So I'm not supposed to say anything to AH?
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 6
So I'm not supposed to say anything to AH?
I went to an Alanon meeting today and the topic was expectations.
August 4 in The Little Blue Book ONE DAY at a TIME in AL-ANON:
One source of frustration we seldom recognize is in expecting too much of others or expecting too specifically what we feel they ought to be, say, give or do.
If I expect another person to react in a certain way to a given situation, and he or she fails to meet my expectation, have I the right to be disappointed or angry?
Many people shared about their alcoholic loved one doing what they want to or are compelled to do (as in drinking a lot) and how the alanon member doesn't say or share their disappointment. In other words, Live and Let Live.
I'm struggling to NOT say anything to my A.Husband when he gets so drunk that he's stumbling and slurring. It makes me so angry. I worked last night and my AH had a ticket to go to a concert. Since we have one car I dropped him off and would pick him up after the concert. Of course I knew he'd have some alcohol but the amount and his condition just hit my hot button. I was texting him to let him know where I was parked. He kept replying some nonsense. Then he called me and wow--he could barely spit out coherent words.
I was driving around, saw him on the sidewalk and he was stumbling sideways. I had to drive around the block because he just couldn't see our car. I ended up stopping in the road and blaring the horn so he'd find me. He's a 56 year old man going to a concert and drinking like a 20 year old. I was enraged!!! I was just swearing up a blue streak as I was trying to get him to see the car.
So today I said nothing about how asinine and pathetic he looked. I wouldn't have worded it like that though! But now that I go to alanon I feel that I'm not supposed to let him know my feelings about his behavior....am I??
People in meetings go on about how the alcoholic has to make their own choices and we are supposed to detach, I get that but I can't say to him the morning after, HOLY CRAP---WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?
I guess me saying things in the past hasn't changed him. Maybe I just answered my own question. I guess I'm looking for words of wisdom from people who have been attending Alanon for a while. Do you really ignore the elephant in the room?
I hope my post is somewhat clear. I'm still shocked by seeing my husband in that state walking the streets of our town. I'm angry and disgusted.
August 4 in The Little Blue Book ONE DAY at a TIME in AL-ANON:
One source of frustration we seldom recognize is in expecting too much of others or expecting too specifically what we feel they ought to be, say, give or do.
If I expect another person to react in a certain way to a given situation, and he or she fails to meet my expectation, have I the right to be disappointed or angry?
Many people shared about their alcoholic loved one doing what they want to or are compelled to do (as in drinking a lot) and how the alanon member doesn't say or share their disappointment. In other words, Live and Let Live.
I'm struggling to NOT say anything to my A.Husband when he gets so drunk that he's stumbling and slurring. It makes me so angry. I worked last night and my AH had a ticket to go to a concert. Since we have one car I dropped him off and would pick him up after the concert. Of course I knew he'd have some alcohol but the amount and his condition just hit my hot button. I was texting him to let him know where I was parked. He kept replying some nonsense. Then he called me and wow--he could barely spit out coherent words.
I was driving around, saw him on the sidewalk and he was stumbling sideways. I had to drive around the block because he just couldn't see our car. I ended up stopping in the road and blaring the horn so he'd find me. He's a 56 year old man going to a concert and drinking like a 20 year old. I was enraged!!! I was just swearing up a blue streak as I was trying to get him to see the car.
So today I said nothing about how asinine and pathetic he looked. I wouldn't have worded it like that though! But now that I go to alanon I feel that I'm not supposed to let him know my feelings about his behavior....am I??
People in meetings go on about how the alcoholic has to make their own choices and we are supposed to detach, I get that but I can't say to him the morning after, HOLY CRAP---WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?
I guess me saying things in the past hasn't changed him. Maybe I just answered my own question. I guess I'm looking for words of wisdom from people who have been attending Alanon for a while. Do you really ignore the elephant in the room?
I hope my post is somewhat clear. I'm still shocked by seeing my husband in that state walking the streets of our town. I'm angry and disgusted.
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,784
I completely understand your frustration and anger, but in my own experience, I sometimes have found utter silence to be the best strategy. It drives them nuts, if nothing else. 
Non violent resistance. Don't use up your strength on something you can't change.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
Coffee-
First I want to validate your feelings. I felt when I first started recovery that not saying something meant I was not entitled to feel them. That is not what I believe now.
I am curious about why you feel compelled to say something to him? Is he in a place that he can hear it? Are you saying it to try and change his behavior or make him see the light of what he is doing?
I found as I healed that I was saying a lot of things to try and convince my loved one that was a problem drinker that he had a problem......at the same time I was trying to make life comfortable for him so he would not want to drink. I was under the impression that I was at fault for not finding the right combination or way to say it so he would hear me.
What mixed messages I sent as a result. What a lot of time I spent walking on eggshells around him and did not spend it being true to me.
I have since come to realize that my loved one drank because he was an alcoholic. He did not drink at me, he drank because of the compulsion for him to drink. My words were not going to win in a fight against this compulsion, especially if he was intoxicated; and later he might not remember (he black out drank).
I did learn to share my feelings about his drinking with safe people in my life, Al-Anon members, my therapist, my friends. Those are different though, they are validating and supporting me....and what I have a say over my healing, my feelings and where I choose to invest my energy.
First I want to validate your feelings. I felt when I first started recovery that not saying something meant I was not entitled to feel them. That is not what I believe now.
I am curious about why you feel compelled to say something to him? Is he in a place that he can hear it? Are you saying it to try and change his behavior or make him see the light of what he is doing?
I found as I healed that I was saying a lot of things to try and convince my loved one that was a problem drinker that he had a problem......at the same time I was trying to make life comfortable for him so he would not want to drink. I was under the impression that I was at fault for not finding the right combination or way to say it so he would hear me.
What mixed messages I sent as a result. What a lot of time I spent walking on eggshells around him and did not spend it being true to me.
I have since come to realize that my loved one drank because he was an alcoholic. He did not drink at me, he drank because of the compulsion for him to drink. My words were not going to win in a fight against this compulsion, especially if he was intoxicated; and later he might not remember (he black out drank).
I did learn to share my feelings about his drinking with safe people in my life, Al-Anon members, my therapist, my friends. Those are different though, they are validating and supporting me....and what I have a say over my healing, my feelings and where I choose to invest my energy.
