didn't just say it in the first place? Yes. Does that anger often come from people who eventually quit drinking? You bet. Would they have quit drinking if the counselor said flat out, "You need to quit drinking"? Possibly but doubtful. Bottom line is telling people what to do is often counterproductive, so counselors help people evaluate their situations and make their own conclusions and resultant decisions.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
Originally Posted by zerothehero
I am committed to sobriety whether I take other measures to improve my well being or not. Choosing not to look away when unwelcome memories, for example, enter my mind stream does not seem like a healthy option, so I'm working with those memories. Period. I don't base my confidence in continued sobriety (the simple behavior of choosing not to drink or drug) on whether or not I choose to explore or suppress challenging thoughts or emotions.
So, yes, I have committed to never drinking again regardless of how I feel or what I think or what I remember or whether or not I am flooded with self-loathing or shame or resentment or disappointment, or excitement or enthusiasm, for that matter. I am not afraid of the AV. My commitment to sobriety no longer has anything to do with fear; it has to do with the kind of life I want to live.
So, yes, I have committed to never drinking again regardless of how I feel or what I think or what I remember or whether or not I am flooded with self-loathing or shame or resentment or disappointment, or excitement or enthusiasm, for that matter. I am not afraid of the AV. My commitment to sobriety no longer has anything to do with fear; it has to do with the kind of life I want to live.
I'm no longer driven by fear either. I used to be afraid of my AV, seems so silly now. Sometimes those thoughts enter my mind, I can't control every thought that I have, I just see it for what it is and carry on. It's interesting, I was out last weekend at a bbq with some friends and we were talking about how I've quit drinking and I saw my friends Beast, it was a moment of distrust and something else in his eyes. He couldn't accept that I believe I can quit forever and made a bit of fun of me. But there was a moment where I could see his Beast looking out at me with anger at my commitment. It was weird.
I think there is a process to leading up to the decision to quit. I know it took me a long time to get there. I got to a point where the pain of continuing was worse that the pleasure I got from it. It was just costing me too much. That final decision though is an event. Then and NOW. I think talk therapy can be beneficial to leading a person to that event, that moment of deciding never again. But I don't think it works if the intent is to treat symptoms to eliminate the desire. The desire may never go away, look at all the people who go back to it after years!
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
Zen
It is amazing how the experience people have are often very much the same .... yet the words they use to describe it are different! I really related my experience to yours.. Especially this sentence....
"Sometimes those thoughts enter my mind, I can't control every thought that I have, I just see it for what it is and carry on."
That sounds pretty much like my reaction and the tool I use.
Thanks.
It is amazing how the experience people have are often very much the same .... yet the words they use to describe it are different! I really related my experience to yours.. Especially this sentence....
"Sometimes those thoughts enter my mind, I can't control every thought that I have, I just see it for what it is and carry on."
That sounds pretty much like my reaction and the tool I use.
Thanks.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Originally Posted by zenchaser
But I don't think it works if the intent is to treat symptoms to eliminate the desire. The desire may never go away, look at all the people who go back to it after years!
Listening to the AV is part of listening to the mind stream I was talking about. The AV will teach you about your triggers. For me it became clear that my triggers were mostly about avoiding challenging thoughts and emotions, so working with those challenging emotions is proving to be a way to silence (for the most part) the AV and not to react to triggers. It's why I can stand in a crowd of tripping, weed-smoking, beer suckers at a Papadosio show and be fine with it.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Here's an interesting sentence I saw somewhere recently, but I can't find where anymore.
For anyone who might think AVRT helps you long-term, I present [insert any word/s you choose here] as a counterpoint to that fallacy.
IAVS (Institutional Addictive Voice Speak) is hellbent on squeezing "long-term" "helps you"s into your brain to keep you from drinking some more. The more I understand the history of addiction recovery, the more I understand the unfortunate, but comfortable liason between the Addictive Voice and proselytizing Way-of-Life/Thinking Programs.
