Spacegoat

Part 2 of my response to you Jennie, as the first bit took on a life of it's own. I know everyone has their story to tell. Thats basically what I am doing here, and looking for advice at the same time (thanks SR)

I went to doctors for years about anxiety, insomnia, depression, suicidal ideation. But I never once mentioned the abuse at home, although I'm sure it's probably well known by now.

I have often wished my parents had a drug or alcohol problem, it would have made their behavior much easier to understand. It wasn't occasional violence, it was systematic and every day when they were together.

And, as I have read on here- being the oldest, I took 95% of the abuse along with my mother, while defending her (these days it suits her narrative to say I made the situatione worse by doing that!!)

I'm not looking for sympathy by the way, I never have done I'm just getting it out there.

But, I have spent over half my life now deliberating over this almost constantly and things have not improved one bit. I thought I was over all this but I am really not I'm at square one. Back to my point.

My doctor said this to me one day, I was telling him about what was happening at home, how my mother was torturing me psychologically and I though she was a pathological liar (I'm sure I was angry at the time).

He said "but you are from a good family". I just went, pfffft. What the F was he talking about? The hardcore abuse was well known and documented, my parents were going to marriage counselling for a long time etc.

The cops were at the house on many occasions, and apparently all of my family have had counselling except me. Anyway I thought about it a lot after that, it pissed me off a bit. My family is highly dysfunctional and always was.

Sure, all my parents siblings are respectable people with middle class jobs and happy families (I think that's what he was getting at) but my family have always been poor, dependent, and dysfunctional full stop.

With this abuse of every F'n description taking place daily, and more for me outside the home (and also in it) besides. Anyways I'm ranting now. No, I have never got any therapy or counselling actually.

Soberpotamus

My suggestion is to keep sobriety your #1 focus and get into therapy if you aren't already. Go consistently and work through these things

Work on acknowledging your feelings and ready yourself to forgive. Forgiving is for you, not for them. You aren't releasing them from their responsibilities they had as parents, instead you are letting go of your hurt, disappointment and anger so that you can go on with your life.

GracieLou

I learned all I could about the disorder. The more I learned the more it fit. The more lights came on and the more I was able to understand what I had been dealing with.

It is NOT an excuse, an explanation at best. I learned that it goes much deeper than just denial. There is no cure and therapy rarely happens and the NPD does not realize they have a problem. It is a disorder. They will not ever understand that their behavior is wrong or that the way they think is wrong. They are actually not capable. It like trying to explain to a man with no legs that he can walk, he can't. An NPD person is not capable of understanding.

That does not mean they don't know what they are doing, they do, they just don't care because what they need or want comes before all else. It is more than just justification or rationalizing, they really truly believe it. They can't take any negative views about themselves or look at themselves honestly, again, not capable. They project all the negative aspects about themselves on to other people and that one person is usually a person close to them and if they have children, it is most likely the child.

They have the control of a parent, is the perfect situation to dump the negative emotions on. You can't fight back and if you are raised that way, you think it is normal, until you realize and understand it is not.

She will never want your help. In her mind she is not the problem, you are and that will not change. If you are not there she will find someone else to be the scapegoat but she would rather have you. She has been using you for a long time and they don't want to start again with a new person, that takes time and work and they are basically lazy people. They want the easiest, quickest way to reject their negative feelings.

My mother also has a history of lying, theft and involving me in those situations as a child as well. She made me believe I was her friend/buddy and that we had a special secret when in reality she just wanted to dump her emotional baggage on to me.

She can point a finger at someone else and call them a thief but if you call her out on the times she stole then there is a whole list of reasons why she did it and not one of them will make it her fault. Ever.

They will turn any and all situations around to make sure the blame never ever lands on them. My mother was a master at this. She would have the entire thing planned out before she did it so that if caught, someone else was going to be the one in the hot seat.

I swear if she lent me $5 a year ago and I didn't pay it back and she got caught stealing $5 today she would blame me because she was $5 short a year ago because of me so the whole thing was my fault. This is how they think before and after anything that will place blame on them.

There will never be sincere apology for anything. Most of my mothers were while she was screaming at me. She does not apologize because she does not think she is wrong, she can't think that way, she is not capable.

I understand, I am not either and all the ways I was taught to feel, behave and react were wrong and they always felt wrong but she was my mother and the only example I had. I made many mistakes because of that over the years. I am not blaming her, I did them, but I understand now and that is why I have removed her from my life.