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Where I’ve longed to be all my life…..here, now.
Posts: 7,340
Hi coffee.
Thank you for sharing. It sounds like you are living in a very stressful situation, one of opposing feelings—too bad to stay, too good to leave.
It makes turmoil for those of us in conflict.
I was married to an alcoholic ( before I became one 15 years later) who decided to put himself in rehab. I went to my local alanon and it was NOT good for me.
I went to the rehab ‘partner’ of alcoholic meeting. The question posed to us from the staff was “when your alcoholic relapses, and they will most likely, how will you react?”
And the question was answered one by one with something along the line of “oh, I’ll support/him her no matter what, just keep working on recovery” etc. Then the same question came to me. And I said “oh, I’m leaving!!! I know alcohol means more than anything to an addict—job, family, food, house”
I did leave. And I don’t regret a day. I believe he lost everything ....
Years later, I’m addicted to alcohol. And I still believe my quote. In the throws of addiction we need it and we can’t control it.
Please take care of what you need for you.
There is lots of support and love for you here. Keep posting
Thank you for sharing. It sounds like you are living in a very stressful situation, one of opposing feelings—too bad to stay, too good to leave.
It makes turmoil for those of us in conflict.
I was married to an alcoholic ( before I became one 15 years later) who decided to put himself in rehab. I went to my local alanon and it was NOT good for me.
I went to the rehab ‘partner’ of alcoholic meeting. The question posed to us from the staff was “when your alcoholic relapses, and they will most likely, how will you react?”
And the question was answered one by one with something along the line of “oh, I’ll support/him her no matter what, just keep working on recovery” etc. Then the same question came to me. And I said “oh, I’m leaving!!! I know alcohol means more than anything to an addict—job, family, food, house”
I did leave. And I don’t regret a day. I believe he lost everything ....
Years later, I’m addicted to alcohol. And I still believe my quote. In the throws of addiction we need it and we can’t control it.
Please take care of what you need for you.
There is lots of support and love for you here. Keep posting
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
coffeezest…….I am not an authority about alanon since I am not a practicing member....
I have been in more than one marriage, though...(I divorced my first husband)….
My last marriage was wonderful (he passed, suddenly, from an unexpected illness)…..
I think that one is entitled to express one's feelings, honestly, to their mate.
I think that communication is very important...even crucial...in an intimate relationship..
I, also, believe that one is entitled to one's own feelings. Feelings are real---now we choose to handle them, of course, is an individual judgement....
I have worked, professionally, with alcoholics....and, one of the first things that I learned, is that, there is no point in talking to someone when they are drunk...for a variety of reasons....and, I learned to not give any weight to anything that they say when they are drinking.... Actually, that applies to anyone who is drinking....not just alcoholics, lol....(people trash talk when they are drinking)….
I think you may be thinking of the concept of "detachment" ...that is, sometimes, recommended, when one is choosing to live with an alcoholic....in order to prevent one (especially, a co-dependent)...from so much entanglement with the alcoholic, that it becomes the center of your life, to your detriment....I think that it is also recommended that one learn to recognize "quacking".....so as to protect yourself from reacting to every stupid or crazy thing that comes out of their mouth...to save yourself from getting sucked into ridiculous and emotionally wearing arguments/discussions....
I take these as measures to protect your own self.....
I believe that there is a line for everything, though. I believe that we have to use our free will to use our own judgement, in every situation....
Unacceptable behavior....if it is unacceptable to us...then we have a right to say so, if we want to......or, to establish boundaries, to protect ourselves....
It is up to each of us to decide what we are willing to live with...and how much detachment we want in our relationships.
Some people have a high tolerance for some behaviors.....other people...not so much...
To be honest....if my husband did what you describe....I know that I would have given him a great deal of feedback, when he became sober...I would have described how his behavior made me fearful and afraid...and, angry....
(Remember that people who are that drunk, are likely to be blacked out...and not remember much of anything, the next day)…..
About expectations.....I think that one learns what is reasonable to expect of others...and our partner.
It is unreasonable to expect an alcoholic not to get soaking drunk...because they don't have any off buttons, once they have the first drink.....and, especially, at a music concert, where drinking and certain drugs are the norm....
There is a long list of what we can't reasonably expect from an alcoholic.....
And, the list can be pretty unsavory....depending on the progression of their illness....
I am sharing some of my thoughts on this subject...I hope that some of it is helpful for you....
I have been in more than one marriage, though...(I divorced my first husband)….
My last marriage was wonderful (he passed, suddenly, from an unexpected illness)…..
I think that one is entitled to express one's feelings, honestly, to their mate.
I think that communication is very important...even crucial...in an intimate relationship..
I, also, believe that one is entitled to one's own feelings. Feelings are real---now we choose to handle them, of course, is an individual judgement....
I have worked, professionally, with alcoholics....and, one of the first things that I learned, is that, there is no point in talking to someone when they are drunk...for a variety of reasons....and, I learned to not give any weight to anything that they say when they are drinking.... Actually, that applies to anyone who is drinking....not just alcoholics, lol....(people trash talk when they are drinking)….
I think you may be thinking of the concept of "detachment" ...that is, sometimes, recommended, when one is choosing to live with an alcoholic....in order to prevent one (especially, a co-dependent)...from so much entanglement with the alcoholic, that it becomes the center of your life, to your detriment....I think that it is also recommended that one learn to recognize "quacking".....so as to protect yourself from reacting to every stupid or crazy thing that comes out of their mouth...to save yourself from getting sucked into ridiculous and emotionally wearing arguments/discussions....
I take these as measures to protect your own self.....
I believe that there is a line for everything, though. I believe that we have to use our free will to use our own judgement, in every situation....
Unacceptable behavior....if it is unacceptable to us...then we have a right to say so, if we want to......or, to establish boundaries, to protect ourselves....
It is up to each of us to decide what we are willing to live with...and how much detachment we want in our relationships.
Some people have a high tolerance for some behaviors.....other people...not so much...
To be honest....if my husband did what you describe....I know that I would have given him a great deal of feedback, when he became sober...I would have described how his behavior made me fearful and afraid...and, angry....
(Remember that people who are that drunk, are likely to be blacked out...and not remember much of anything, the next day)…..
About expectations.....I think that one learns what is reasonable to expect of others...and our partner.
