Atheist Alternatives to Prayer
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Atheist Alternatives to Prayer
Hey,
I decided I need to work on more definitions for myself. I think it's time to get things clearer. To have a further understanding of what I already do. Instead of just doing, I'd like a way to express it when people ask. I also don't like to use words and twist their meaning. But, I do this. I speak the human language soooo. I wouldn't call a dog a potato, not even in french. - So why play with any other words? I know if I look hard enough, I can find the right ones.
So, I pray. Or do I? According to every definition of prayer I've found. I can't use it without "playing" with the words in the very definition. So, I came up with this one which may work better for me:
Imploration: An earnest or urgent request:
It does not say what or who the request is made to.
For some reason looking everywhere from Buddhism to Scientology. No prayers seemed to fit for me. Unitarian and plain old Secular didn't fit either. I just don't pray in the direction a lot of them go. I don't believe in prayers for world hunger or peace on earth do squat. I do think if I "earnestly" ask something of myself. That can do things. If I can better myself, THEN I can effect the outside world and hopefully the people in it positively. I'm not a big fan of 'The Secret' or thinking along those lines. Basically, I'm made of meat and as such, am limited to how and what I can effect. However, on a personal level. I do believe through meditation one can escape this briefly. But that's it. implorations, prayers, meditation can effect the individual only, in my opinion. :-) I'm not a meditator (yet). I'm thinking on it.
So, anyway here's an imploration idea I came up with:
Unspecific daily:
May I see reality today and not
illusions from my own prejiduced mind
May I interact with those around me purely
May my choices in situations be thoughtful
both to myself and others
May I see and use all opportunities today
that will improve both my quality of life
and that of others.
May I do no harm to myself or others
May I find contentment today
Now, I can ponder a specific issue that's buggersome or just use it generally.
Oh, I love the serenity prayer. I just leave the first word out. ;-)
Anyone else have a twist on prayer. I'd like to see if I can expand more.
I decided I need to work on more definitions for myself. I think it's time to get things clearer. To have a further understanding of what I already do. Instead of just doing, I'd like a way to express it when people ask. I also don't like to use words and twist their meaning. But, I do this. I speak the human language soooo. I wouldn't call a dog a potato, not even in french. - So why play with any other words? I know if I look hard enough, I can find the right ones.
So, I pray. Or do I? According to every definition of prayer I've found. I can't use it without "playing" with the words in the very definition. So, I came up with this one which may work better for me:
Imploration: An earnest or urgent request:
It does not say what or who the request is made to.
For some reason looking everywhere from Buddhism to Scientology. No prayers seemed to fit for me. Unitarian and plain old Secular didn't fit either. I just don't pray in the direction a lot of them go. I don't believe in prayers for world hunger or peace on earth do squat. I do think if I "earnestly" ask something of myself. That can do things. If I can better myself, THEN I can effect the outside world and hopefully the people in it positively. I'm not a big fan of 'The Secret' or thinking along those lines. Basically, I'm made of meat and as such, am limited to how and what I can effect. However, on a personal level. I do believe through meditation one can escape this briefly. But that's it. implorations, prayers, meditation can effect the individual only, in my opinion. :-) I'm not a meditator (yet). I'm thinking on it.
So, anyway here's an imploration idea I came up with:
Unspecific daily:
May I see reality today and not
illusions from my own prejiduced mind
May I interact with those around me purely
May my choices in situations be thoughtful
both to myself and others
May I see and use all opportunities today
that will improve both my quality of life
and that of others.
May I do no harm to myself or others
May I find contentment today
Now, I can ponder a specific issue that's buggersome or just use it generally.
Oh, I love the serenity prayer. I just leave the first word out. ;-)
Anyone else have a twist on prayer. I'd like to see if I can expand more.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
May Alizern find and follow her spiritual path, may we walk skillfully through our Karma.
May my home group find and folow it's spiritual path, may we walk skillfully through our karma.
May all human beings find and follow their spritual path, may we walk skillfully through our karma.
I've also slightly reworded the big book pg 86/87...i use the word we because the "prayer" is not just for me but for the world....
As we consider our plans for the day, please direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonesty or self-seeking motives. Place our thought-life on a higher ploane, cleared of worng motives.
When we face indecision, and are unable to dettermine which corse to take...grant us inspiration, intuitive thoughts and decisions. Let us relax and take it easy and sease our struggles. May the occational hunch or inspiration become a working part of our minds. Let our thinking become more and more on the plane of inspiration and let us rely upon it.