She is not going to change, ever. To her is it is a game and she plans on wining at all costs. Hurting me or others around me does not matter to her. The only way to not lose was not to play the game anymore.

It was not easy. After I went no contact she told many lies and I was alienated from some family as they believe her. I am really the only one that sees all the lies, games, fake attitudes etc. Everyone else thinks she is a wonderful person and sadly that is usually how it goes. There is one scapegoat and that was me. She even tried to turn my children on me.

Now I still speak to my kids, they were not swayed by her stories or lies of how horrible I am.

I don't regret going no contact. It was the second best decision I ever made in my life with sobriety being the first.

Spacegoat

That is a very helpful response Gracie I can't say it makes me feel any better but I can really relate to it. Up to and including the kids part, and there is not much I can do now.

At least we are not alone, right? Kinda thing. Yeah thats her alright, that sounds familiar. There is comfort in familiarity they say, but really theres not when it's like that as we know.


I decided to go no contact once I left school and got a steady job going. I felt guilty but I knew they were holding me back, I knew I had suffered but had my whole life ahead of me.


Ironically it was my son's birth that got me back in talking to them. I had been with my ex for a few years and she flipped out on me one night while drunk about not meeting them.


She said I must be ashamed of her for not introducing her to them. Little did she know it was the other way around, but I didn't say that then. I have never talked about any of this.


That wasn't so bad then, just the occasional visit and they are always on their best behavior when other people are around, my mother at least. That always sickened me about her.


A big fake overly sweet and innocent appearance when somebody else is in the house, and the minute they have left or even just turned their backs she would have something to say.


A small thing I know, but always made me uneasy when someone is within hearing distance and she is whispering or making crass remarks about them. It poses me deep questions.


Or used to, I should say. I can't be the only one to see through her, I know that. People say she has a hard life but as someone who knows her better than anyone else, I'm not sure.


Certainly she had a few hard years under my father after she 'lost' all our money (again) but so did I, and after decades of deliberation about it- I was the only innocent of the three.

happybeingme

I don't have any personal experience either but I will share that my cousin was molested by her dad and she told me that getting involved in a support group of incest survivors and it was a huge help. It's my understanding that sexual assault in childhood can permanently twist the way a person has intimate relationships. Please get help. You deserve it.

Be sure to share often on the Adult children forum here. A lot of us have suffered great abuse and neglect with no active addiction in the house. We still qualify to be there. I am a recovering alcoholic with an NPD mom also.

GracieLou

It didn't make me feel better but it did give me validation and that was what I needed to start the journey. Once I was able to absorb the information and find others that had similar or in some cases the exact same experiences, I went from victim to survivor.

No, we are not alone and that made a huge difference for me. For most if not all of my life I felt I was to blame for the bad relationship I had with my mother. I know now that this was her intent. Since she can't accept or comprehend any negative feelings they had to be placed on someone and that was me.

I am not saying that I don't have mine own issues, I do. I am an alcoholic and that is not her fault, I am not blaming her for that or my life because of it.

I had to accept that she is a narcissist which was hard to do. For many years I had hope that we would one day have that mother daughter relationship that I see so many other woman have but that hope is gone now and I grieved about that for many months after I went no contact.

It is better now and not having to deal with her has made my life simpler.

I felt guilt as well and to be honest it still tries to creep up on me now and then. I have to remember that I did the best thing for me and my life. Guilt is something that always was a tool she used to get her way. She would remind me of the things she had done for me as a way of keeping me in the loop of her control over me.

I have children and I would do anything for them and I don't want to be paid back. I do things for them because I love them, that is all. I love them unconditionally. My mother does not think this way. I owe her for giving birth and every single thing she has done for me since that day, whether it was brushing my hair when I was two to driving to me to work when I was fifteen to buying me a fast food sandwich when I was forty. There is no end to her tally board of pay back markers. There was always conditions to her love. If you did what she wanted or had planned, she loved me. If I didn't, I was a horrible, ungrateful daughter. It was like that my whole life.

I learned I had to accept her for what she was and continue to have her in my life and learn how to deal with it all or accept it and remove her from my life, I chose the later. I cannot maintain that type of relationship, it is insanity to me. It threatened my peace and serenity, it threaten me.

So I made the decision that was best for me which was to no longer play the game.

I totally understand this. I didn't want my mother to meet people either. Not only was she so fake I wanted to puke but she would steal any and all people in my life to get them to her side of the playing field. She would, in some way, turn them against me.

