Sugah

We'd do well to help more folks learn the truth about themselves. I have seen people in both fellowships who are there for the social aspect -- they've had a problem with some substance and found they have few, if any, sober friends to hang out with, so they come to us to find them. It's not hard to spot those folks when they don't get a sponsor or a home group or work a step and seem to cruise along without a problem. Some actually do the deal and can drift away for months or years at a time, and life is grand. Got over that troublesome patch in their lives and never looked back.

Know what? I've seen a whole lot more of those folks in NA. They mistake the physical dependence on some substances as addiction. I'm an alcoholic. I'm an addict. The root cause is the same to me, and very little of it has to do with physical dependence on a substance. My mother, if she had taken pain pills for any length of time, would become dependent, but that wouldn't make her an addict. She'd get through withdrawal and never touch them again. That's how she was with alcohol -- she'd have a few, get sick as a dog the next day, and swear off for two, three, five years before she'd let anyone talk her into having a Christmas or birthday drink.

When it comes to addicts in AA meetings, I have tried, as keithj said, to help them discover the truth about themselves.

I have met some real alcoholics who have not had any drug history or haven't admitted to any difficulty with certain slippery prescription medications, though I will say that I have seen a fair number of alcoholics claim to have no problems with drugs end up suffering serious relapses on them.

I have yet to find a real drug addict who can drink with impunity.

My first sponsor (in AA) was a heroin addict -- but she identified as alcoholic in AA because, though it was not her "preferred" symptom, she drank in the same way she used heroin. And regardless of an addicts "preferred" poison, in the rooms of NA, you're not "clean" if you use any substance -- so someone coming in saying, "I'm an addict, and I only have problems with drugs (or one particular drug)" will learn very quickly that NA is a program of complete abstinence.

When I encounter newcomers who identify as an "and-a" or as an addict, I talk with them and qualify them both with the first paragraph of We Agnostics and with the underlying issues (the egotism, the fearfulness, the resentments). I discuss their history with them. If they decide they belong, I then give them the talk Jon's son got -- to identify dually or differently is the ego's attempt at being different. I do it as soon as possible because it took six months for someone to have the talk with me.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

DoubleBarrel

It kinda rubs me the wrong way when people in AA have to say, Im an alcoholic and an addict.

I was an addict too, but the point of AA is ALCOHOL. I cant control other people, and you have no idea what is in other peoples heads.

AA is pretty clear. Our common problem is alcohol, and anyone with a desire to stop drinking is welcome.

If she goes to meetings, and doesn't blather on about drug use, I'd mind my own business on the matter.

Boleo

While I have never been to a N.A. meeting, I have been to other fellowships. My way of doing it is:

"When in Rome - do as the Romans do".

Mountainmanbob

Although many do not do it, we ask of all that attend our AA meetings to share about their problems dealing with alcohol only.

Admitted - from what I have witnessed AA is a much better Program.

MM

RumHound

Are you saying that NA does not allow drinking alcohol? I did not know that about NA. Makes me wonder if the same is true of AA?

I don't think it is, actually.

Pagekeeper

This was a good read, thanks.

findingout

From the NA "How It Works" reading done at the start of most NA meetings:

"Thinking of alcohol as different from other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse. Before we came to NA, many of us viewed alcohol separately, but we cannot afford to be confused about this. Alcohol is a drug. We are people with the disease of addiction who must abstain from all drugs in order to recover."

CousinA

In NA, alcohol is just another drug.

-allan

RumHound

Yes, I see.

And in AA, alcohol is the only drug.

Ken33xx

Not long ago while on holiday I went to a meeting which turned out to be NA.

A woman with ten years of sobriety shared that recently she drank/smoked pot with her friend.

However, since her drug of choice and the reason for being in the room was meth she was quite adamant about not changing her sobriety date.

Gottalife

That was a great post Sugah, though perhaps a bit brave in suggesting that we ought to take responsibility for helping others see the truth about themselves, though I very much agree with you.

