shestruggles

Hey all;

There have been a few debates around here as to whether people on sub or methadone are really 'in recovery', and as a result, some buzzing about whether a person on sub or methadone should be allowed to speak at an NA meeting, or even chair one. I've had a tough time explaining my position, and today I read this:

Right on. I was cheered on and welcomed with open arms, congratulated at meetings, welcome to share my heart out, if I was ABSTINENT. That, in my mind was BS. Just 'cause I'm not using, doesn't mean I'm 'in recovery'.I could not do dope, do my best to get to a meeting, blah, blah, blah - but, who was I kidding? I wasn't in recovery...

Since being on the sub, perhaps I'm technically missing abstinence, but I'm working the rest like my life depends on it. (Um, b/c it does). Quitting cold turkey (100's of times) has never changed my lifestyle or thinking. Sub allows me to do this. I see my doctor, I pass drug tests, I go to councellig, I've completly overhauled my entire living environment. I am IN recovery.

Of course, not according to many, right here on SR. I'm just subbing one drug for another, I'm high (but still welcome to observe a meeting), I am destined to go back out.

No I'm not. I'm IN recovery, whether your interpretations of NA literature say so or not. It's a process, folks, you all know that. Some of us choose different paths, but as long as we are headed towards real recovery, what's the problem?

There is NO REASON to hide the fact that you are on suboxone or methadone, as I know for a fact several members here are. My best guess is they do so in order to be accepted with the NA crowd here, and avoid critisism about their recovery.

No debate intended here...just getting it out...

Thanks for listening, all!

Phinneas

None needed. I applaud your recovery.

The other side of this coin, for me, is seeing others be absintant from drugs and/or alcohol and not work on a new way of living. That's a recipe for disaster, I think. And I say that based on my previous experience doing just that.

I support anyone doing the work it takes to create a new, better life. And many times, that means digging in the dirt.

Hugs,

phinny

Dan

Big time.
Some of us tend to forget what it's like to have dirty fingernails.

Being primarily, but not exclusively an alcoholic, I read with great interest the suboxone debates, for lack of a better term, if only for the fact that it kinda gives me a fresh eyes perspective on the crap I encounter in my home fellowship, namely the whole nauseating, real alcoholic sagas.

Mistaken beliefs...
... are even more so when I project them onto a fellow sufferer.

Gooch

the state of being in recovery ...

is a transcendental state at best

takes all I got to keep on transcending...

then some days I have moments where I'm blessed because I just do it.

Blake

THe only person that can tell you if you are "really in recovery" is yourself....it doesn't matter what other people think, recovery is an inside job.

For me, there have been times when I would think, "I don't like so and so and they are going to be at this particular meeting, so I'm not going" or "I can't do NA b/c I hate religion and everyonr there is a bible thumping freak..." In all actuality, that is my addict talking to me in my own voice to try to get me to push myself away from my recovery. What my disease wants is me to find any fault I can with NA and raationalize any reason for me to quit this "12 step ********" b/c my disease wants me dead but it will settle for miserable.

Keep on keeping on,
-Blake

shestruggles

Thanks all..interesting comments.

For me, I take the 12 steps very seriously. I have looked into other approaches, and the 12 steps are the only ones that really make sense to me (finally). 10 years in NA and I honestly never really even accepted step 1, until I realzed that revocery was more than simply not doing dope or drinking. I couldn't see that until I was on suboxone and able to get a comprehensive look at what's going on in my mind, my soul, my beliefs...

I don't knock NA, I cherish it. Parts of it. I just have to do it my way. I know that sounds dangerous to some, but I mean, I have to really work on accepting my addiction and stopping the behaviour, turning it over to a HP. In a bigger sense than just suffering thru wds and praying for help, saying, Ill never do this **** again...

Of course, I do (and am )tapering off the sub, there is no avoiding that. I have learned that I will have to stay on certain medications, though, and again, find myself up against a wall with several NA members.

You're right, I don't really give a crap what others think, but even the response to this post - a PM from someone, asking me not to 'out them' for being on sub. (BTW I would NEVER do that) - It's just wrong. People can say what they want, claim there is no 'dismissal' or seconmd class treatment of those on sub or methadone, but we all know that's not true. I can read through people's carefully worded, but insulting posts, I can quote some PMs that are nauseating, but that's not the purpose of me writing here.

