Atheist Alternatives to Prayer
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
hopefully all these "prayers" are followed up by sincere meditation?????
I find the prayers may get me through without falling on my face, but to walk skilfully through my karma requires I focus on letting something new into my thinking after the prayer is said...in what ever form...
I find the prayers may get me through without falling on my face, but to walk skilfully through my karma requires I focus on letting something new into my thinking after the prayer is said...in what ever form...
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Omak WA
Posts: 1,049
Atheist Alternatives to Prayer.....
Hi Everyone,
Lots of good thoughts....I am a Lutheran...but gave up on God & formal religion when my twin baby girl died of SIDS. This was in 1969...she & her brother were 4 & 1/2 months old. I remember standing outside yelling up to a clear blue sky "There cannot be a God because he wouldn't have let my baby die."
When I discovered how to use the Serenity Prayer in my life while going to AA, I found it to be my HP & used it many times daily. A ways into my sobriety I found that my (God) of my understanding was within me...in my heart... when I accepted this way of thinking along with the Serenity Prayer, I felt a warmness all over me & felt calmer & glad to have a way that I could deal with the Spiritual part of the program. I use we a lot but also pray for a special person when made aware of their issue at the current time.
I am never without the Serenity Prayer in all daily issues & I also use meditation & positive thoughts & words. I am always qu estioning my plan or daily decisions (more when in a depression). Sober Recovery has helped me more than I thought a Forum ever could.
kelsh
Lots of good thoughts....I am a Lutheran...but gave up on God & formal religion when my twin baby girl died of SIDS. This was in 1969...she & her brother were 4 & 1/2 months old. I remember standing outside yelling up to a clear blue sky "There cannot be a God because he wouldn't have let my baby die."
When I discovered how to use the Serenity Prayer in my life while going to AA, I found it to be my HP & used it many times daily. A ways into my sobriety I found that my (God) of my understanding was within me...in my heart... when I accepted this way of thinking along with the Serenity Prayer, I felt a warmness all over me & felt calmer & glad to have a way that I could deal with the Spiritual part of the program. I use we a lot but also pray for a special person when made aware of their issue at the current time.
I am never without the Serenity Prayer in all daily issues & I also use meditation & positive thoughts & words. I am always qu estioning my plan or daily decisions (more when in a depression). Sober Recovery has helped me more than I thought a Forum ever could.
kelsh
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Wow, Kelsh - Many great things in that post. I too had a personal tradegy that had me thrown into recovery and questioning...well, everything.
It's the most personal experience I've ever had, didn't know it was in me - to have that awakening. The few weeks of it had me high as a kite. I think one of the major differences between an awakening as opposed to a "stage". is that the awakening, never goes away. It's become engrained in us. Still questioning and learning - because it simply becomes a part of what we are now. inseperable. So, still questioning and learning about ourselves includes this new part of us. Awsome, isn't it!
It's the most personal experience I've ever had, didn't know it was in me - to have that awakening. The few weeks of it had me high as a kite. I think one of the major differences between an awakening as opposed to a "stage". is that the awakening, never goes away. It's become engrained in us. Still questioning and learning - because it simply becomes a part of what we are now. inseperable. So, still questioning and learning about ourselves includes this new part of us. Awsome, isn't it!