I never had any relationship with others that she did not have her hand in there somewhere and if the relationship ended for whatever reason she was there to pick up their pieces, never mine. She maintained relationships with these people and again "See I told you it was her, there is something wrong with her" etc. She just made them part of her life and used them, just as she uses everyone.

I always felt guilt for exposing anyone to her. Of course they were not treated how I was treated so they did not see or felt what I did. Again, making it look as though I was crazy.

I get this too, mine was the same exact way. Perfectly sweet on the outside and a monster on the inside. That is why they say that a narcissist wears a mask. 99% of the people that see them, see the mask. It is usually only the scapegoat and sometimes the spouse that see the real person under all that, the people that are the closest to them are the ones that know the truth but try to convince the 99%, it is impossible.

When my extended family turned on me I didn't even try to explain. I knew it was no use and on top of that, I was doing what was best for me, I don't need to take people with me, that is her scenario, not mine.

It would have turned into a tug of war with "She said, She said" and I was frankly done playing. I simply stepped off the field and never looked back.

You most certainly can be the only person to see it. I was the only one for decades to see it but again, I blamed myself for it.

I know my mother had a hard life but that is not an excuse. As I said before, they know what they are doing, they just don't care because what they need comes first, at all costs, it does not matter who they hurt and at times they enjoy hurting others because it is a game to them. If you walk away crying, sad, guilty, hurt, angry...They won. They have managed to turn everything you feel about them back on to you. That is their goal. They can't take the the sadness, anger, guilt, shame or hurt, it must be placed on others.

It is like playing hot potato, they will never be the one holding it, it must be disposed of and quickly. And it does not matter what they have to do, what lies they have to tell or who they have to hurt to make that happen.

I can tell you it was not easy. I tried many times over my life to remove her or at least find some healthy distance but the guilt ate at me and I always was dragged back into the insanity. Either by my hand or hers.

This time I was sober. I was out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) and I could see it all clearly for the first time. Understanding NPD and getting validation that I was truly not alone, made a huge difference. They were the two pieces I was missing. Once I saw it for what it really was, I could make that conscience decision to go no contact.

Spacegoat

Wow Gracie this is all really too familiar. I'm pretty sure now that this is what I have been dealing with.

Or not dealing with more like. I did not want to face up to any of this stuff at all, I was running from it.

I put a lot of work in on myself year ago but I believed I was mainly trying to focus on the future tense.

The terse relationship with my ex for example. I resolved a lot of issues that centered around my father.


However there were many 'questions' about my mother. Really I don't think I wanted to confront them.

That is possibly why I kept reverting back to the drink. She is definitely a trigger, and she makes me ill.

Of course, she has always denied every little thing regardless of how softly I have tried to approached it.

Things about her I know to be true. That is very unhelpful for someone trying to make sense of the past.


Having her involved in my recovery, let alone in my life has all but made said recovery impossible for me.


I can see that now. I had a fresh start once, several years ago now. I decided to give her another chance.

I trusted her on a big transaction. I knew that I was putting my faith in her but I was hoping for the best.

Probably I wasn't thinking very straight, because I knew it would be really bad for me if she let me down.

I trusted her with everything basically. Well, she really did let me down and it was worse than I thought.


On the other hand, it has confirmed everything to me about her that I have always been confused about.

I don't know if thats a good or a bad thing, but it has rocked my world and confirmed my deepest fears.

I had a post typed up about the details of that, but I lost it. So basically, I am back at square one again.

I thought that to admit this stuff, would be admitting I'm a victim, thats why I have resisted it so long.

GracieLou

I ran from it too and I did so in the bottle. When I was sober about a year is when most of it came to light. I could no longer not see it.

After being around the woman in AA and feeling true unconditional love for the first time it made me realize that I never knew what it was and I didn't know how to give it. I was so afraid and I didn't trust anyone because I compared them all to my mother, especially woman. I assumed they were like her and would either want something from me or would throw my past mistakes in my face. They did neither and it was really an eye opener for me.

I understand this completely. My mother is he same exact way. No matter what I tried to discuss or how I tried to approach it she has a wall up that cannot be breached. If she even thinks that a topic or a comment is going to show her in a bad light then she either goes to attack/blame mode or she goes to silent treatment mode. She cannot face anything she has done that is deemed to appear negative.

Of course if you are to praise her, the topic and admiration can continue for hours. She is like pig to mud if someone is telling her she is smart, talented and how wonderful she is. There is no limit on those types of conversation.

