JayStuart

Hi All, I'm fairly new to recovery (100 days today), and as a lifelong Athiest, often find it difficult to transpose the word 'god' into something tangible. Quite surprisingly, the whole AA concept is not as rigid on 'god' as I expected - something that kept me away for a long time. However I do go to meetings that are known to be more liberal, although there are always the evangelical types. I'm OK with that if it works for them.

To date, to resolve a meaningful 'Higher Power', I have viewed the Fellowship collective as the closest thing to a HP as I'm likely to get . This is a genuine gratitude, and I am starting to forge some solid acquaintances.

I have a sponsor who, although is not a Christian, does like to see the Big Book as Gospel (for wont of a better term). We are doing the steps. Step 1 was a no-brainer, as I had been living with this thought long before I got sober, and Step two was also of no impediment for me. However we talked about Step 3 yesterday, and I'm starting to feel this this is where it's about to come to an end.

Quite simply, I cannot see how this step can possibly be relevant to a 'godless' person. If my interpretation of god, for the sake of being involved, is my Higher Power of the Fellowship (or 'Group Of Drunks' as the oft-repeated sloganeering goes), I cannot possibly see how turning my will and my life over to other mortal humans is logical.

As Alcoholics, we are not rendered forever incapable of looking after ourselves.

We do not, and should not, enter into a mindset that absolves us from all personal responsibility. For me, I could not have stayed sober without the inclusion of the Fellowship into my life, but to give absolute control over to the collective is absurd.

Not that the Big Book is telling us to do so... it's about turning over to 'god'. One of the many instances of the word that I am discovering has no plausible alternative outside of a monotheistic context.

I'm interested to hear how other members have worked through this, particularly with a sponsor who is reluctant to introduce alternative texts into the dialogue.

Taking5

You do not turn your will and life over to your HP in step 3. You make a decision to do so.

The actual turning of your will and life over to your HP is when you work steps 4 through 12, using (in your case) the group as your higher power.

This can be done, you are not the first atheist to struggle with this, many have made it.

JayStuart

A decision is a formal pronouncement that is followed by an action. In this instance, I cannot, in all honesty to myself, make a decision (step 3) if the action (step 4) is unlikely - given my present thoughts on the subject.

I'm aware of this, and clearly interested in sticking to the program if possible, else I wouldn't have registered to make this post

desypete

i made a decision to turn my care and life over to the care of aa and its way of life of trying to do good
its a simple step just make a decision and move on to the next steps 4 and 5 will really start to show some results after you have done them, when you have completed the steps its only then can you start to learn how it will all work out in living your life daily in a changed manner from how you have lived

when you do the steps and get to number 12
it doesnt say the end.

its just the beginning of a new way to live

try not to duck out of doing step 12 as for me its the key of them all, when i got into service work and started to help others it was only then did i see how these steps and the fellowship of aa really do work
and for me its nothing about god, its a new way of living.

ie changing from a selfish brat full of me me me and wanting my own way on everything, to someone who can think of others and help others and try to be kind and not greedy etc.
its a hell of journey and one that will never end for me as i grow and make mistakes and get things wrong and still try to get things my way but i just try not to when i see i am doing it : )

so dont listen to god believers who say you must as there are no musts in anything its them and there will there trying to pass on nothing else

JayStuart

With all respect, 'just make a decision and move on' doesn't sound like sage advice. Turning our lives over to a group of people (or making a decision to do so) implies a complete powerlessness over our own lives. It's fairly clear in step 1 that the suggested self-clarity is to admit that we are powerless over alcohol.

I can see how Step 3 is readily accepted by those with faith, however slight that belief may be - a supernatural entity of the mind's own making can be assigned all manner of tasks and roles. For me, this luxury of naivety isn't possible.