It is unreasonable to expect an alcoholic not to get soaking drunk...because they don't have any off buttons, once they have the first drink.....and, especially, at a music concert, where drinking and certain drugs are the norm....
There is a long list of what we can't reasonably expect from an alcoholic.....
And, the list can be pretty unsavory....depending on the progression of their illness....
I am sharing some of my thoughts on this subject...I hope that some of it is helpful for you....
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,644
I actually believe in live and let live - but I don't think that needs to be confused with not saying anything when their behaviour is out of line and affects you?
Whether he was drunk out of his head or not is even a bit beside the point. The fact that he put you out by not be capable of even knowing when you were right there to pick him up, for sure I would mention it if I wanted to.
I think the point of what was said in Al-Anon is what are you hoping to gain?
Well in this case a person's reaction is their reaction, whatever that is, that seems reasonable enough. I also think you have the right to feel anyway you want to feel about it - heck even share that feeling. Just don't expect someone else to change their view because you don't like it.
I think what they are saying is why would YOU beat your head against that particular wall.
It's not about giving the alcoholic a free pass to treat you as they feel they like or to do anything that makes you unhappy. If you take the focus off the alcoholic that last paragraph is all about you, not them.
That also doesn't mean you have to live in total frustration while keeping silent. It's about using the tools to detach yourself from the alcoholism.
Again, why would you beat your head against that wall. Nothing you say or do, no amount of anger or frustration, yelling, cajoling, kindness or love will cure alcoholism.
You didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it. He doesn't have a problem with his drinking, you have a problem with his drinking. Ideally that would make a difference to him, but in practice it doesn't.
The drive to drink is strong and nothing you say will change it.
So no, it's not ignoring the alcoholic's behaviour, it's asking you to decide what (if anything) you are going to do about it, from your area of control, which is only, you.
Whether he was drunk out of his head or not is even a bit beside the point. The fact that he put you out by not be capable of even knowing when you were right there to pick him up, for sure I would mention it if I wanted to.
I think the point of what was said in Al-Anon is what are you hoping to gain?
One source of frustration we seldom recognize is in expecting too much of others or expecting too specifically what we feel they ought to be, say, give or do.
If I expect another person to react in a certain way to a given situation, and he or she fails to meet my expectation, have I the right to be disappointed or angry?
If I expect another person to react in a certain way to a given situation, and he or she fails to meet my expectation, have I the right to be disappointed or angry?
Many people shared about their alcoholic loved one doing what they want to or are compelled to do (as in drinking a lot) and how the alanon member doesn't say or share their disappointment. In other words, Live and Let Live.
It's not about giving the alcoholic a free pass to treat you as they feel they like or to do anything that makes you unhappy. If you take the focus off the alcoholic that last paragraph is all about you, not them.
That also doesn't mean you have to live in total frustration while keeping silent. It's about using the tools to detach yourself from the alcoholism.
Again, why would you beat your head against that wall. Nothing you say or do, no amount of anger or frustration, yelling, cajoling, kindness or love will cure alcoholism.
You didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it. He doesn't have a problem with his drinking, you have a problem with his drinking. Ideally that would make a difference to him, but in practice it doesn't.
The drive to drink is strong and nothing you say will change it.
So no, it's not ignoring the alcoholic's behaviour, it's asking you to decide what (if anything) you are going to do about it, from your area of control, which is only, you.
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: east coast
Posts: 532
See if you can get the pamphlet The Merrygoround Called Denial- it is from Alanon. I am not a big fan of Alanon, but it has helped me at times. At meetings I would hear some wisdom and I would also hear stuff that was not helpful and it was hard for me to tell the difference.
At Alanon one lady told me the following: Alcoholics see the world like a television set with the sound turned off. It doesn't matter what you SAY- they don't even hear it. It is more important what you DO.
My XAH didn't respond to any of my words of wisdom over 33 years. I finally left. He wanted me back, but made no promises to change that I could believe. I started looking myself at what he actually DID, instead of what he SAID. Someone who promises to quit drinking but keeps dozens of opened and unopened bottles of liquor around and won't go to AA is not planning on quitting drinking.
At Alanon one lady told me the following: Alcoholics see the world like a television set with the sound turned off. It doesn't matter what you SAY- they don't even hear it. It is more important what you DO.
My XAH didn't respond to any of my words of wisdom over 33 years. I finally left. He wanted me back, but made no promises to change that I could believe. I started looking myself at what he actually DID, instead of what he SAID. Someone who promises to quit drinking but keeps dozens of opened and unopened bottles of liquor around and won't go to AA is not planning on quitting drinking.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Hi.
Full disclosure.
I am a total Al-Anon fan.
It helped me a lot, as well as many others.
I don’t think that Al-Anon advocates passivity toward the addict, though every meeting is different, and I have at times heard from others that they were uncomfortable with the acceptance level in meetings.
That is not my experience.
I think that Al-Anon can help us define boundaries, as well as acknowledge the strong emotions we feel toward the addict in our lives.
Not sure from your post what you hoped or expected to happen when your SO went to a concert, but that he was drunk out of his mind and couldn’t recognize that you were there to pick him up is, to me, an expected consequence of alcohol addiction.
Music, booze. No brakes.
Maybe next time, should there be one, he makes his own ride arrangements, leaving you out of it altogether.
It’s a boundary for you, not him.
I recognize that such a result may cause worry for you. Where is he? Is he okay? Maybe I should check on him?
This is all part of detaching from the behavior you find unacceptable.
You can’t control the addict. You can only control you and your responses.
This is a tough one, I know.
Good luck and good thoughts.
Full disclosure.
I am a total Al-Anon fan.
It helped me a lot, as well as many others.
I don’t think that Al-Anon advocates passivity toward the addict, though every meeting is different, and I have at times heard from others that they were uncomfortable with the acceptance level in meetings.
That is not my experience.
I think that Al-Anon can help us define boundaries, as well as acknowledge the strong emotions we feel toward the addict in our lives.
Not sure from your post what you hoped or expected to happen when your SO went to a concert, but that he was drunk out of his mind and couldn’t recognize that you were there to pick him up is, to me, an expected consequence of alcohol addiction.
Music, booze. No brakes.
Maybe next time, should there be one, he makes his own ride arrangements, leaving you out of it altogether.
It’s a boundary for you, not him.