It is always about her and it always has to be positive or she shuts it down.

As far as the past goes, I have let it go. I am not going to get my answers, I am not going to get an explanation and I am not going to get an apology. She is not capable. I had to move on from that and it was hard. That was also part of the grieving process. Knowing I would never have those answered was rough but I had to accept it or carry it around and I was damn tired of carrying it around.

It would have for me as well. The first year I basically ignored her and for some reason, I give credit to God's Grace, she was not sabotaging which was her usual MO. She left me alone for once and I did not engage with her at all. There were times she would ask how I was and I just answered fine and went doing what ever I was doing. I went to work, meetings, shopping etc and I did not talk with her much. I wanted to be left alone to work on me and my recovery.

Once I was a year sober I could really see her for what she was. Having her living with me was starting to strain my peace and serenity and I had to ask her to move. At that point I didn't know about NPD. I discovered it during the processing of having her move out. It was a long three months..LOL

When I was drinking I would have LOVED to be a victim. I could have blamed my whole life on her and maybe even the fact that I drank.

God's timing brought it to me when I was sober and I am so grateful for that. I could see my own issues and deal with them without her interference and later when I had a clear head I was able to see the real issue I was dealing with.

I was a victim and if I continued to deal with her and let her manipulate and control my life I would still be a victim. I am now a survivor as I have removed the abuser and the abuse from my life. I can move on and live my life without guilt, shame, anger or the emotional abuse that she placed on me for most of my life. I am free, I survived.

I learned a lot about myself as well. I had some of the traits of NPD but not because I have it, because it was what I learned growing up, it was the only example I had. I have worked on them and I have made progress. They still creep up at times but I can see them now and change my behavior.

I think that is the best part of the entire journey. Removing her from my life was only the start. The real gift was being able to change and grow and I would never have been able to do that if I was not sober and I had not gone NC.

Spacegoat

Gracie I think you are the only person who understands me in this world

GracieLou

Actually, there are quite a few of us, more than I ever imagined. We are not alone and that gives us validation.

I have met two people now in real life that have an NPD mother. One is another woman and the other man. We may have different stories or struggles but we understand each other.

I compare it a lot to AA. The other members get me, they understand and I don't feel alone with my alcoholism or my struggles with sobriety. We are not alone and just knowing that has made a huge difference in my life.

Dee74

Thanks for your posts here Gracie. Powerful stuff and awesome recovery

D

happybeingme

Gracie- you are the best.

Stratman- in the stickies on the Adult children forum are some links with forums and websites for children of NPD parents.

Spacegoat

I'l check them out when I am feeling up to it Happy. Thanks, there does seem to be some parallels with this and addiction.


I did a little bit of reading around NPD abuse, it's heavy going. I mentioned in another thread about your input here Gracie.


This does sort of feel like a breakthrough for me of some sort. Based on what you said I have felt a little of my anger subside.


And a little bit of the confusion. It is quite sad though I must admit. It's good to hear that you are now recovering now at least.


I never though it possible based on the level of misunderstanding. I imagine it has been very frustrating, it has been for me too.


It doesn't look like I will be able to sort this out with her by any means. I suppose its just a matter of acceptance? It's pretty hard.

happybeingme

Stratman- I think the acceptance is a process. The single biggest help for me was to go no contact with my mum. I also told my sister's they aren't to talk about her to me either. Only when or if a life or death situation comes up will I get involved. And that's only for my sister that I would do that. Because I really wouldn't care if the woman fell off the face of the earth. Like I said it is a process.

My parents divorced when I was young and my dad is an alcoholic as well. So, in a sense I never had any parenting. It is like being an orphan only somehow weird and twisted because I know who gave birth to me, we cohabited, but I was really on my own to figure out life. I have a few friends who call it "growing up feral". It's true.

happybeingme

Double post

GracieLou

It is very much like addiction. I read the book "Will I ever be good enough?" and they talk about that very thing. A lot of it is identical, the difference is that an alcoholic or addict that gets help and works recovery will eventually see the traits of selfishness, manipulation etc. The NPD person won't, they can't.

That is why they rarely seek therapy or if by some odd chance in a million they do, it does not work as they cannot process the concept that the feelings and emotions they have stem from self and not other people.

They can't accept that idea. It is not in them. That is why it is a personality disorder. It is not denial. They lack the ability to understand it or comprehend it. They cannot look into themselves, it all must be deflected elsewhere.

