Mark75

But in this forum, AAs should be able to come and say that they believe AA is the best recovery method, because I always understood that this was a safe place to do that, that like minded individuals are their audience... Like the OP... That's not arrogance, that's sharing enthusiasm and experience strength and hope. It's not promotion either.

So the OP shouldn't be sad then, for those who don't understand?

We disagree ...I never once heard arrogance from either the OP or from Boleo in this thread. Maybe some from me, but that is not unusual.

I'm sad that SR has become so AA unfriendly that even in our own section we can trumpet the success that we find in the program.

See ya....

RobbyRobot

Sure, speaking for THEMSELVES, yeah, no problem. However, when the same speaker speaks for OTHERS outside of AA suggesting AA would also be the best for OTHERS too - that is arrogance and vanity pure and simple.

It's whomever's choice to be sad for whatever reasons they want - being sad for others who CHOOSE NOT to be with AA has no direct relationship with ideal AA - so then that experience felt by the OP is a total personal choice which of course is not representative of AA proper.

Okay, so you don't pick up on the arrogance. I do. There are absolutely GOOD REASONS why some discussions are shared best in a CLOSED meeting, and if you can't get that either, then you perhaps need to re-visit your own perceptions of what AA is and what AA ISN"T.

As for the "see ya" comment - you're better than that, Mark!

ru12

EDIT


Robby said it better than I could.

LadyBlue0527

and the entire reason for my post:

This was posted today and by a newcomer. I can't put why I posted what I did any more plain and simple than that.

freshstart57

Baleine is well on her way to an unconditional permanent sobriety. She has found what she needs, she has found her answer. She is laughing with joy and relief that she knows now that her dependency on alcohol is over forever. I am not sad for her, LadyBlue. This is truly a triumph of the human spirit, and I take great pleasure in watching this happen. I share in her excitement and joy.

I am sad too, LadyBlue, but for much different reasons. I wish we could all of us be happy for her.

Ohio1

I think what Lady blue is getting at is what I have started to see in AA- people showing up, thinking "wow I figured out the addiction that was ruining my life!!!", then 3 weeks later you never see them again. Then a month later they show up looking like hell going "WTF happened to me?". Honestly I think this internet forum is conducive to that process, and I'm starting to think maybe this isn't a very good format for discussing and dealing with addiction.

Soberpotamus

And all along it was THIS particular mindset that I had issue with... Are you saying here, Mark, that you are of the opinion that those who are non-AA couldn't be seeking a spiritual solution? Or, rather, seeking spirituality in general in their lives? Furthermore, are you saying that non-AA's can't attain spiritual enlightenment.

Boleo, are you of the opinion that non-AA's can't attain spiritual enlightenment?

Because THAT is all I take issue with here...

... the seeming arrogance wasn't bothering me at all, I was having a giggle over the vehicle references, btw.

And I must say... that first part of your statement, Mark, about not getting it or getting it and rejecting it... that's just wrong. I'm here to tell ya. You've made a false dichotomy there.

RobbyRobot

Its an excellent forum for sharing discussions of experience in dealing with or having dealt with addictions. Of course there are times when things can get very personal and subjectivity gets a little thick, but what are you gonna do?! Throw out the whole discussion because of personal disagreements?

And they are personal after all, yeah? Whatever our experiences are, they are not superior to some one else's. We can self-justify a kind of superiority, but just because so and so says whatever, doesn't mean that everyone else is necessarily dumbfounded or obligated to agree in kind. Mutual Respect is essential and required for discussions to have meaning and value. Differences are not to be side-lined or kicked around for the sake of rhetoric.

Nothing turns this guy off more then somebody telling me that unless I choose what they have chosen, I can't have practical equality with them in my own life. Well, equality is best experienced in mutually respective relationships with others no matter whatever personal differences may exist.

I enjoy my uniqueness. I expect others to enjoy theirs as well. When they don't, I really don't care one way or the other because that is their choice and so not really my business. When they assume they need to inform me that my ways are somehow insufficient based on their own personal experience as they reflect and think upon my own experiences, then they are of course being nothing more than rhetorical with me.