I recognize that such a result may cause worry for you. Where is he? Is he okay? Maybe I should check on him?
This is all part of detaching from the behavior you find unacceptable.
You can’t control the addict. You can only control you and your responses.
This is a tough one, I know.
Good luck and good thoughts.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Beach
Posts: 1,106
coffeezest, I was married to an alcoholic for a long time. I understand exactly how furious, worried and ashamed you were about your husband's public display of intoxication, which was also a serious inconvenience to you.
I agree with the the sentiment that you voicing your opinion to your husband will likely not garner you any meaningful results as far as his behavior goes. And I agree that spending your energy working on yourself is a far better use of your precious strength.
However... I feel spouses should be able to voice their opinions or talk about their feelings with each other. His poor choices have affected you in negative ways and I don't think he deserves a pass on that. There were times I did tell my AXH what affect his drinking was having on me and our marriage. It never stopped him from behaving that way, but I felt better for having spoken my truth.
One time he woke up on the couch looking like death and smelling even worse. He wanted to know what time we were leaving for town (we lived in a rural area) I was ready to go and on my way out the door, I told him he wasn't coming with me. He was put out I didn't want him to come with and demanded to know why. I said," I love you but I hate your "effing" disease. I am so disappointed in the way you behaved last night. I'm sad you keep choosing booze over fixing our marriage. The smell of alcohol and rot coming from you is horrendous and no way in hell do I want to have to smell you in the truck all the way to town, plus it's embarrassing to me when you smell like a drunk in public... I am done, DONE, enabling this crap"
I left. When I got home he was gone...on another bender. He came home after midnight. He told me it was my fault he was wasted because I had hurt his feelings with what I had said and that I was lucky he came home at all and hadn't shot himself instead. ( Can you count how many things are wrong with that?!)
So I guess my point is, I think it is OK to tell your spouse they've done something you find upsetting. You are entitled to your feelings! ... But when you are saying things like that to an addict, they aren't going to receive the message the same way a sane person would, they just aren't capable.
I'm sorry you are going through this crap. I remember it well, it sucks!
*hugs*
I agree with the the sentiment that you voicing your opinion to your husband will likely not garner you any meaningful results as far as his behavior goes. And I agree that spending your energy working on yourself is a far better use of your precious strength.
However... I feel spouses should be able to voice their opinions or talk about their feelings with each other. His poor choices have affected you in negative ways and I don't think he deserves a pass on that. There were times I did tell my AXH what affect his drinking was having on me and our marriage. It never stopped him from behaving that way, but I felt better for having spoken my truth.
One time he woke up on the couch looking like death and smelling even worse. He wanted to know what time we were leaving for town (we lived in a rural area) I was ready to go and on my way out the door, I told him he wasn't coming with me. He was put out I didn't want him to come with and demanded to know why. I said," I love you but I hate your "effing" disease. I am so disappointed in the way you behaved last night. I'm sad you keep choosing booze over fixing our marriage. The smell of alcohol and rot coming from you is horrendous and no way in hell do I want to have to smell you in the truck all the way to town, plus it's embarrassing to me when you smell like a drunk in public... I am done, DONE, enabling this crap"
I left. When I got home he was gone...on another bender. He came home after midnight. He told me it was my fault he was wasted because I had hurt his feelings with what I had said and that I was lucky he came home at all and hadn't shot himself instead. ( Can you count how many things are wrong with that?!)
So I guess my point is, I think it is OK to tell your spouse they've done something you find upsetting. You are entitled to your feelings! ... But when you are saying things like that to an addict, they aren't going to receive the message the same way a sane person would, they just aren't capable.
I'm sorry you are going through this crap. I remember it well, it sucks!
*hugs*
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
I think the idea of not saying something is not to protect the alcoholic, but to spare yourself the further frustration of trying to get the alcoholic to validate your feelings about his behavior.
Your feelings are valid, with or without his consent. If it were me I would probably mention it, but only by way of letting him know he couldn't count on me for rides in the future. Your time is better spent than chauffeuring around someone who can't even stay sober enough to recognize the car, no?
Your feelings are valid, with or without his consent. If it were me I would probably mention it, but only by way of letting him know he couldn't count on me for rides in the future. Your time is better spent than chauffeuring around someone who can't even stay sober enough to recognize the car, no?
Member
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 184
Coffeezest, I totally get your concern. I didn’t find AlAnon helpful and, in fact, I often left feeling worse. Like someone else mentioned, not all groups are the same and maybe we didn’t get good ones. I always felt like I was being encouraged to let him live his life regardless of what his drinking and behavior were doing to me and the other souls in the house.
When I had something to say to him I usually waited until the next morning when there was at least some likelihood that he was sober. Talking to him when drunk was futile; he was blacked out every single day and I learned quickly that he had no recollection of what he did or said (he was abusive). That didn’t detract from his responsibility; however. When I could find that sweet spot of time between him waking up, and before he had his first drink, if I needed to say something to him, I did it then. You do have to speak your own truth and holding it all in and letting him think the reality of the world was only what he lived—I couldn’t do it. On the flip side was the fact that, even when I talked to him, he denied it—the “I didn’t do anything!” “It wasn’t my fault!” And that hurt me maybe even more than his actions did. It was a total no-win until he was removed from the house.
I totally understand you pain and your feeling of being helpless; damned if I do say something and damned if I don’t. I wish I had more to give or to offer you. Now that he’s gone, and I’m not living with the A day-to-day, life has more peace, but to be honest, I still struggle with how he treated me to this day. I lived it a long time and the scars are still here.
Best to you. Big hugs.
When I had something to say to him I usually waited until the next morning when there was at least some likelihood that he was sober. Talking to him when drunk was futile; he was blacked out every single day and I learned quickly that he had no recollection of what he did or said (he was abusive). That didn’t detract from his responsibility; however. When I could find that sweet spot of time between him waking up, and before he had his first drink, if I needed to say something to him, I did it then. You do have to speak your own truth and holding it all in and letting him think the reality of the world was only what he lived—I couldn’t do it. On the flip side was the fact that, even when I talked to him, he denied it—the “I didn’t do anything!” “It wasn’t my fault!” And that hurt me maybe even more than his actions did. It was a total no-win until he was removed from the house.