So the quoted sentence is correct with one concept of "helps you" that associates with Orwell's famous sentence "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength." AVRT doesn't do that.
I prefer the concept of "helps you" that simply means AVRT helps you get past both addiction and recovery, and frees you up to get on with life AS YOU CHOOSE, in which case, the sentence is wrong.
Behind it all, though, is the AV's absolute terror over the idea that a drunkard could IMMEDIATELY decide "I will never drink again." and succeed. In it's perpetual flight from the Big Plan, the AV has found refuge with many "rational" people who go along with the idea that the Big Plan is an imagination that has no basis in fact and can be done over and over if it turns out you were "lying" to yourself. I'm still trying to figure out how to tell myself a lie.
For anyone who might think AVRT helps you long-term, I present [insert any word/s you choose here] as a counterpoint to that fallacy.
IAVS (Institutional Addictive Voice Speak) is hellbent on squeezing "long-term" "helps you"s into your brain to keep you from drinking some more. The more I understand the history of addiction recovery, the more I understand the unfortunate, but comfortable liason between the Addictive Voice and proselytizing Way-of-Life/Thinking Programs.
So the quoted sentence is correct with one concept of "helps you" that associates with Orwell's famous sentence "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength." AVRT doesn't do that.
I prefer the concept of "helps you" that simply means AVRT helps you get past both addiction and recovery, and frees you up to get on with life AS YOU CHOOSE, in which case, the sentence is wrong.
Behind it all, though, is the AV's absolute terror over the idea that a drunkard could IMMEDIATELY decide "I will never drink again." and succeed. In it's perpetual flight from the Big Plan, the AV has found refuge with many "rational" people who go along with the idea that the Big Plan is an imagination that has no basis in fact and can be done over and over if it turns out you were "lying" to yourself. I'm still trying to figure out how to tell myself a lie.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I notice that my AV is active if I'm in any emotional or physical discomfort and it made me understand the reasons behind HALT or resentments or triggers. The AV is a perverted survival drive and we are programmed to seek out pleasure and avoid pain. So, of course, my AV would offer me that solution to those discomforts, that's what it does, it will always offer me that solution. It's up to me to use my higher brain to override those thoughts and seek a healthier more appropriate solution to whatever ails me.
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Here I am getting ready to issue warnings. Is it that hard to understand that personal attacks are not allowed on this forum? Is it equally hard to understand AVRT isn't the only game in town?
As I've said before I've received benefit from AA, SMART and early RR writings. I don't buy into the entire AV belief as I think the part of my brain which wants me to drink is the same that wants me to do other things in my life that aren't advantageous. That's me, and I would like to have felt welcome to the Secular Connections forum if it had been here when I was a newbie at SR.
As I've said before I've received benefit from AA, SMART and early RR writings. I don't buy into the entire AV belief as I think the part of my brain which wants me to drink is the same that wants me to do other things in my life that aren't advantageous. That's me, and I would like to have felt welcome to the Secular Connections forum if it had been here when I was a newbie at SR.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Here's how insidious IT is , a problem/discomfort is an opening to be exploited regardless of solution or lessening of discomfort. IT will pounce on you when you are down, feel in trouble, are uncomfortable, IT actively looks for those things, can almost imagine IT cheering those things on.
A BP means that you have already decided that drinking is not going happen, no matter what, so IT can't offerdrinking as a solution. There is no other healthier solution best picked when ITs 'solution' is offered, not because it's not a good choice, it isn't even a choice, that has already been decided. Not big deal either, because IT wasn't offering a 'solution', IT just saw an opportunity for more booze visa vis the offer . Just like the 'offer' for making a celebrative situation 'better'
A BP means that you have already decided that drinking is not going happen, no matter what, so IT can't offerdrinking as a solution. There is no other healthier solution best picked when ITs 'solution' is offered, not because it's not a good choice, it isn't even a choice, that has already been decided. Not big deal either, because IT wasn't offering a 'solution', IT just saw an opportunity for more booze visa vis the offer . Just like the 'offer' for making a celebrative situation 'better'
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