You can be part (an ACTIVE part ) of NA on sub or methadone. If the people in your local group treat you like crap - don't get mad - just don't go;find another group or another form of support. Know that there are many of out here, working our assess off, embracing the principles of NA and succeeding, despite the dissaproval of others..

Later ~SS

Time2Surrender

"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using" It seems to me you have that.Welcome.

godsonmyside

Just keep doing you, No Matter what others say or think.

Peace,
Todd J.

REZ

"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using." I agree. And I am glad you are going to NA meetings and coming to SR. I would welcome you if you were in my group. That being said, it would probably be a good idea to not talk about being subnoxone in NA meetings. Talk to your sponsor about being on subnoxone. It makes many addicts uncomfortable to talk about taking drugs, even those prescribed by a doctor. Try to talk about things that all people can relate to, such as the steps or recovery from addiction.

That's just my opinion.

Paulie

You go girl!!!

angelgirl

Originally Posted by shestruggles
.
Know that there are many of out here, working our assess off, embracing the principles of NA and succeeding, despite the dissaproval of others..
YEAH,,, I must say,, SS, you sure know how to tell it like it is,,...
Just sad that it even needs to be said.. But it did..

I just don't understand the attitude. Ok, I understand it, what I mean is, I dont agree with it..

Thanks for listening,,

Love and PRAYERS....
Becky

Time4Change

It seems you're really battling this internally, SS. I'm so sorry for that. You need to put your recovery first and stop worrying about what others think, or how others are conducting their recovery. I did that in the beginning, I would kind of close my ears to some NA members' shares, but kept coming back. Before I knew it, I had trained myself to find the similaries in other members, not the differences. I choose to keep personal things about my recovery to myself and my sponser. Some members are comfortable sharing about anything and everything. I'm not. Although, I have a women's group once a week that I'm much more open when sharing.

Personally, I work intensively with my addiction therapist, have an additional therapist, jumped in with both feet with NA, make coffee, bring cookies, give rides, am treasurer of a meeting, go at least five times a week, socialize, and I frickin' LOVE it! I'm a Sub patient and take Effexor and Wellbutrin. Is it anyone's business in NA that I take those? Hell no. Do I tell my sponser? You bet. Does it matter what the other members of NA may think if they find out? Not a bit. If you're truly working the program and steps, they'll accept you with open arms. They'll see your heart. If I constantly shared what an a-hole my ex-husband was, they'd probably start to shut down on me. They would see that I had an unhealthy, unproductive obsession with that subject.

Good luck to you. I really, truly believe NA will work if you work it. If some in your meeting have a problem with you taking Sub, they're misinformed and it's their problem (and they don't sound like they're truly working their NA program, if they're worrying about someone else's recovery ... that's a BIG no-no!) Don't let it get in the way of your recovery.

Butterflys

Hi shestruggles,
LTNS, are you proud of your efforts? do you believe your working your program with everything you have?
I left AA years ago due to some people thinking they're program was better. and I was not doing it right. but I was doing everything I was sopposed to do. and I was feeling good about it. I had been clean for a whole year!
of corse when I left, I felt more excepted by my old druggies and went back to it!
This time around, I used a totally unexcepted method.
I dont go to meetings! I study and try to work the steps to the best of my knoledge. and I come in here or other places on the internet for support.
using this method, I have been clean for 4 years! my longest streach ever. I dont recomend this method. I'm just saying you gotta do whatever it takes. and no 1 addict has all the answers. Just be true to yourself!!!!
Butterflys
P.S.
Is sugar, nicotine & caffine not drugs?
we all do something!

shestruggles

Thanks Butterflys - I like your approach. That's kind of my point, I guess. I am working harder than ever, putting everything I have into recovery for the first time in 10 years...not necessarily 'by the book', but it's working. As far as I'm concerned, I'm sober and enthusiastic about my recovery....not to mention learning to deal with life on life's terms.

T4C - You had a very good point, in that what I am experiencing may be a conflict within myself. I have to learn to let go and just accept that there will always be people who critisize, question and disagree with what I am doing. Recovery is a not about what other people think - as has been said before, what other people think of me is none of my business. Easy to say, tough to practice,....I'm learning

Usually, I'm a pretty tough cookie, but when it comes down to it, I get frustrated and hurt when people 'dismiss' or disagree with my approach to recovery. Like most people, I want acceptance and approval, and it hurts that I've gotten so little of that from NA (the approval, at least - acceptance is a given b/c I have the desire to recover).