Rhetoric has its place of course. I don't believe its a successful technique for helping others help themselves however, is my thinking anyways.

Soberpotamus

I agree with you, and I am probably guilty of doing it myself.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, in my early years of being recovered, rhetoric was also used by me too to make whatever salient point which at the time seemed so damned important. Now, not so much, lol.

Soberpotamus

Yeah well you've got 30 years on me, Robby Haha!

Wish I had 30 years sobriety already!!

RobbyRobot

Yeah, and I started at my relative beginning too, same as you. Hey, you're getting there too with enjoying longevity eventually, so no worries!!

Boleo

YET

You're
Eligible
To

Boleo

So did my sister. She drank a few times between her 21st birthday and her 22nd birthday. Decided she did not like it and never drank again.

No what else she never does... She never gives advice to alcoholics about how to stay sober.

Boleo

Are you not overlooking another elephant in the room here? I have had both the not-drinking experience AND the Spiritual Awakening experience. I am in a position to comment on them both.

Can you honestly say that? If not, thank you for sharing your inexperience with us.

LadyBlue0527

Wow, are you a lawyer? I challenge you to find any post that I have made within this thread where I said that I'm not happy for people who have found sobriety regardless of what their program of choice is. I'm just as ecstatic for Baleine that what has been found is working. I'm looking very much forward to your reply but I expect that there will be none.

My OP was about newcomers who don't want to be involved in AA. The fact that they use the reasons that they aren't religious nor do they believe in admitting that they are powerless. What I copied into this thread was a perfect example of the basis for my OP. It was not meant to make light of Rational Recovery techniques.

I went on to state in my original post that there is far more to the program than that. If a person chooses to believe that AA is a religious organization where you must admit that you're powerless over alcohol and they have never put the time and effort into working the steps then I find that to be sad.

AA works for some and it doesn't work for others. So be it.

If I knew that I was going to create an uproar by my post I would have never even expressed what I did. However, multiple times in this thread I have professed my happiness at anyone achieving sobriety regardless of the method used.

I'm editing this post to state that there is one grave error that I made in using that in this thread. I should have removed the name of the person posting and made it non identifying. That was extremely wrong of me. The last statement just made compliments of a portion of what I have learned in AA. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I will promptly admit it.

Soberpotamus

Boleo

I try to talk about the Matt Talbot experience as much as I possibly can. He stayed sober for 45 years without ever having an opportunity to talk to another alcoholic.

I could care less if people think I'm arrogant. I am talking about subject matter so esoteric, that even the smartest people around are not likely to understand it (as suggested in the O.P.). It must be EXPERIENCED to be understood. Those who have not EXPERIENCED it are simply expressing an opinion about an EXPERIENCE which they have not yet had.

I have had a lot of people pressuring me to dummy-down my message. Is that really for the greater good here, in this forum where we are supposed to carry a strong message?

I don't dummy-down my message for ANYBODY. Not even for AA good-old-timers who have yet to experience what I have experienced. Call it spiritual pride, call it arrogant if you want. I call it total commitment to the following principle:

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics..."

RobbyRobot

Let's see now...I can go all out with my awesome Nissan 370Z Roadster... or my VW Touareg TDI... or with my wife's BMW Z4.. or with her Mercedes SL... or with her Chrysler PT Cruiser... or even my Kawasaki Mule ATV comes to mind. Hmmm. Choices and more choices. Can't do any of them at the same time though, lol.

Yeah, its like that.

Fandy

I'm sure that Boleo's "experience" and postings has deterred many who might have had questions about AA.

But like he said, he's committed to "his principles" and doesn't care. What a message he sends to others....(drink my arrogant kool-aide or be damned, you can't imagine what I have)? sorry, I see it as sooo much baloney.

OP, it was a good thread, but got waylaid. As you are new yourself, it's something to consider for the future.

it is Saturday afternoon! I have shopped, cleaned and am relaxing a bit before cooking dinner...I'm sober and life is good.