And there's no 'ducking out' of anything... yet. In fact, I already do 'service' in some small ways, by opening and setting up two different venues a week, staying in contact with a couple of people who are struggling daily (despite them having more sobriety than me), and I have also started touching base with a person new to AA with quite a lot of issues. I also entered into AA quite differently to many - via an 11th Step program that I was doing long before actually getting sober. Please don't misunderstand my thread as attempting to duck out or make excuses. If I didn't want to do the steps, I would simply say so, and just continue to attend meetings only. I'm very much trying to sort this out in my own mindset, but I refuse to pay lip service to my sponsor or anyone else, just to roll on through to the next step. There's nothing to gain in being dishonest with myself.

JayStuart

Here are a few alternative Step 3's that I can get closer to

** Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.

** We turn to our fellow men & women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

** We decided to accept what they said and act on their suggestions


The second & third I can embrace. However it's not 'by the book' and therefore will be determined as irrelevant, because

every single word is written in a very specific order for it to work .

Not my statement, but my sponsors.

desypete

are you powerless over me or can you control me ?
are you powerless over kids dying or can you control it ?
there are so many things in this world that no one can control or change the wisdom comes in knowing when i can change something or not, and also is it a change for the good or is it me trying to change something just so i can get my own way
i have to examine myself and my actions daily and i am amazed at times when i believe i am doing somthing good or being passionate about something that actualy its me using yet anyother one of my many talents of trying to get my own way

if you accept your powerless over the booze then where is the problem in accepting your also powerless over other things in this world ?

i made a decision to let others help me, i made a decision to try a life of change instead of sticking to my own way

once i made that decsion then i was ready to move on to step 4 and onwards

i dont believe in a god so i had to find something i could believe in with all my heart and aa and the people in aa fit that bill for me

i believe i walked into the doors of an aa room with a drink problem and those people helped me and carry on helping me
if i would of stayed at home and not been in aa i would of carried on drinking myself to death

so there is no argument for me aa works but i have to work it

biminiblue

I would suggest finding a sponsor who will "allow" you to use one of those alternate phrases: really it is your program to work how you see fit. - OR - try believing for a little while. Try prayer. What's the worst that can happen? Since no one can prove the existence of God nor the non existence - it really doesn't matter, right?

You will find something happens.

Boleo

After working step 3 more than a couple of dozen times, I started to see it in a whole new light. I now see it as making a decision to stop living my life based on making decisions. How, is that possible?

By living a principle driven life. When faced with decisions, I now start by asking myself if there a principle that I should be practicing in place of rationalizing my decision. Principles such as honesty, commitment and benevolence are what I now consider preconceived standards. That is to say that I now have rules of engagement that I can follow in place of rationalization.

If that sounds far-fetched or dangerous, try learning something about Zen or Taoism and you will see that there is nothing new about living without judgement and expectations.

CousinA

What Boleo said!

I had a conversation with a sponsor many years ago that went something like this...

Allan: "I don't believe in god"
Jim: "That's fine. Then stop playing him'

And it was as simple as that. Well, almost. I love the part in the Big Book about the actor wanting to be the director who is trying to arrange everything. That made it really clear for me.

-allan

desypete

i would of said
you stop playing god in telling me that i am playing god

fini

Jay,
i think i get where you're at, and no, it's not simple.
it's not simple or easy for me, and i am not an atheist. you're making the assumption that a person who, for lack of a better phrase, 'has faith, has an easy time with this.
#3 is hanging me up big time, and for me, it's not about the "living life on life's terms', or thinking i'm in control of everything or that i need to be. or want to be.

i quite get that there's tons i have no control over. lots of stuff i cannot 'will'. and that even my so-called 'free will' is plenty conditioned by all kinds of stuff.


every time i've brought this topic up with someone, the responses revolve around the "big stuff", the stuff i have no issues with. the "universe unfolding as it does", or the difference between what i can change and what i cannot.
and every time i press on about the daily stuff, about some guidance of how, just how and why would i turn life and will over when the HP-of-my-understanding has absolutely no interest in whether i decide to see my friend later today or not. when my "HP" includes me having a will, and the ability and sometimes struggle to use that responsibly.
it is not HP's will for me to make my bed or not; it is mine.
is that the kind of stuff you're talking about?

and yes, a few people have told me: you just have to make a decision, just be willing, the actual doing of the turning over is something else for some other time, but that makes no sense to me.

sorry, no answer here from me, just my own difficulties. will be good to see how others did this.

welcome, Jay.

you might get something out of this, though it's not exactly the same : http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post4299515

JayStuart

Yes, that's nailed it. Turning some of our lives and will over I can understand, but the inference of being entire (there's an absence of the term some of) is something I am struggling with.