A point I would like to ask you about is bolded above. If I used heroin the same way I used alcohol, I would be dead on the first try. It is why I never smoked much dope. Too expensive when I consumed it alcoholically, which is what I did. I always thought addicts took there heroin in very carefully measured doses, just the right amount for the desired effect. With alcohol I just kept pouring it down until I passed out, it never occurred to me to take a measured dose.

What have I missed. It's probably obvious I know nothing of drug use.

TigerLili

Pagekeeper - You sound a bit too invested in Jane's meeting attendance. Anyone can go to an open meeting of AA. Whether she should be in AA or NA is not your call. You don't need to have an opinion on it, even if you are asked. You can just say "You need to make your own mind up on that." I wouldn't take it upon myself to weigh on on which fellowship someone should attend. I would encourage them to try it and see if it worked for them.

Plenty of people in my city go to AA who aren't alcoholics because there aren't enough of other types of meetings available or accessible to everyone. I know people who should be in NA but they go to AA because they work in areas of law enforcement that deal with drugs and drug users and they go to AA to preserve their anonymity.

Pete55

My primary problem was with alcohol, but with circumstances I did the drugs.
I got addicted to a few, but some how I was able to let go of the drugs before I found AA, NA or any recovery ideal

The point for me was, when I was doing my 4th step with an AA'r,
( big book sponsor) who never done drugs, but my drug past came up.

To find out what to do, I went to NA and have lots of respect for NA, have friends there that can drink moderately, but don't do drugs. They class themselves as recovering drug addicts.

What I found out about my truth was, I am not a drug addict, I took drugs of addiction, but I know well and truly I am a real alcoholic, I cannot drink alcohol, period.

I thank NA for this further enlightenment for finding out more truth on the street drug issues and the effects on me, long long time ago.

tomsteve

What would the master do?
Say no to someone wanting help?
All inclusive, never exclusive.

Could end up being a better trusted servant and member than many straight up alcoholics with many years under theirbelt

Sugah

That's the hand of AA. If they're reaching out for help by coming to a meeting, don't we have a responsibility to help them discover if they belong?

In 1988, a woman from AA came to visit me when I reached out for help. I was twenty years old at the time and fourteen years from the beginning of any lasting sobriety. I don't remember a lot of what she said to me, but I do remember these words, which became the litmus test for all my using, alcohol and other substances.

She said, "It doesn't matter what you drink, how often you drink, or even how much you drink. What matters is what happens to you when you drink." I'm sure we've all met drinkers in the rooms who were not daily drinkers or even weekly drinkers, but once they started, they couldn't stop. The cycle of obsession and compulsion began, and they rode it until they could step off or be pulled off the ride.

The first set of initials and dates in my signature represent a young lady who was just like that. I had been working with her and had helped her to discover that her drinking, though not daily, was of the alcoholic variety. We had I agreed I'd pick her up for her first meeting -- and then she cancelled at the last minute. She was white-knuckling to keep from taking a drink, and instead, went with her sister to get heroin. She died within 24 hours.

I survived so many overdoses, I can't count them. My first sponsor, too. I overdosed on a daily basis, primarily because those substances affected me differently than someone who didn't have a problem. I drank until I ran out or passed out. I used until I ran out or passed out. Both alcohol and "other drugs" are fatal if used alcoholically, sooner or later, and one of the reasons I try not to push young people with (primarily-but-not-exclusively) drug histories away before letting them decide if they belong with us is that the "other drugs" usually fall into the sooner category.

No better way to say this: NA sucks in my area. I've seen a lot of young people pushed out of AA by purists at the first mention of something other than alcohol (without ever trying to determine if they do, in fact, belong with us) and land in the obituary column.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Pagekeeper

I hear you, and you make very good points.

Truthfully, I'm not invested so much in Jane's meeting attendance. I understand anyone is welcome at an open AA meeting, and I told Jane as much. The essence of my question really had more to do with Step 12 and Tradition 3. "How does one 12-step a non-alcoholic addict?" and "Can a non-alcoholic addict become a member of AA?"