Show us throughout the day what our next step is to be, give us what is needed to take care of such problems as arise.
Throogh out the day when we arre agitated or doubtful, grant us right thought and action. Let us stay out of the danger of exitement, fear, angerk, worry, self-pity and foolish decisions.
I don't see this as asking some interceder to help us....or at least i haven't in the past...it's more like leaning on the buddha nature...where we all want to be the best we can be and where all of these actions would in fact be natural if we could but get in touch with that great reality within....
May my home group find and folow it's spiritual path, may we walk skillfully through our karma.
May all human beings find and follow their spritual path, may we walk skillfully through our karma.
I've also slightly reworded the big book pg 86/87...i use the word we because the "prayer" is not just for me but for the world....
As we consider our plans for the day, please direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonesty or self-seeking motives. Place our thought-life on a higher ploane, cleared of worng motives.
When we face indecision, and are unable to dettermine which corse to take...grant us inspiration, intuitive thoughts and decisions. Let us relax and take it easy and sease our struggles. May the occational hunch or inspiration become a working part of our minds. Let our thinking become more and more on the plane of inspiration and let us rely upon it.
Show us throughout the day what our next step is to be, give us what is needed to take care of such problems as arise.
Throogh out the day when we arre agitated or doubtful, grant us right thought and action. Let us stay out of the danger of exitement, fear, angerk, worry, self-pity and foolish decisions.
I don't see this as asking some interceder to help us....or at least i haven't in the past...it's more like leaning on the buddha nature...where we all want to be the best we can be and where all of these actions would in fact be natural if we could but get in touch with that great reality within....
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Hey thanks Ananda,
I'm very good at making things much more complicated than they are! With that said, and this is for ME only (just clarifying my ideas)
"As we consider our plans for the day, please direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonesty or self-seeking motives. Place our thought-life on a higher ploane, cleared of worng motives."
This is great! Except I would change the "We" to "I" not for ego reasons, but because of what I mentioned above about having no power over "we". So, for me. I'd nix all references to "we, our, us etc..."
You gave me some good yummy things to get into.
1.) Define spirituality (I shy from this word, and yet I have it, or something like it).
2.) Karma - I shy from this too.
I'd like to find some words that have a less "mystical" connotation?
Thanks for giving me something to do today! ;-)
I'm very good at making things much more complicated than they are! With that said, and this is for ME only (just clarifying my ideas)
"As we consider our plans for the day, please direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonesty or self-seeking motives. Place our thought-life on a higher ploane, cleared of worng motives."
This is great! Except I would change the "We" to "I" not for ego reasons, but because of what I mentioned above about having no power over "we". So, for me. I'd nix all references to "we, our, us etc..."
You gave me some good yummy things to get into.
1.) Define spirituality (I shy from this word, and yet I have it, or something like it).
2.) Karma - I shy from this too.
I'd like to find some words that have a less "mystical" connotation?
Thanks for giving me something to do today! ;-)
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Okay, stumbled over this, read it before. Probably need to review now and again:
Can an atheist be a spiritual person?
Absolutely. If we think of something like trait spirituality as ranging on a continuum from low to high, atheists can score at any point along the continuum just like anyone else. High scores would indicate someone who seeks spiritual experiences or who experiences the various components of spirituality, depending on how the measure functions.
Practically, we might see a spiritual atheist as highly empathic, aware of his or her connection to others, concerned with equality and social justice, regularly awed by the beauty of nature, etc. Such descriptors apply in varying degrees to all persons, theist and atheist alike.
Take something simpler, such as the need for meaning, and think about some of your friends. Some are probably deeper than others in the sense that they enjoy thought-provoking questions even more than the answers. They are about the journey and find great pleasure in learning, debate, and self-exploration. Others are more concrete, less concerned with inner exploration about more concerned with action. They have little interest in reflection and want answers on which they can rely. They may have little tolerance for ambiguity or uncertainty.
-----------
Okay, so I understand that it is accepted that spiritual be defined by the individual. I do this. However, the purpose of my thread is to stay away from that. To basically accept the words for what they are to the general population. So, the most widely accepted definition of spirituality seems to be along these lines:
Spiritual:
Spirituality is relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Synonyms include immaterialism, dualism, incorporeality and eternity. ...
Okay, I got that.
Can an atheist be a spiritual person?