For the first time in a couple of months, this has actually made me quite angry and resentful. Towards some bloody words in a book ! Quite ridiculous how the mind works sometimes.

For the first time since I started attending, my small home group finished early tonight so we sat around having an open discussion, and I'm starting to come around a bit more to Step 3 than I have been. I shall keep contemplating........

Archelon

If you sponsor is Big Book as gospel type then I can see there being a tug of war, but many of us have worked the program with the alternate wording and idea of those other step 3 you posted.

This is what I did. Did I believe there was something, a set of principles, new way of living, making decisions instead of hiding in drink..that something, or set of somethings can get you living a sober life. I did. Didn't know what it was, but since so many get sober before me, yes, I believed I could somehow. And I was willing to find the things, things or process and follow it.

Didn't identify HP as something specific or give up my brain and whole life over to a group etc. I was willing to learn, change and grow in align with sobriety.

Here I am 7 years later. Many said if I wouldn't do it by the book or use the word god I would never make it. Oh well, glad I listened to the people who said I would make it!

I didn't understand how the steps would change my life. I did them, and not sure I understand now exactly, but I know doing them did change my life. I stopped trying to understand it all before I did it, and trusted that I would get it along the way.

Like skiing, only so much you can learn by reading and talking to people, you have to get out on the slopes.

Some say to me just to use the word god but have whatever idea I want in my mind, but I found using the word god felt wrong to me. So I didn't use it, and it didn't matter.

Soberpotamus

For me, Step 3 is where I decide to let go and begin to accept reality. I decide to open myself up to the possibilities that I have been delusional about some things during active addiction, and decide to face the facts. See it the way it is. See things in a new and better light.

I am agnostic and so God is pretty much irrelevant to me at this point. Step 3 is about accepting reality as it is. And deciding to proceed forward in my life, my sober life, with an open mind to possibilities, and being willing to see that my ways aren't always going to be right, or the best way, and that I am fallible, a human being who isn't perfect. And that I am part of a larger thing.

It is quite an astoundingly simple idea and concept, but sometimes takes a lot of pain to get to that point honestly and willingly.

So it's for me the part in the Serenity prayer (which is neutral when I say it, not godly in any way) where we "accept the things we cannot change." It is an ongoing process, not static.

Zencat

As a freethinker in AA I found the Agnostic 12-Steps resonated deep within my very being.BINGO! Now there is a step I can work and be authentic to who I am.

I needed guidance out of addiction. Fortunately there many great and effective ways to arrest alcoholism. Before recovery I lived my life as a drunken fool. I really needed to tap into wise resources and people that could aid me in my journey out of addiction.

Best wishes.

whalebelow

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
William Paley

FeenixxRising

Welcome to SR whalebelow. I believe you will find that most of the members who post on this sub-forum have done a lot of investigating without prior contempt. There are many well-read and thoughtful members here at SR, so you may want to do more than post Big Book quotes without any commentary of your own. Many of the members here who don't use AA are still well-versed with the Big Book and the program of AA.

whalebelow

It's well and good that you've heard it and other Sr members have too, but I'm guessing someone in early sobriety and 5 posts, might not have.

That's who I posted it for, the Op, it might help, it might not.

It helped me a whole lot, because that was me in a nutshell.

God wasn't going to do anything for me because I said so, and wasn't God / religion the cause of wars and etc.... but I'd never tried or asked.
Contempt prior to investigation.

When I asked.... Something quite incredible happened.

Your experiences might be different and that's all good.

FeenixxRising

I was just pointing out that commentary and sharing your experience might be more effective (IMO) along with a quote from the Big Book. It's all good though.