Again, that is not an excuse, as they know what they are doing but they feel they must do it to be able to cope with life as THEY see it.

For me, knowledge of NPD was my first step. Then came acceptance and the grief. The grief stages over an NPD relationship are the same as when a person dies but in a different order.

Unlike an actual death, Acceptance comes first and I went back to it many times. Then comes denial, bargaining, anger and depression.

I didn't even realize I was grieving until my sponsor suggested it and she was right.

By the time I got the knowledge of NPD, I already had been through the anger and bargaining, I had been doing that all my life. The denial faded quickly as it became more apparent the more I read about NPD. I never was really depressed about it. I was sad, I felt the loss of something I never had but always wanted and hoped for. I was left with acceptance again.

My mother is not going to change, she is not capable.

Now there are people that have learned to cope and deal with their NPD parent, child, spouse etc. In other words they learn how to play the game. To detach and deflect. To not feel the guilt, anger or shame that an NPD person attempts to place on them. It can be done.

All truths be told, I didn't want to do it. I didn't have it in me. It was to draining to even think about learning those kinds of coping skills and I learned, I didn't have to.

This is my life and I am allowed, without guilt, to remove toxic people from my life. I only get one and I refuse to spend it living my life having to deal with all that just to keep her in it. The cons outweighed the pros. Well, there was not any pros but for some maybe there is.

They may have family, young children, siblings and other circumstances in their life that they feel the need to maintain contact. I did not have those things.

I SO understand this! I also feel like an orphan but today I am okay with that for the most part. It stings when I see or hear others talk about their mom or dad. It stings when I see movies or shows on TV that depict a loving, caring & protecting relationship with ones parents.

But I have loving people in my life and I have my children. Today I try and spend as much time with my daughter as I can. I want us to have what I never had. It is a learning process.

I have woman that I can call to talk things out with, they are my sober sisters.

I never had a sister and I can tell you that they have shown me more love in the last two years then I have felt over the last 44. I am grateful and I am far better off with them in my life then even one day with my mother. I would not trade them for her. I don't say that in anger, it is just the truth of acceptance.

happybeingme

I attempted to keep my mom in but the harder I tried to communicate my boundaries the harder she stomped all over them. It was a game for her until the day I finally told her she drained me dry and nothing was left for and that it was not healthy for me to have her in my life anymore.

Like you I have looked elsewhere. I have a great husband, terrific son's, and some of the best nieces and nephews on earth. That's where I focus my love and attention. I have two sisters but they are extremely ill in their own way so I carefully keep them in my life but their children are my main focus. I can't be their everything but they know they have unconditional love and acceptance here and my home will always be a haven for them.

JustAYak

Sorry, I don't have anything to add but I really wanted to comment and say that I love this saying...I had never heard it before. Suits my life perfectly...

Spacegoat

Same here guys, based on the definition happybeingme gave. Hey so do people hate us for that??? Yeah my father worked 12 hours a day during my early childhood as described on page 1, so he was only really ever around at night time.

I don't know exactly where my mother was back then. But she was never at home or where she was suppose to be. Then when we moved back here my father would work away mon-fri for the first few years, so no parenting whatsoever once again.

Don't get me wrong I wasn't complaining then. My mother never had any interest in homemaking or cooking let alone in our development. She would get onto me if the school asked her to but thats about it, I realize now that was to cover her own ass.

Then when my father found out she had run a 'business' into the ground, lost our house because she was hiding letters from him, forged a load of checks in his name in the shop next door, conned an old lady out of her savings the very next door down,


borrowed money from his own mother under false presences and behind his back etc, etc (she has always denied all of this and still does, even though it's common knowledge and I was privvy to it all) he stopped working away then. That was even worse.

Like, the exact opposite. Extreme discipline, constant arguments, domestic violence, constant tension in the house I would be listening in to their conversations you know. Well anyway I was a teenager by then so I used to just head out as I had always done.

It was always on my mind. So yeah, nobody looked after me when I was a kid I basically grew up feral and then when I was in my mid teens my father wanted to control and restrict me in a heavy handed and disciplinary/authoritarian fashion! Wtf lol.

Not good anyway. They should never have been together in the first place I have always thought, the again thats probably my fault too of course. Gracie you do know a lot about this. I'm still trying to take it all in, but I am very grateful to you guys.

Spacegoat

x2 Happy. Except that mine has twisted it to appear the other way around. I think her and my brother were jealous of me. Now, I have nowhere to go and nothing left to give.