Alcoholism disease concept
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Alcoholism disease concept
Just looking for some thoughts and maybe an interesting debate.
Do you look at alcoholism as a three fold illness / disease ?
or alcoholism being of 2 components...mind and body, ie recover from a hopeless mind and body.
or here is my thinking after some debate and discussions with another www.
Alcoholism isn't in fact a disease,....alcoholism is just a syndrome or symptom..of a much more deep rooted problem....... separation from god, a spiritual malady.
Does it matter, or is it just semantics?, well i think it matters hugely , in a way, to call it threefold is kinda making all components of equal importance and i believe.......the real killer is the spiritual sickness.
Because......being free from alcohol ...in no way guarantees my peace of mind and happiness .
Being re-connected to a power does......if i put the foot work in.
Its kinda like calling it 3 fold, when 2 components ( mind and body) are the size of sheep.........a the other ( spiritual malady) is the size of an elephant .
Does that make sense..?
Do you look at alcoholism as a three fold illness / disease ?
or alcoholism being of 2 components...mind and body, ie recover from a hopeless mind and body.
or here is my thinking after some debate and discussions with another www.
Alcoholism isn't in fact a disease,....alcoholism is just a syndrome or symptom..of a much more deep rooted problem....... separation from god, a spiritual malady.
Does it matter, or is it just semantics?, well i think it matters hugely , in a way, to call it threefold is kinda making all components of equal importance and i believe.......the real killer is the spiritual sickness.
Because......being free from alcohol ...in no way guarantees my peace of mind and happiness .
Being re-connected to a power does......if i put the foot work in.
Its kinda like calling it 3 fold, when 2 components ( mind and body) are the size of sheep.........a the other ( spiritual malady) is the size of an elephant .
Does that make sense..?
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sorry, no debate out of me Shaun. I'm with you on the syndrome/symptom of separation from God.
I'm too lazy to click on Boleo's links for now (lol) but I've heard some pretty convincing cases made on the disease concept when the definitions of what a disease IS are broken down and examined.
Personally, I don't care what ppl call it. I go back and forth on my opinion, really.
Right or wrong, I play Switzerland in the disease concept debate. I see both sides, can half-ass argue either.....but don't really care much about it in the end.
I'm too lazy to click on Boleo's links for now (lol) but I've heard some pretty convincing cases made on the disease concept when the definitions of what a disease IS are broken down and examined.
Personally, I don't care what ppl call it. I go back and forth on my opinion, really.
Right or wrong, I play Switzerland in the disease concept debate. I see both sides, can half-ass argue either.....but don't really care much about it in the end.
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Because......being free from alcohol ...in no way guarantees my peace of mind and happiness
My peace and happyness come second to the welfare and saftey of innocent people that may be around me. Everything else I work on as I am able. Using alcohol is not an option, regardless of the label that I apply to it. This isn't an academic exercise to me; its a mandate.
My peace and happyness come second to the welfare and saftey of innocent people that may be around me. Everything else I work on as I am able. Using alcohol is not an option, regardless of the label that I apply to it. This isn't an academic exercise to me; its a mandate.
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Yep, i get you mike.....and its wasn't meant to be a game of semantics really.
BUT, ........ i think it does matter when working with others, i believe it makes it easier to understand the dilemma., that its not the alcoholism that will get you first......something proceeds that ...kinda like lets talk all day long about the scab and how bad the scab is......when really the kicker is the cut underneath.
The reason why i bought this up was, i have always been sponsored with the disease concept....alcoholism is a disease, 3 fold.....and ive changed my thinking, .....alcoholism is 2 fold scab over the real disease...the one that will get you swinging from a rope without even drinking, gambling,eating, drugging, etc.....
seems trivial.........BUT .....dunno, kinda stopped me in my tracks this week .....like a light bulb moment
BUT, ........ i think it does matter when working with others, i believe it makes it easier to understand the dilemma., that its not the alcoholism that will get you first......something proceeds that ...kinda like lets talk all day long about the scab and how bad the scab is......when really the kicker is the cut underneath.