I totally understand you pain and your feeling of being helpless; damned if I do say something and damned if I don’t. I wish I had more to give or to offer you. Now that he’s gone, and I’m not living with the A day-to-day, life has more peace, but to be honest, I still struggle with how he treated me to this day. I lived it a long time and the scars are still here.
Best to you. Big hugs.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Thanks so much to each of you who replied! I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom. I will re-read many times.
Since I've been reading these forums I'm starting to see alcoholism as a disease. For years I've thought of alcoholics as selfish and weak. I thought they could stop drinking easily, like I do after one or two drinks if they really wanted to. Boy, was I ever naive.
My marriage has been a long, rocky road. My husband is a good guy. When he's not drinking, life is good and easy. It's a nice life UNTIL the bottle comes out. He's an extreme binge drinker and not an everyday drinker.
I've been giving a lot of thought to LifeRecovery's question of why I feel compelled to say something. My initial reaction was to be angry and give him the silent treatment (like my mom did to my dad) or to go down the list of what it was like to see him plastered and vulnerable in public.
I want him to know what he looks like when he's that drunk. Perhaps it's the idea that I could make him stop drinking when he finds out the shocking details of his actions. I also want to tell him how weak, ridiculous and pathetic he appears. I want to hurt him, like his drinking has hurt me.
But I'm starting to understand that none of that will matter to him once he takes his first drink. It's never just one drink.
Thanks again for your messages. I spend quite a lot of time reading these forums. I'm not sure if I will continue going to Alanon meetings. I get more help and information here.
Since I've been reading these forums I'm starting to see alcoholism as a disease. For years I've thought of alcoholics as selfish and weak. I thought they could stop drinking easily, like I do after one or two drinks if they really wanted to. Boy, was I ever naive.
My marriage has been a long, rocky road. My husband is a good guy. When he's not drinking, life is good and easy. It's a nice life UNTIL the bottle comes out. He's an extreme binge drinker and not an everyday drinker.
I've been giving a lot of thought to LifeRecovery's question of why I feel compelled to say something. My initial reaction was to be angry and give him the silent treatment (like my mom did to my dad) or to go down the list of what it was like to see him plastered and vulnerable in public.
I want him to know what he looks like when he's that drunk. Perhaps it's the idea that I could make him stop drinking when he finds out the shocking details of his actions. I also want to tell him how weak, ridiculous and pathetic he appears. I want to hurt him, like his drinking has hurt me.
But I'm starting to understand that none of that will matter to him once he takes his first drink. It's never just one drink.
Thanks again for your messages. I spend quite a lot of time reading these forums. I'm not sure if I will continue going to Alanon meetings. I get more help and information here.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 514
Hi Coffee,
I don't know much about Alanon other than what I read, as I myself was the alcoholic in the situation. You have obviously gained valuable perspective on the disease, as you now see it for what it is - a disease that renders the alcoholic unable to stop drinking once they have started. It is not necessarily this way for every alcoholic, but it seems that I was the same way as your husband: not an every day drinker, but an out of control binge drinker. I can't have one, or two, or three; my brain thinks I need a bottomless pit of booze once I have one.
Like AA, I see Alanon as a support group of suggestions and guidance on possible ways to deal with a common problem. You shouldn't view it as instructions or a set of rules, as each person's circumstances are different. For example, some alcoholics need to be confronted once sober or they will dismiss what they did as not that bad. That's how I used to be. I would wake up with a blurry vision of what may or may not have happened while wasted the previous night, and if no one said anything, I would assume things weren't that bad. When friends and family confronted me in a calm, concerned way, however, that would hit me hard. I hated hearing how much I worried, inconvenienced, and angered everyone with my actions.
You know your husband -- do what you think might have an impact on him for the better. I agree that at the end of the day, he is the only one that can make the decision to stop, and you shouldn't spin your wheels trying to convince him. At the same time, however, you have the right to speak your mind and let him know what he did and its effect on you.
People who don't drink like a binge drinker sometimes don't believe that blackouts are real, and seem to think that we are deluding ourselves or using the "blackout excuse" as a form of denial. While this is sometimes the case, I can attest in utter honesty (and horror) that blackouts are real, and there were many many nights that I simply do not remember. For this reason, I wouldn't always rely on his own conscience to kick in, Coffeezest.
I don't know much about Alanon other than what I read, as I myself was the alcoholic in the situation. You have obviously gained valuable perspective on the disease, as you now see it for what it is - a disease that renders the alcoholic unable to stop drinking once they have started. It is not necessarily this way for every alcoholic, but it seems that I was the same way as your husband: not an every day drinker, but an out of control binge drinker. I can't have one, or two, or three; my brain thinks I need a bottomless pit of booze once I have one.
Like AA, I see Alanon as a support group of suggestions and guidance on possible ways to deal with a common problem. You shouldn't view it as instructions or a set of rules, as each person's circumstances are different. For example, some alcoholics need to be confronted once sober or they will dismiss what they did as not that bad. That's how I used to be. I would wake up with a blurry vision of what may or may not have happened while wasted the previous night, and if no one said anything, I would assume things weren't that bad. When friends and family confronted me in a calm, concerned way, however, that would hit me hard. I hated hearing how much I worried, inconvenienced, and angered everyone with my actions.
You know your husband -- do what you think might have an impact on him for the better. I agree that at the end of the day, he is the only one that can make the decision to stop, and you shouldn't spin your wheels trying to convince him. At the same time, however, you have the right to speak your mind and let him know what he did and its effect on you.
People who don't drink like a binge drinker sometimes don't believe that blackouts are real, and seem to think that we are deluding ourselves or using the "blackout excuse" as a form of denial. While this is sometimes the case, I can attest in utter honesty (and horror) that blackouts are real, and there were many many nights that I simply do not remember. For this reason, I wouldn't always rely on his own conscience to kick in, Coffeezest.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
My experience in AlAnon taught me to STOP ignoring the elephant in the room.
Never ignore the elephant! That pretending is the heart of denial and kept me very very anxious and sick.
The point I took away from what you heard at your meeting was about expectations.
I must and do express my genuine feelings. I started telling my brothers to their face (say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean) exactly how their behavior made me feel, how their drinking caused me pain or suffering.
However I had to learn to stop doing it with the idea it could get them to change. I did it because I play by the rules of normal relationships. But the miracle that happens, when I detach from expecting change in THEM is that the change happens in ME.