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
[QUOTE=SeanJ;2533045]I struggle with the same issues. On my first attempt at AA several years ago, it was all the God/religion stuff that gave me the convenient excuse to drop out of the program.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
SeanJ, I had similar issues with AA...at least I thought I did. vowed never to go to a meeting, thought I was "different, etc. I believe that very often what we hear says more about us than it does the speaker. In fact, while I heard lots of people credit "God" and "HP" for their sobriety, I was not assaulted with religious tenets in AA. It is spiritual, not religious, and I think it is important to remember that. My own perception of "God" is certainly non-theist, and I have been sober a long while. I do have an idea of a spirit or energy that is the essence of the universe: It is constant/unchanging, without emotions and without judgement. It just is. It runs through us all, connecting us. Perhaps I could call it love, though it is not like the giddy, cuddly kind that I thought I wanted. I know when I am in sync with it--I am exactly the right size, exactly where I need to be. My job is to cease to separate myself from spirit.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
SeanJ, I had similar issues with AA...at least I thought I did. vowed never to go to a meeting, thought I was "different, etc. I believe that very often what we hear says more about us than it does the speaker. In fact, while I heard lots of people credit "God" and "HP" for their sobriety, I was not assaulted with religious tenets in AA. It is spiritual, not religious, and I think it is important to remember that. My own perception of "God" is certainly non-theist, and I have been sober a long while. I do have an idea of a spirit or energy that is the essence of the universe: It is constant/unchanging, without emotions and without judgement. It just is. It runs through us all, connecting us. Perhaps I could call it love, though it is not like the giddy, cuddly kind that I thought I wanted. I know when I am in sync with it--I am exactly the right size, exactly where I need to be. My job is to cease to separate myself from spirit.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 14
[QUOTE=murrill;2534148] I don't feel "assaulted" with religious tenets in AA either, although there is a strong "God" current running through every aspect of the program. That's ok, I don't begrudge anyone for embracing their religious beliefs, especially if it helps them stay sober. I've heard of meetings with a lot of bible thumping going on, that I would have a real hard time dealing with.
I have expressed my point of view at a couple of meetings, and have received nothing but support.
Originally Posted by SeanJ 
I struggle with the same issues. On my first attempt at AA several years ago, it was all the God/religion stuff that gave me the convenient excuse to drop out of the program.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
SeanJ, I had similar issues with AA...at least I thought I did. vowed never to go to a meeting, thought I was "different, etc. I believe that very often what we hear says more about us than it does the speaker. In fact, while I heard lots of people credit "God" and "HP" for their sobriety, I was not assaulted with religious tenets in AA. It is spiritual, not religious, and I think it is important to remember that. My own perception of "God" is certainly non-theist, and I have been sober a long while. I do have an idea of a spirit or energy that is the essence of the universe: It is constant/unchanging, without emotions and without judgement. It just is. It runs through us all, connecting us. Perhaps I could call it love, though it is not like the giddy, cuddly kind that I thought I wanted. I know when I am in sync with it--I am exactly the right size, exactly where I need to be. My job is to cease to separate myself from spirit.
I'm back in now, although my belief system (somewhere between atheist and agnostic, non-theist maybe?) has not changed.
SeanJ, I had similar issues with AA...at least I thought I did. vowed never to go to a meeting, thought I was "different, etc. I believe that very often what we hear says more about us than it does the speaker. In fact, while I heard lots of people credit "God" and "HP" for their sobriety, I was not assaulted with religious tenets in AA. It is spiritual, not religious, and I think it is important to remember that. My own perception of "God" is certainly non-theist, and I have been sober a long while. I do have an idea of a spirit or energy that is the essence of the universe: It is constant/unchanging, without emotions and without judgement. It just is. It runs through us all, connecting us. Perhaps I could call it love, though it is not like the giddy, cuddly kind that I thought I wanted. I know when I am in sync with it--I am exactly the right size, exactly where I need to be. My job is to cease to separate myself from spirit.
I have expressed my point of view at a couple of meetings, and have received nothing but support.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 118
I believe that nothing that exists or happens violates the nature of the universe; I also believe that all such things only further define the nature of the universe.
As long as I am open minded and willing to be honest about the things that occur I find a great measure of balance and peace.
As long as I am open minded and willing to be honest about the things that occur I find a great measure of balance and peace.
Go ask the Multivax
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Thanks everyone for helping me get all this in order. The initial intent was to better express my higher power in conversation. Instead of using words that seem to go against my Atheist beliefs. When I was new in the program, I would ask people questions who seemed to have an alternative higher power like "nature". The responses were unsatisfying - hard to identify with. This thread has had a double benefit as I'm feeling a deeper connection to it.
So, It could go something like this:
Q: I'm having trouble finding a higher power as there is so much reference to God, what do you use as a higher power? (I'm pretty close to the bible belt- lords prayer after almost every meeting)
A: I am an Atheist. I do not believe in Deities, or Gods as commonly defined. I do not pray, as prayer is generally defined as a request directed to a God. I utilize self implorations. Or, Mantras. Because I believe that the human conscious is confined to the human brain. These implorations or mantras are to help direct me to be the most helpful to others and myself. My definition of a Higher Power is Humanity as a whole. As we are pretty much bound by our meat sacks. I foster and deepen my relationship to my HP by conversing with others, reading works by others, Dead or Alive. Good or Bad, even made-up. Then thinking, pondering, or meditating on the various inputs. This can only be done after gaining a true love for humanity. Just as those who follow a god need to find a true love for him/it/she. Human consciousness is for me, is what others generally refer to as spirituality. I tend to feed my consciousness regularly. It is what defines me and yet it is a mystery. It is what keeps me asking the big questions. It is what drives me to live. It is what keeps me sober.