The reason why i bought this up was, i have always been sponsored with the disease concept....alcoholism is a disease, 3 fold.....and ive changed my thinking, .....alcoholism is 2 fold scab over the real disease...the one that will get you swinging from a rope without even drinking, gambling,eating, drugging, etc.....
seems trivial.........BUT .....dunno, kinda stopped me in my tracks this week .....like a light bulb moment
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Originally Posted by shaun00 
The reason why i bought this up was, i have always been sponsored with the disease concept....alcoholism is a disease, 3 fold.....and ive changed my thinking, .....alcoholism is 2 fold scab over the real disease...the one that will get you swinging from a rope without even drinking, gambling,eating, drugging, etc.....
seems trivial.........BUT .....dunno, kinda stopped me in my tracks this week .....like a light bulb moment
seems trivial.........BUT .....dunno, kinda stopped me in my tracks this week .....like a light bulb moment
As far as the two fold, three-fold deal you mentioned, we're on the same page still. LOL. When I'm working with someone NEW, I use the 3-fold approach and talk about the allergy.....being different. I really keep the use of "disease" to a minimum unless I'm using is in the sense of dis-ease......ie, not at ease. The word "disease" tends to bring up too much BS.....kinda like "real alcoholic." So, I just don't use it.
Anyway, new guys I use 3 fold problem.....because it's simple for them to understand. As they progress, and if they start to get it, then I start discussing some of the more esoteric / deeper philosophies like it's ALL spiritual sickness (IMO) that manifests in the physical and mental deals....when then are visible in the drinking....etc etc.
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Originally Posted by Pinkcuda
This is what puts a lot of people at odds. Whether it's a disease or not. It's not. It's an illness which is different than a disease. A disease can be detected with a litmus test while an illness can not. Very seldom do you hear about a hospital for the mentally "Diseased". It's "Mentally Ill" folks.
Compare this illness to any other type of mental disorder. Is Anorexia BS? How bout Kleptomania? Some type of OCD? The list goes on. Those that are sitting on the outside can only speculate and accuse weak will of being the main catalyst in this self destructive behavior.
As long as we run around calling this a "Disease" we'll be creating skeptics that are dismissive of our condition.
It's an "Illness" and as the book says it centers in our mind and our drinking is but a symptom. Whether you're AA or not it's very difficult to contest that statement.
Compare this illness to any other type of mental disorder. Is Anorexia BS? How bout Kleptomania? Some type of OCD? The list goes on. Those that are sitting on the outside can only speculate and accuse weak will of being the main catalyst in this self destructive behavior.
As long as we run around calling this a "Disease" we'll be creating skeptics that are dismissive of our condition.
It's an "Illness" and as the book says it centers in our mind and our drinking is but a symptom. Whether you're AA or not it's very difficult to contest that statement.
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Bill Wilson would agree:
"We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer term for us to use."
"We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer term for us to use."
--Bill Wilson at the National Clerical Conference on Alcoholism convention, April 21, 1960
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Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I'm no closer to God now than before I quit drinking.
Recovery doesn't seem to require any God connection that I can see.
Recovery doesn't seem to require any God connection that I can see.
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Originally Posted by shaun00
Alcoholism isn't in fact a disease,....alcoholism is just a syndrome or symptom..of a much more deep rooted problem....... separation from god, a spiritual malady.
Does it matter, or is it just semantics?, well i think it matters hugely , in a way, to call it threefold is kinda making all components of equal importance and i believe.......the real killer is the spiritual sickness.
Because......being free from alcohol ...in no way guarantees my peace of mind and happiness .
Being re-connected to a power does......if i put the foot work in.
Does it matter, or is it just semantics?, well i think it matters hugely , in a way, to call it threefold is kinda making all components of equal importance and i believe.......the real killer is the spiritual sickness.