But then again, if I really wanted approval and accaptance I would just keep quiet and/or lie about being on suboxone & that's not something I'm comfortable doing. I have nothing to be ashamed of, and sometimes I want to talk about it because it has helped me put my life in perspective in a way I've never been able to before.

Overall, I think usually when I'm upset about 'other people', that's really just a sign that's something is wrong with me. I say f-it, I don't care what anyone thinks, but then start a thread whining about the lack of love for sub users...see the conflict?

Thanks guys, for letting me air my thoughts, as I have learned something about myself in doing so. Geez, why does my brain gotta be so complicated?

Let's keep it simple - just for today, I will work my program vigorously, I will take delight in every sober moment, and cherish those around me.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.

Much love to all you floating around this special place in cyberspace...our SR!!!

Gooch

this is usually the case for me when I'm extremely sensitive to what other people are saying or presenting to me.

we look to other people for validation . seems our natural ability to validate ouselves hasn't developed properly, so we rely too much on others.

because you want to be able to resolve your own truth in the present moment and lying is unnacceptable to us when we become aware of how adiction has allowed us to lie to ourselves for all that time.

Nope you don't have anything to be ashamed of and you have come to resolve this for yourself! awesome job at taking responsability for your own paths and accepting yourself for who you are.

lol .. I used to say ... a mind is a terrible thing ...at least mine is"

That'll work!

Butterflys

I'm a meth addict,
but I'm courious. I've heard before that if heroine addicts just quit that they can actually die detoxing without the medicine. Is that true? if it is, than I dont understand why they would give you hell for it!
sorry if I sound stupid, it was not my drug!
Butterflys

angelgirl

Butterflies,,

I don't believe one will die from a H withdrawal,, But ya know what,, I would NEVER, EVER tell anyone to do ANY detox, (taper) on their own with out ever
having consulted a doctor, because we do NOT know who si writing on the otherside of the computer,, People could have a heart, kidney, liver, or really anything wrong with them, and not really know it, especially when using drugs, because opiates (and other drugs,) can cover up any pain you may have going on in your body,, so they may not even know anything is wrong, or anything that may be going on in their body,, Withdrawal from many things can cause blood pressure changes...

So this is why I ALWAYS RECOMMEND everyone that is going to detox themselves that they see a doctor first...

Thanks for listening,,
Love ya all,
Becky

RRecovery

The following comes from Narcotics Anonymous World Board Trustees Bulletin #29...


Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

Gooch

This is one of those Big WE's that little i wasn't necessarily asked about.

unfortunately, as politely as this statement was written, there a couple of inherant problems with it.

1) NA "groups" .. I have never been confronted by a group .. ultimately someone acting as "the voice" of the group has to "encourage these members" and since the 3rd tradition states that the only requirement for "member ship" is a desire... there is a conflict here. None of us can measure anyone elses desire, so how do we hide this "encouragement" behind the "group" acting as the voice for the program? I thought the program was the steps? "our program is a set of principles written so simply that we can follow them in our daily lives"

2) encourage to participate only by listening .. they may have well as written it : discourage from particpating .. your membership is being subjectively reviewed here on requirements that don't align wit the 3rd tradition.

unfortunately that is exactly what it does. How many of us have felt embarrassed or alienated when a well meaning AA member told us we would have to limit our sharing to our troubles with alcohol? ( And as an extremely grateful member of NA I can appreciate those gratefull AA'ers wanting to preserve the AA message)

And as a result we bifurcate the mesage.. all are welcome the only requirement is a desire.. we'd rather you didn't share unless you are abstinant from all drugs .. I guess all those late winters early springs when I was suffering from aseasonal depression and felt like I was doing my recovery wrong because I was miserable and refused to take an antidepressant, I was actually doing it the NA way? And those kind hearted brave dually diagnosed souls who had been members for a decade more than me and shared about their success with a combination of the steps, an informed, physican, sponsorship, and good counseling who shared about it in meetings were ruining the message?

Spiritual principles are never in conflict.

I'm going to go out on a limb here with an analogy ... The steps and traditions have been working all along .. can we agree on that?

When I was a service technician and we got a service bulletin on a product it was because there was a flaw or malfunction in it.

If there's nothing wrong with NA why does the WSO keep trying to fix it?

Dan

Gooch...
Yeah, man.