Keith answered the first part with his post and Boleo answered the second part with his post.

My wrong-doing in this situation, I believe, is that I dismissed the idea that Jane may very well be a real alcoholic, even though her drug problems are quite severe. I did Jane a disservice by not encouraging her to investigate a potential drinking problem.

The pamphlet Boleo posted also was helpful because it gave me further info on tradition 3, in light of this specific situation.

So, now I know a more productive and helpful way to approach this situation should it occur again.

mfanch

Are we parsing "pure alcoholic" with "pure addict"? It seems so.

I was in need of the twelve steps to recover. My last white chip was coming off the needle. There are almost no women in NA in my town (with sobriety who would sponsor) and there were drug deals going on in the parking lot. Plus, I was interested in abstinence and there were a lot of people on "maintenance drugs": suboxone/methadone at these meetings. It wasn't what I was looking for. I found a crack-head with over 20 years of sobriety and she got sober in AA, as she had a desire to quit drinking. She told me to go to AA.

So I did. Alcohol is a drug and I had a desire to quit all drugs and therefore drinking/alcohol. I will say that I did not immediately relate to Bill's story, but as I worked the steps, I found I was EXACTLY like him. To a tee. It was uncanny.

There are MANY people in my local meetings who are what-cha-got-aholics like me and AA works for them. BUT, what we ALL have in common is that we use the BB and follow the traditions. They, as well as I, have an abnormal relationship with alcohol. And I CAN fit myself into more than one of Bill's descriptions of an alcoholic.

A member of AA is a member if he has a desire to stop drinking. Period.

I also do not introduce myself in an AA meeting as: "hi, I'm mfanch and I'm an alcoholic, sex addict, drug addict". I just need to qualify for my seat, so "hi, I'm mfanch and I'm an alcoholic". The rest is on my 4th and 5th step.

paul99

Great thread.

I know one of one guy in treatment who had passed through the center for his heroin / opiate use. He felt his drinking wasn't anything to be alarmed about, now that his drugging was done with. Well, when I was there he was there for his alcoholism. Not all addicts are alcoholics and vice versa, but boy there are a lot of cross-addicted people in my area.

I have been to one NA meeting, and have nothing against NA. In fact, I am currently working the steps from NA using the NA workbook with an old timer right now (his idea. but I am really into it). So my view of NA is shifting, naturally. I know a lot of folks who complain that NA meetings aren't "good", so they come to AA to be with those with long sober time and for the fellowship. I also wonder if some of the addicts that come into AA even know if they are alcoholics...that is, do they "catch" alcoholism by being at meetings of AA? Is it my place to stop that process simply because they identify as an addict firstly? I like what Sugah said about helping the newcomer qualify. I think that is very important. And as long as the singleness of purpose is adhered to, I don't see an issue with someone from NA being in an AA meeting. If I can help anyone out in anyway, then it's win-win.

Pagekeeper

Probably not really funny, but I had to laugh at this because I can so relate. I would most definitely be dead if I was a heroin addict who used like the alcoholic I was.

Although, I suppose I did measure my alcohol in a way--I would keep a close watch on how much was left in the bottle (so I could buy more before I ran out) ...

Hawks

My sponsor is an alcoholic, who tried Heroin whilst under the influence.

He used Heroin as often as he could afford it & get hold of it, when he couldn't afford or find it, he drank.

That's about as much as I know from what he has told me, I don't know or need to know or want to know much else.

We live in a city of 4.2 million people, he looked everywhere for decent NA meetings, but all he found was what you've described Pagekeeper.

He shares about his problems with alcohol at AA and leaves it at that.

He couldn't find the 12 step program in NA. Seems it only existed in banner form on the walls.

I can't think why anyone in AA would seek to deny an addict the chance to recover in a group that is practising & teaching the 12 steps.

I know a lot of "just go to meetings, just don't drink" groups have a big problem with addicts ... I've seen it first hand & witnessed the chatter afterwards, about the addict who just left, those kinds of meetings.