I can think of one time, we were in our twenties, I had been in AlAnon for about a year, my brother got so drunk at a family wedding he pissed himself, giant urine stains on his suit pants, couldn't hold himself upright, couldn't speak. I was mortified, we had gone together, I was driving. I had a cousin help me get him in the car and brought him to his apartment. Next day I went to see him and just told him how awful it was to see him like that, how embarrassed I was for him and for the scene he made at the wedding, and that I feared for his health and safety if that's how he goes about the world.
He started to grumble and bitch and deflect and tell me to pi** off etc, as any hungover alkie will.
But because of what I learned in AlAnon I didn't take the bait, because I learned that my WORDS, while important for me to express honestly so that I wasn't ashamed or covering up for him or living in denial, were not going to DO anything, I set a rule that I stick to to this day. I am no longer giving you rides, or helping you get to events, it is too painful for me to have a front row seat to your self-destruction. Period. And so it is. I just stopped doing the things that were hurting me, and the things that were actually helping his addiction.
No it didn't make a difference in the progression of his addiction. That's the fantasy I learned to let go of in AlAnon. It made a huge difference for me though! By stepping way off and protecting my own mental health I stopped riding the merry go round that made me so crazy and upset, I got my own peace of mind in line.
Not easy. All the things I learned in AlAnon demanded action on my part. Not words or anything intended to sway the alkie, a complete letting go of that idea.....and once I let go of it by not playing denial games and not continuing MY same enabling behaviors things got so much better in my head and in my life.
Peace,
B
Never ignore the elephant! That pretending is the heart of denial and kept me very very anxious and sick.
The point I took away from what you heard at your meeting was about expectations.
I must and do express my genuine feelings. I started telling my brothers to their face (say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean) exactly how their behavior made me feel, how their drinking caused me pain or suffering.
However I had to learn to stop doing it with the idea it could get them to change. I did it because I play by the rules of normal relationships. But the miracle that happens, when I detach from expecting change in THEM is that the change happens in ME.
I can think of one time, we were in our twenties, I had been in AlAnon for about a year, my brother got so drunk at a family wedding he pissed himself, giant urine stains on his suit pants, couldn't hold himself upright, couldn't speak. I was mortified, we had gone together, I was driving. I had a cousin help me get him in the car and brought him to his apartment. Next day I went to see him and just told him how awful it was to see him like that, how embarrassed I was for him and for the scene he made at the wedding, and that I feared for his health and safety if that's how he goes about the world.
He started to grumble and bitch and deflect and tell me to pi** off etc, as any hungover alkie will.
But because of what I learned in AlAnon I didn't take the bait, because I learned that my WORDS, while important for me to express honestly so that I wasn't ashamed or covering up for him or living in denial, were not going to DO anything, I set a rule that I stick to to this day. I am no longer giving you rides, or helping you get to events, it is too painful for me to have a front row seat to your self-destruction. Period. And so it is. I just stopped doing the things that were hurting me, and the things that were actually helping his addiction.
No it didn't make a difference in the progression of his addiction. That's the fantasy I learned to let go of in AlAnon. It made a huge difference for me though! By stepping way off and protecting my own mental health I stopped riding the merry go round that made me so crazy and upset, I got my own peace of mind in line.
Not easy. All the things I learned in AlAnon demanded action on my part. Not words or anything intended to sway the alkie, a complete letting go of that idea.....and once I let go of it by not playing denial games and not continuing MY same enabling behaviors things got so much better in my head and in my life.
Peace,
B
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 681
I agree with this 100%. They shouldn't get a free pass. They probably won't remember it or care, but at least you get it out. Then we have to move on or it will eat us up.
Originally Posted by SmallButMighty 
coffeezest, I was married to an alcoholic for a long time. I understand exactly how furious, worried and ashamed you were about your husband's public display of intoxication, which was also a serious inconvenience to you.
I agree with the the sentiment that you voicing your opinion to your husband will likely not garner you any meaningful results as far as his behavior goes. And I agree that spending your energy working on yourself is a far better use of your precious strength.
However... I feel spouses should be able to voice their opinions or talk about their feelings with each other. His poor choices have affected you in negative ways and I don't think he deserves a pass on that. There were times I did tell my AXH what affect his drinking was having on me and our marriage. It never stopped him from behaving that way, but I felt better for having spoken my truth.
One time he woke up on the couch looking like death and smelling even worse. He wanted to know what time we were leaving for town (we lived in a rural area) I was ready to go and on my way out the door, I told him he wasn't coming with me. He was put out I didn't want him to come with and demanded to know why. I said," I love you but I hate your "effing" disease. I am so disappointed in the way you behaved last night. I'm sad you keep choosing booze over fixing our marriage. The smell of alcohol and rot coming from you is horrendous and no way in hell do I want to have to smell you in the truck all the way to town, plus it's embarrassing to me when you smell like a drunk in public... I am done, DONE, enabling this crap"
I left. When I got home he was gone...on another bender. He came home after midnight. He told me it was my fault he was wasted because I had hurt his feelings with what I had said and that I was lucky he came home at all and hadn't shot himself instead. ( Can you count how many things are wrong with that?!)
So I guess my point is, I think it is OK to tell your spouse they've done something you find upsetting. You are entitled to your feelings! ... But when you are saying things like that to an addict, they aren't going to receive the message the same way a sane person would, they just aren't capable.
I'm sorry you are going through this crap. I remember it well, it sucks!
*hugs*
I agree with the the sentiment that you voicing your opinion to your husband will likely not garner you any meaningful results as far as his behavior goes. And I agree that spending your energy working on yourself is a far better use of your precious strength.
However... I feel spouses should be able to voice their opinions or talk about their feelings with each other. His poor choices have affected you in negative ways and I don't think he deserves a pass on that. There were times I did tell my AXH what affect his drinking was having on me and our marriage. It never stopped him from behaving that way, but I felt better for having spoken my truth.