I think that's it. ;-)
So, It could go something like this:
Q: I'm having trouble finding a higher power as there is so much reference to God, what do you use as a higher power? (I'm pretty close to the bible belt- lords prayer after almost every meeting)
A: I am an Atheist. I do not believe in Deities, or Gods as commonly defined. I do not pray, as prayer is generally defined as a request directed to a God. I utilize self implorations. Or, Mantras. Because I believe that the human conscious is confined to the human brain. These implorations or mantras are to help direct me to be the most helpful to others and myself. My definition of a Higher Power is Humanity as a whole. As we are pretty much bound by our meat sacks. I foster and deepen my relationship to my HP by conversing with others, reading works by others, Dead or Alive. Good or Bad, even made-up. Then thinking, pondering, or meditating on the various inputs. This can only be done after gaining a true love for humanity. Just as those who follow a god need to find a true love for him/it/she. Human consciousness is for me, is what others generally refer to as spirituality. I tend to feed my consciousness regularly. It is what defines me and yet it is a mystery. It is what keeps me asking the big questions. It is what drives me to live. It is what keeps me sober.
I think that's it. ;-)
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
How do I define a Higher Power? I'm not even sure whether to call myself an atheist or an agnostist! But I do know that I do not subscribe to any religious dogma, that I do not believe in an interventionist deity or any other being outside of myself.
I came to believe, over time, in an energy or a spirit: It is even and consistent, and it runs through us all. As such, we are entwined, connected; we are one. This spirit is a state of grace, without judgement or opinion or any of those other volatile & arbitrary mental mindsets. It is a miracle, but not in the sense that many of us learned of miracles: It is a miracle because it is the way things are supposed to be instead of as we humans define them. I am in an ideal place when I can relase myself into the spirit; I am in ego when I separate from it. Being far less than perfect I routinely choose ego, catch myself, and try to choose spirit. Fear may separate me, but only when I choose it.
I came to believe, over time, in an energy or a spirit: It is even and consistent, and it runs through us all. As such, we are entwined, connected; we are one. This spirit is a state of grace, without judgement or opinion or any of those other volatile & arbitrary mental mindsets. It is a miracle, but not in the sense that many of us learned of miracles: It is a miracle because it is the way things are supposed to be instead of as we humans define them. I am in an ideal place when I can relase myself into the spirit; I am in ego when I separate from it. Being far less than perfect I routinely choose ego, catch myself, and try to choose spirit. Fear may separate me, but only when I choose it.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
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Originally Posted by murrill
I believe that very often what we hear says more about us than it does the speaker.
Thanks for the reminder Murrill. Good to have you here at the secular steps forum.This lesson is slowly sinking into my thick skull...LOL. When I react in a negative way to something said, it is telling me not to cling to my fears or insecurities. Also, I am learn and come to know that my foundation of cherished beliefs are on shack ground.
A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him.
David Brinkley
David Brinkley
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
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Alizerin,
There's always tonglen meditation that I posted on, or a loving-kindness can be very powerful. People think of meditation as "doing nothing," actually it is a very active thing.
I haven 't been in thsi section for awhile, so I'm kinda late to the party.
There's always tonglen meditation that I posted on, or a loving-kindness can be very powerful. People think of meditation as "doing nothing," actually it is a very active thing.
I haven 't been in thsi section for awhile, so I'm kinda late to the party.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
And this. Overheard at an AA meeting. Ok, I said it to a guy I was talking to.
Man: Do you pray?
Me: Yes
Man: What do you say to your Higher Power?
Me: May all beings be happy, may all beings be joyfull, may all beings be free from suffering.
Man: Ah, ok. (looked very quizzical after that.)
I have a Higher Power but I don't pry to it, per se. I just pray for all beings to be happy and free from suffering.