Absolutely. If we think of something like trait spirituality as ranging on a continuum from low to high, atheists can score at any point along the continuum just like anyone else. High scores would indicate someone who seeks spiritual experiences or who experiences the various components of spirituality, depending on how the measure functions.
Practically, we might see a spiritual atheist as highly empathic, aware of his or her connection to others, concerned with equality and social justice, regularly awed by the beauty of nature, etc. Such descriptors apply in varying degrees to all persons, theist and atheist alike.
Take something simpler, such as the need for meaning, and think about some of your friends. Some are probably deeper than others in the sense that they enjoy thought-provoking questions even more than the answers. They are about the journey and find great pleasure in learning, debate, and self-exploration. Others are more concrete, less concerned with inner exploration about more concerned with action. They have little interest in reflection and want answers on which they can rely. They may have little tolerance for ambiguity or uncertainty.
-----------
Okay, so I understand that it is accepted that spiritual be defined by the individual. I do this. However, the purpose of my thread is to stay away from that. To basically accept the words for what they are to the general population. So, the most widely accepted definition of spirituality seems to be along these lines:
Spiritual:
Spirituality is relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Synonyms include immaterialism, dualism, incorporeality and eternity. ...
Okay, I got that.
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
(don't mind me, just journaling) ;-)
Okay, revisiting karma.
Buddhism religion basically interprets this as being a significant factor in rebirth or reincarnation if you will. Also, a significant factor in this life, as karma follows us through births.
Buddhism from a philosophy standpoint pretty much comes down to cause and effect.
Karma:
moral law of cause and effect
Getting back to prayer (since this is a 12-step forum and prayer OR imploration can be a key factor).
An imploration as defined above, can help lower the negative effects caused by poor choices. Cause and effect. We can try to minimize the effect as being damaging or hindering. The effect will still be there. But, with a clear mind we can alter what it is. - To us.
Okay, revisiting karma.
Buddhism religion basically interprets this as being a significant factor in rebirth or reincarnation if you will. Also, a significant factor in this life, as karma follows us through births.
Buddhism from a philosophy standpoint pretty much comes down to cause and effect.
Karma:
moral law of cause and effect
Getting back to prayer (since this is a 12-step forum and prayer OR imploration can be a key factor).
An imploration as defined above, can help lower the negative effects caused by poor choices. Cause and effect. We can try to minimize the effect as being damaging or hindering. The effect will still be there. But, with a clear mind we can alter what it is. - To us.
Go ask the Multivax
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
I guess what I'm trying to build on here is a better description of my Higher Power. Since it was pointed out to me that humanity may not be the be all description for me.
"No human power could have relieved our alcoholism"
It was good that someone pointed this out and I'm trying to figure out if I reject this idea. To do that I have to really look within. Although, I am leaning towards rejection.
"No human power could have relieved our alcoholism"
It was good that someone pointed this out and I'm trying to figure out if I reject this idea. To do that I have to really look within. Although, I am leaning towards rejection.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 14
I struggle with the same issues. On my first attempt at AA several years ago, it was all the God/religion stuff that gave me the convenient excuse to drop out of the program.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
A google search brought me to an old thread on these forums that has helped shape my approach to AA - http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...hiests-aa.html
I like your idea of turning "prayer" inward. I can't convince myself that some mystical being is going to help me, it's got to be me helping myself. That said, the support of the recovering alcoholics community is priceless. I doubt I could do it alone; I've tried and failed several times.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
A google search brought me to an old thread on these forums that has helped shape my approach to AA - http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...hiests-aa.html
I like your idea of turning "prayer" inward. I can't convince myself that some mystical being is going to help me, it's got to be me helping myself. That said, the support of the recovering alcoholics community is priceless. I doubt I could do it alone; I've tried and failed several times.
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I use mantras instead of prayer. Mantras help me bring my intention into focus. Prayer for me is asking for something...be it peace of mind or behavior change or whatnot from a supernatural force. But on the other hand mantras help me clarify and center myself on a path of higher personal transformation with a physical act such as verbalizing. I think this act utilizes different neural pathways than just thinking silently of my intention to transform.
So with a mantra I remind myself that I can tap into and release my higher potential. I don't feel I could get the same from prayer...others may be able to do it that way...I don't know.
I'm not keen on using the word spirituality because of its apparent common connotation as well. In the past I described my personal transformation journey as being a 'inner-space cadet'...yea that was funky trying to describe my search for tranquility and all things good by proclaiming that.