One time he woke up on the couch looking like death and smelling even worse. He wanted to know what time we were leaving for town (we lived in a rural area) I was ready to go and on my way out the door, I told him he wasn't coming with me. He was put out I didn't want him to come with and demanded to know why. I said," I love you but I hate your "effing" disease. I am so disappointed in the way you behaved last night. I'm sad you keep choosing booze over fixing our marriage. The smell of alcohol and rot coming from you is horrendous and no way in hell do I want to have to smell you in the truck all the way to town, plus it's embarrassing to me when you smell like a drunk in public... I am done, DONE, enabling this crap"
I left. When I got home he was gone...on another bender. He came home after midnight. He told me it was my fault he was wasted because I had hurt his feelings with what I had said and that I was lucky he came home at all and hadn't shot himself instead. ( Can you count how many things are wrong with that?!)
So I guess my point is, I think it is OK to tell your spouse they've done something you find upsetting. You are entitled to your feelings! ... But when you are saying things like that to an addict, they aren't going to receive the message the same way a sane person would, they just aren't capable.
I'm sorry you are going through this crap. I remember it well, it sucks!
*hugs*
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
But I'm starting to understand that none of that will matter to him once he takes his first drink. It's never just one drink.
or even before he has taken a drink. drinking is his friend/buddy/escape/lover/reward/freedom. that is his mindset....and that is the dis-ease......doing that which we know brings harm to ourselves and upsets normal functioning.
perhaps reflect back on you being in the car, hearing his incoherent voice on the phone, seeing him staggering and stumbling. this is for all intents and purposes, your PERSON, the one you are currently living with on a daily basis. this is what he has to offer you. as a drinker he is at least consistent in his behavior.
last week. last month. last year.
i completely understand that we don't always have the option to run out the door screaming and never return. that our lives are complex and intertwined and we don't always have the bankroll to set up two separate residences. we have mortgages, and obligations, and children, and pets that must be considered. and sometimes, we ARE kind of "stuck" at least for a time.
creating a life in spite of it all is a challenge. detaching from the drunken idiot is easier said than done.
baby steps. baby boundaries. baby plans.
or even before he has taken a drink. drinking is his friend/buddy/escape/lover/reward/freedom. that is his mindset....and that is the dis-ease......doing that which we know brings harm to ourselves and upsets normal functioning.
perhaps reflect back on you being in the car, hearing his incoherent voice on the phone, seeing him staggering and stumbling. this is for all intents and purposes, your PERSON, the one you are currently living with on a daily basis. this is what he has to offer you. as a drinker he is at least consistent in his behavior.
last week. last month. last year.
i completely understand that we don't always have the option to run out the door screaming and never return. that our lives are complex and intertwined and we don't always have the bankroll to set up two separate residences. we have mortgages, and obligations, and children, and pets that must be considered. and sometimes, we ARE kind of "stuck" at least for a time.
creating a life in spite of it all is a challenge. detaching from the drunken idiot is easier said than done.
baby steps. baby boundaries. baby plans.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,792
Coffee,
I was with my addict for 34 years and I had done everything... was quiet, yelled while drunk, yelled the next morning, cried, gave him the silent treatment, threatened, begged, bribed, and pleaded. I have to tell you "nothing worked". What good did it do for me to let him know, so then he has more guilt of his behavior and more reason to drink. To me silence was best and let him wonder what he did the night before. What purpose did it do either of us to discuss it? He was never going to change.... "he didn't want to be one of those people that didn't drink".
Once I detached from his behavior and let him own it, I got the strength to do what I needed to do. He would literally suck the joy out of my life daily if I let him.
I detached, and over time, divorced him. I thank God everyday for the strength to do that. Sending hugs, its not easy.
I was with my addict for 34 years and I had done everything... was quiet, yelled while drunk, yelled the next morning, cried, gave him the silent treatment, threatened, begged, bribed, and pleaded. I have to tell you "nothing worked". What good did it do for me to let him know, so then he has more guilt of his behavior and more reason to drink. To me silence was best and let him wonder what he did the night before. What purpose did it do either of us to discuss it? He was never going to change.... "he didn't want to be one of those people that didn't drink".
Once I detached from his behavior and let him own it, I got the strength to do what I needed to do. He would literally suck the joy out of my life daily if I let him.
I detached, and over time, divorced him. I thank God everyday for the strength to do that. Sending hugs, its not easy.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 681
Al-anon helps many people, but isn't for everyone, and that's ok. It wasn't helpful for me, but these forums are immensely helpful, as well as counseling. Do what works best for you. 😍
Originally Posted by coffeezest
Thanks so much to each of you who replied! I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom. I will re-read many times.
Since I've been reading these forums I'm starting to see alcoholism as a disease. For years I've thought of alcoholics as selfish and weak. I thought they could stop drinking easily, like I do after one or two drinks if they really wanted to. Boy, was I ever naive.
My marriage has been a long, rocky road. My husband is a good guy. When he's not drinking, life is good and easy. It's a nice life UNTIL the bottle comes out. He's an extreme binge drinker and not an everyday drinker.
I've been giving a lot of thought to LifeRecovery's question of why I feel compelled to say something. My initial reaction was to be angry and give him the silent treatment (like my mom did to my dad) or to go down the list of what it was like to see him plastered and vulnerable in public.
I want him to know what he looks like when he's that drunk. Perhaps it's the idea that I could make him stop drinking when he finds out the shocking details of his actions. I also want to tell him how weak, ridiculous and pathetic he appears. I want to hurt him, like his drinking has hurt me.
But I'm starting to understand that none of that will matter to him once he takes his first drink. It's never just one drink.
Thanks again for your messages. I spend quite a lot of time reading these forums. I'm not sure if I will continue going to Alanon meetings. I get more help and information here.
Since I've been reading these forums I'm starting to see alcoholism as a disease. For years I've thought of alcoholics as selfish and weak. I thought they could stop drinking easily, like I do after one or two drinks if they really wanted to. Boy, was I ever naive.
My marriage has been a long, rocky road. My husband is a good guy. When he's not drinking, life is good and easy. It's a nice life UNTIL the bottle comes out. He's an extreme binge drinker and not an everyday drinker.
I've been giving a lot of thought to LifeRecovery's question of why I feel compelled to say something. My initial reaction was to be angry and give him the silent treatment (like my mom did to my dad) or to go down the list of what it was like to see him plastered and vulnerable in public.
I want him to know what he looks like when he's that drunk. Perhaps it's the idea that I could make him stop drinking when he finds out the shocking details of his actions. I also want to tell him how weak, ridiculous and pathetic he appears. I want to hurt him, like his drinking has hurt me.