Man: Do you pray?
Me: Yes
Man: What do you say to your Higher Power?
Me: May all beings be happy, may all beings be joyfull, may all beings be free from suffering.
Man: Ah, ok. (looked very quizzical after that.)
I have a Higher Power but I don't pry to it, per se. I just pray for all beings to be happy and free from suffering.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,900
Originally Posted by Zencat
When I react in a negative way to something said, it is telling me not to cling to my fears or insecurities. Also, I am learn and come to know that my foundation of cherished beliefs are on shack ground.
Also when I react negatively to something said I can come to know that my foundation of cherished beliefs are on shaky ground. Meaning: I need to practice my healing path with more diligence.
There I feel better
.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Posts: 6
To an atheist, there is a great deal of absurdity to AA's original text. Statements like "There is one who has all power; may you find Him now," "God could and would if He were sought," are not only blatantly theistic but they are arrogant, zealous and the ramblings of the newly converted. The Spiritual Experience Appendix was an attempt to tone down this evangelical tone. Bill would spend the next 25+ years of his sobriety apologizing for his spiritual arrogance.
"The Dilemma of No Faith" a 1961 Grapevine article is one such example. There is n dilemma of no faith. I'm in my 40th year of sobriety and I don't believe in a prayer answering, sobriety granting higher power. I am happy joyous and free (much of the time). See; no dilemma.
If there is a dilemma it is that most of the AA literature discounts skepticism, doubt or a natural (scientific) understanding of the universe and sobriety as being rebellious or as one who is an intellectual hold out. That's not fair and it's rather old-fashioned.
21st century 12-Step literature is a little bit more enlightened. Online Gamers Anonymous, ITAA (technology) and TAA (teen addicts anonymous) are all this-century fellowships and their literature speaks of atheist as a perfectly legit worldview from which to approach the Steps.
"Experience trumps explanation." That's an expression from Rev. Ward Ewing, AA's Chair of the Board Emeritus who campaigned for an atheist/agnostic pamphlet to help AA keep up with the times. The phenomena of addiction and the phenomena of recovery, while we have all experienced it, our explanations might divide us.
You see Divine intervention getting you sober and that is your proof of God.
I find I tapped an unsuspected inner resource which is proof of a source of power but I wouldn't call it "not of this world." Power of example, inner resolve, reliance on my group of drunks (home group), these are game changers for me but I don't think they were orchestrated by a creator God. To believe in such a thing - for me - would be superstitious and dishonest. While I respect everyone's right to personal beliefs, I don't have to buy into them. Unity - not uniformity - connects me to the greater AA. We need not agree when we explain how we got sober. It's just great that we did and we can learn from each other.
"The Dilemma of No Faith" a 1961 Grapevine article is one such example. There is n dilemma of no faith. I'm in my 40th year of sobriety and I don't believe in a prayer answering, sobriety granting higher power. I am happy joyous and free (much of the time). See; no dilemma.
If there is a dilemma it is that most of the AA literature discounts skepticism, doubt or a natural (scientific) understanding of the universe and sobriety as being rebellious or as one who is an intellectual hold out. That's not fair and it's rather old-fashioned.
21st century 12-Step literature is a little bit more enlightened. Online Gamers Anonymous, ITAA (technology) and TAA (teen addicts anonymous) are all this-century fellowships and their literature speaks of atheist as a perfectly legit worldview from which to approach the Steps.
"Experience trumps explanation." That's an expression from Rev. Ward Ewing, AA's Chair of the Board Emeritus who campaigned for an atheist/agnostic pamphlet to help AA keep up with the times. The phenomena of addiction and the phenomena of recovery, while we have all experienced it, our explanations might divide us.
You see Divine intervention getting you sober and that is your proof of God.
I find I tapped an unsuspected inner resource which is proof of a source of power but I wouldn't call it "not of this world." Power of example, inner resolve, reliance on my group of drunks (home group), these are game changers for me but I don't think they were orchestrated by a creator God. To believe in such a thing - for me - would be superstitious and dishonest. While I respect everyone's right to personal beliefs, I don't have to buy into them. Unity - not uniformity - connects me to the greater AA. We need not agree when we explain how we got sober. It's just great that we did and we can learn from each other.
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