So yea...lets see...I can say I'm a _________ person. So far I have been saying I a secular spiritual person, but I don't like to qualify spirituality just for greater clarification.
Something to ponder today...maybe bring it up in today's PTSD group. And now its time to get ready and get off to group. Great topic
Ali...looking forward to coming back to your thread and reading what others or yourself have to further write.
So with a mantra I remind myself that I can tap into and release my higher potential. I don't feel I could get the same from prayer...others may be able to do it that way...I don't know.
Originally Posted by Alizerin
Okay, so I understand that it is accepted that spiritual be defined by the individual. I do this. However, the purpose of my thread is to stay away from that. To basically accept the words for what they are to the general population. So, the most widely accepted definition of spirituality seems to be along these lines:
Spiritual:
Spirituality is relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Synonyms include immaterialism, dualism, incorporeality and eternity. ...
Okay, I got that.
Spiritual:
Spirituality is relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Synonyms include immaterialism, dualism, incorporeality and eternity. ...
Okay, I got that.
So yea...lets see...I can say I'm a _________ person. So far I have been saying I a secular spiritual person, but I don't like to qualify spirituality just for greater clarification.
Something to ponder today...maybe bring it up in today's PTSD group. And now its time to get ready and get off to group. Great topic
Ali...looking forward to coming back to your thread and reading what others or yourself have to further write.
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yep A...for me Karma is "the law of cause and effect" period....not reincarnation from frog to human or vise versa....
Like zencat mine are more like mantras...to focus. I am considering the idea that the buddha nature in myself and all things is something that if i can be aware of it can influence me in ways taht make being in tune with the buddha nature, and the world....
mkay...gotta go job interview and counciling are calling...but i am getting some value from sharing here on SR ..... more than i am from cleaning house
Like zencat mine are more like mantras...to focus. I am considering the idea that the buddha nature in myself and all things is something that if i can be aware of it can influence me in ways taht make being in tune with the buddha nature, and the world....
mkay...gotta go job interview and counciling are calling...but i am getting some value from sharing here on SR ..... more than i am from cleaning house
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Originally Posted by Alizerin 
non-theist?
Unfortunately or fortunately? There isn't an agreed up definition of what Atheism is. I just know I am one. Thank you for posting!!
"Nontheism is a term that covers a range of both religious and nonreligious attitudes characterized by the absence of — or the rejection of — theism or any belief in a personal god or gods. It is in use in the fields of Christian apologetics and general liberal theology. "Nontheism" should not be confused with "irreligion".
Non-theism has various types. "Strong atheism" is the positive belief that a god does not exist. Someone who does not think about the existence of a deity may be termed "weakly atheistic", or more specifically implicitly atheist. Other, more qualified types of nontheism are often known as agnosticism, or more specifically explicit atheism. "Strong" or "positive" agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a more precise opinion than weak agnosticism, which is the belief that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable. Philosopher Anthony Kenny distinguishes between agnostics, who find the claim "God exists" uncertain, and theological noncognitivists, who consider all God-talk to be meaningless.[1]
Other, related, philosophical opinions about the existence of deity are ignosticism and skepticism. Because of variation of the term "god", it is understood that a person could be an atheist in terms of certain portrayals of gods, while remaining agnostic in terms of others.
Invented originally as a synonym for secularism (see below), it has become an umbrella term for summarizing various distinct and even mutually exclusive positions united by a naturalist approach, sometimes in the plural, nontheisms."
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^
Hey, thanks! That's a interesting read.
Somewhere I read something about Fundamental Atheists who basically not only don't believe in a diety, but arn't the least bit interested in thinking about why the universe bothers to be or other such questions.
I'm certainly not that!
Hey, thanks! That's a interesting read.
Somewhere I read something about Fundamental Atheists who basically not only don't believe in a diety, but arn't the least bit interested in thinking about why the universe bothers to be or other such questions.
I'm certainly not that!
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Okay, did some wanderings and thinking. I think I am comfortable with humanity as a higher power:
humanity definition
hu·man·ity (hyo̵̅o̅ man′ə tē, yo̵̅o̅-)
noun pl. humanities -·ties
1. the fact or quality of being human; human nature
2. human qualities or characteristics, esp. those considered desirable
3. the human race; mankind; people
4. the fact or quality of being humane; kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.