But I'm starting to understand that none of that will matter to him once he takes his first drink. It's never just one drink.
Thanks again for your messages. I spend quite a lot of time reading these forums. I'm not sure if I will continue going to Alanon meetings. I get more help and information here.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
The thought for the day is about expectations.
I'm a 'double-winner' by the way, going to AA but also dealing with others whose drinking I find problematic (they don't, so I won't call them an alcoholic, thats
their side of the street).
One day I went to my AA meeting absolutely fuming after a phone conversation with one of these people. I got there and chatted to an old timer who made the mistake of asking me how I was, and regaled to him what a selfish, inconsiderate, unreliable, dishonest arse this person had been.
The Old timer said to me something along the lines of "Berry, that's terrible. Let me ask you, has he ever been that way before?"
I told him emohatically, "Yes. He's always been that way. For decades!"
He responded, "Then why did you think today he was going to be different?"
I was so angry with that old timer that evening. I seethed at him all through the meeting, but gradually I realised that my expectations of this person are based on what I've read in books, or seen on films or in commercials, or heard about from others talking about their own family. My expectations need to be based on my experiences of that person, otherwise I'm going to be disappointed every darned time I have contact with them, or think about them, or remember old times, or someone talks about them. Since I managed to get my expectations around this person more realistic it hasn't changed them, or their behaviour, but it has meant that it causes me less pain.
As far as telling the person afterwards what a watsit they were... well, you can try. But if it doesn't suit them to believe you then they won't, and if they do believe you they're likely to hold it against you for forcing the pain it causes on to them, which is why alcoholic behaviour tends to become the elephant in the room, which actually I don't think is healthy. But then I don't think that living with an active alcoholic is healthy generally, with the strained emotions that go with it, not knowing if you're going to get the great guy or the alcoholic gibberish guy, and all the insanity that goes with living with someone whose acting insanely. But, if I'm going to make that choice it's important for me to use every tool there is. This place, 12-step programs, friends, prayer, counsellors. And on the worst weekends I have to remember that this is my choice, and I have every right to change my mind and leave if I feel that's what I need or want to do.
Hugs to you, and sorry if there are no straightforward cut and dried answers for you. Boundaries can be made (by you) and they can be very helpful. My partner knows that if hes got to gibberish stage then I don't take him in the car. That is my boundary which I explained to him, because when he's at that stage he questions every manoeuvre or turn I make. One time he got hysterical thinking I was taking him somewhere other than home (I was going the normal way home). At first it was almost funny, then I realised he was serious and got scared. Even when he's not completely delusional the criticism enraged me and then I DO end up driving badly, so I don't consider it desirable or safe to drive him when he's drunk. How he gets home is then HIS problem. He knows the boundary and drank regardless of it. He reminds me all the time of how darned smart he is, so he can figure it out himself. I've only had to enforce that boundary a couple of times and funny, he seems to avoid that one now. Mostly by drinking within walking distance of home, but hey, at least I'm not gonna have to kill the both of us by driving in an enraged state, lol.
Another boundary I have is that I don't engage in any conversation with him while he's drunk. That infuriates him sometimes, but again, that's his choice to get in that state and he infuriates me if i do engage with him at those times. I try to make sure I'm in bed when he comes home so I can feign sleep as that's the easiest way.
Not saying I've got it right. It's all a work in progress.
BB
I'm a 'double-winner' by the way, going to AA but also dealing with others whose drinking I find problematic (they don't, so I won't call them an alcoholic, thats
their side of the street).
One day I went to my AA meeting absolutely fuming after a phone conversation with one of these people. I got there and chatted to an old timer who made the mistake of asking me how I was, and regaled to him what a selfish, inconsiderate, unreliable, dishonest arse this person had been.
The Old timer said to me something along the lines of "Berry, that's terrible. Let me ask you, has he ever been that way before?"
I told him emohatically, "Yes. He's always been that way. For decades!"
He responded, "Then why did you think today he was going to be different?"
I was so angry with that old timer that evening. I seethed at him all through the meeting, but gradually I realised that my expectations of this person are based on what I've read in books, or seen on films or in commercials, or heard about from others talking about their own family. My expectations need to be based on my experiences of that person, otherwise I'm going to be disappointed every darned time I have contact with them, or think about them, or remember old times, or someone talks about them. Since I managed to get my expectations around this person more realistic it hasn't changed them, or their behaviour, but it has meant that it causes me less pain.
As far as telling the person afterwards what a watsit they were... well, you can try. But if it doesn't suit them to believe you then they won't, and if they do believe you they're likely to hold it against you for forcing the pain it causes on to them, which is why alcoholic behaviour tends to become the elephant in the room, which actually I don't think is healthy. But then I don't think that living with an active alcoholic is healthy generally, with the strained emotions that go with it, not knowing if you're going to get the great guy or the alcoholic gibberish guy, and all the insanity that goes with living with someone whose acting insanely. But, if I'm going to make that choice it's important for me to use every tool there is. This place, 12-step programs, friends, prayer, counsellors. And on the worst weekends I have to remember that this is my choice, and I have every right to change my mind and leave if I feel that's what I need or want to do.
Hugs to you, and sorry if there are no straightforward cut and dried answers for you. Boundaries can be made (by you) and they can be very helpful. My partner knows that if hes got to gibberish stage then I don't take him in the car. That is my boundary which I explained to him, because when he's at that stage he questions every manoeuvre or turn I make. One time he got hysterical thinking I was taking him somewhere other than home (I was going the normal way home). At first it was almost funny, then I realised he was serious and got scared. Even when he's not completely delusional the criticism enraged me and then I DO end up driving badly, so I don't consider it desirable or safe to drive him when he's drunk. How he gets home is then HIS problem. He knows the boundary and drank regardless of it. He reminds me all the time of how darned smart he is, so he can figure it out himself. I've only had to enforce that boundary a couple of times and funny, he seems to avoid that one now. Mostly by drinking within walking distance of home, but hey, at least I'm not gonna have to kill the both of us by driving in an enraged state, lol.
Another boundary I have is that I don't engage in any conversation with him while he's drunk. That infuriates him sometimes, but again, that's his choice to get in that state and he infuriates me if i do engage with him at those times. I try to make sure I'm in bed when he comes home so I can feign sleep as that's the easiest way.
Not saying I've got it right. It's all a work in progress.
BB
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