Because......being free from alcohol ...in no way guarantees my peace of mind and happiness .
Being re-connected to a power does......if i put the foot work in.
At no time does by spiritulism require a supernatural deity to effectively relieve me of my drinking problem. I need only to come to an understanding of a power greater then myself.
When speaking to me about spiritual seperation from God, ie a supernatural deity, THE ONE GOD, then things are completely different, and as a Christian, now we are talking about sin seperating me from God, and not alcoholism.
My sobriety has nothing to do with my Christianity, my sins, my redemptions, my seperation from God, etc.
Is my alcoholism a sin?
No.
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Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I'm no closer to God now than before I quit drinking.
Recovery doesn't seem to require any God connection that I can see.
Recovery doesn't seem to require any God connection that I can see.
Being closer to God is a choice made. Without a free will choice, where and what is God?
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as an essential element of my alcoholism.
That was the kicker i was trying to verbalise but couldn't very well.
My thinking ...There no element to alcoholism apart from ..mind and body, ie physical craving and a mental obsession..
Spiritual malady/ separation from god/ the hole in the soul.....is a separate animal....another illness in itself if you like.
That malady is sometime prevalent in others without alcohol being present...or any other form of ease and comfort ..imo.
So spiritual malady is separate deal.....it just so happens that booze is a perfect medication for it ......Maybe i drank to much coffee again lol
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Of course, I made haste to point out that we A. A.'s did not use the concept of sickness to absolve our members from moral responsibility. On the contrary, we used the fact of fatal illness to clamp the heaviest kind of moral responsibility on to the sufferer. The further point was made that in his early days of drinking the alcoholic often was no doubt guilty of irresponsibility and gluttony. But once the time of compulsive drinking, veritable lunacy had arrived and he couldn't very well be held accountable for his conduct. He then had a lunacy which condemned him to drink, in spite of all he could do; he had developed a bodily sensitivity to alcohol that guaranteed his final madness and death. When this state of affairs was pointed out to him, he was placed immediately under the heaviest kind of pressure to accept A.A.'s moral and spiritual program of regeneration -namely, our Twelve Steps. Fortunately, Mr. Link was satisfied with this view of the use that we were making of the alcoholic's illness. I am glad to report that nearly all theologians who have since thought about this matter have also agreed with that early position. While it is most obvious that free will in the matter of alcohol has virtually disappeared in most cases, we A.A. 's do point out that plenty of free will is left in other areas, It certainly takes a large amount of willingness, and a great exertion of the will to accept and practice the A.A. program. It is by this very exertion of the will that the alcoholic corresponds with the grace by which his drinking obsession can be expelled. (Bill Wilson N.C.C.A. 'Blue Book',© Vol.12, 1960)
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Originally Posted by UpperbucksAAguy
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Originally Posted by DayTrader
You worked through all 12 steps and didn't have ANY God connection or any connection with any sort of power other than yourself?
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"No...sorry. I suppose I should have made that clear. I did not recover through AA, I did it on my own with the help of AVRT. "
Many ways up the mountain and I respect that. But might I ask why you are posting on a 12 step forumn? Not trying to be confrontational at all, just curious
Many ways up the mountain and I respect that. But might I ask why you are posting on a 12 step forumn? Not trying to be confrontational at all, just curious
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Originally Posted by UpperbucksAAguy
"No...sorry. I suppose I should have made that clear. I did not recover through AA, I did it on my own with the help of AVRT. "
Many ways up the mountain and I respect that. But might I ask why you are posting on a 12 step forumn? Not trying to be confrontational at all, just curious
Many ways up the mountain and I respect that. But might I ask why you are posting on a 12 step forumn? Not trying to be confrontational at all, just curious
Didn't realize that's where I was!
I hope I'm not the only one that finds this funny. Please carry on...I will make myself scarce.
Gentlemen...good day.
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