Like I said in some other thread, the darwinian idea of living as we're supposed to in this stage of our evolution. I ain't gonna say Darwin is my higher power. I've thought about my higher power as being "Darwinian in nature". But this is a mere description of something else. Which just brings me back to Humanity. All thoughts and philosophies come from humans. The reality we are stuck in. No whimsical creature is giving us these ideas. We come up with them on our own. How we do this varies from meditation to mathematics. Very human.
So, I confidently reject this idea:
"No human power could have relieved our alcoholism"
So there! Now, I'd like to think of myself as not closed minded. So, this idea clould change. But, for now this is it. Some folks have suggested that the "universe" can be their higher power. However, this would include everything tangible. Not only is it too broad for me to concentrate on any one aspect of it - "The universe as my higher power" is again, attached to mystical connotations.
Humanity in any shape or form. That is my higher power.
Self Imploration is my "prayer"
Zencat, I saw your mantra in the other thread down there. I likey it. That would work for someone like me.
humanity definition
hu·man·ity (hyo̵̅o̅ man′ə tē, yo̵̅o̅-)
noun pl. humanities -·ties
1. the fact or quality of being human; human nature
2. human qualities or characteristics, esp. those considered desirable
3. the human race; mankind; people
4. the fact or quality of being humane; kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.
Like I said in some other thread, the darwinian idea of living as we're supposed to in this stage of our evolution. I ain't gonna say Darwin is my higher power. I've thought about my higher power as being "Darwinian in nature". But this is a mere description of something else. Which just brings me back to Humanity. All thoughts and philosophies come from humans. The reality we are stuck in. No whimsical creature is giving us these ideas. We come up with them on our own. How we do this varies from meditation to mathematics. Very human.
So, I confidently reject this idea:
"No human power could have relieved our alcoholism"
So there! Now, I'd like to think of myself as not closed minded. So, this idea clould change. But, for now this is it. Some folks have suggested that the "universe" can be their higher power. However, this would include everything tangible. Not only is it too broad for me to concentrate on any one aspect of it - "The universe as my higher power" is again, attached to mystical connotations.
Humanity in any shape or form. That is my higher power.
Self Imploration is my "prayer"
Zencat, I saw your mantra in the other thread down there. I likey it. That would work for someone like me.
Go ask the Multivax
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I'm still looking for a word to use instead of spiritual, with basically means of the spirit. My view right now is that we do not have a seperate spirit. If, upon death, if there is any residual energy that moves on to, I dunno - Somewhere in the cosmos. I wouldn't call that a spirit as we tend to use the word. The energy we might dispense after death would be pure. Kind of akin to a bolt of lightning. We cease to exist in the human way. We have no thoughts and certainly no individuality. So, we are simply annihilated. In my opinion!
This sounds depressing, I don't think it is. Human's are interesting and I like being one. :-)
Pondering, pondering.
This sounds depressing, I don't think it is. Human's are interesting and I like being one. :-)
Pondering, pondering.
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This was almost too abovious. This fits for me as a alternative to the word spiritual.
consciousness /con·scious·ness/ (-nes)
1. the state of being conscious.
2. subjective awareness of the aspects of cognitive processing and the content of the mind.
3. the current totality of experience of which an individual or group is aware at any time.
4. the conscious.
Human conciousness.
consciousness /con·scious·ness/ (-nes)
1. the state of being conscious.
2. subjective awareness of the aspects of cognitive processing and the content of the mind.
3. the current totality of experience of which an individual or group is aware at any time.
4. the conscious.
Human conciousness.
Laozi Old Man
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Originally Posted by Alizerin
So, I pray. Or do I? According to every definition of prayer I've found. I can't use it without "playing" with the words in the very definition. So, I came up with this one which may work better for me:
I am currently experimenting with candle vigils. I have even made up a little rhyme to go with them:
Little candle pry for me
Shine your light on what I can't see
I know so little about my life
I have to trust you like a wife
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Boleo -
"mainly because the benefit that I get out of it fades with repetition."
Thanks for reminding me of this simple truth. Riding on the serenity prayer for three years (minus the first word). Isn't cutting it much anymore. Helps in a big bind still tho. Still, for a daily prayer BEFORE getting in a bind is exactly what I had in mind.
I did the candle thing a while back too. Nice mantra.
"mainly because the benefit that I get out of it fades with repetition."
Thanks for reminding me of this simple truth. Riding on the serenity prayer for three years (minus the first word). Isn't cutting it much anymore. Helps in a big bind still tho. Still, for a daily prayer BEFORE getting in a bind is exactly what I had in mind.
I did the candle thing a while back too. Nice mantra.
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